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[LifeIsLife]

I dont understand why people seem to think this game is pay to win or complain about legendaries. Ive never bought a pack, i dont think any of my decks im using have any legendaries at all and im able to play, have fun and deal with 90% of what is out there. Most of the time i lose to better play or simply because i dont get the card draws i need.

TLR stop complaining about P2W and just get better

 

[Nibiru]

"P2W", to me, is an advantage that you can only get through paying. Getting there faster isn't necessarily "P2W" in my book.

It certainly is. If I'm playing World of Warcraft and you can either raid for months to kill the last boss and hope for an epic sword OR you can just buy the sword for X amount there is no question that is p2w.

There are rarely any games where you can just get something by purchasing it pretty much every f2p game is about "speeding up" how fast you get something by using money. By your definition there are hardly any p2w games.

Every single ios farming game by your definition isn't p2w because what you buy is the ability to speed up your crops. Technically you don't NEED to do this but if you don't do this it can take you weeks as opposed to minutes to accomplish the same things.

As for Hearthstone in particular I have seen many f2p runs to legendary so i don't consider this game to be p2w BUT it's pretty close. Eitherway you can do pretty well not buying packs. I do recommend making a one time purchase of 40 packs and consider it as buying the game. This is more than enough to make fantastic decks.

 

[shadowstar]

The issue seems to be that a lot of new players can't seem to fathom that people have been playing this game for months and have more experience and cards because of this. They have to blame $$/p2w/anything but themselves because personal responsibility is hard.

It certainly is. If I'm playing World of Warcraft and you can either raid for months to kill the last boss and hope for an epic sword OR you can just buy the sword for X amount there is no question that is p2w.

There are rarely any games where you can just get something by purchasing it pretty much every f2p game is about "speeding up" how fast you get something by using money. By your definition there are hardly any p2w games.

Every single ios farming game by your definition isn't p2w because what you buy is the ability to speed up your crops. Technically you don't NEED to do this but if you don't do this it can take you weeks as opposed to minutes to accomplish the same things.

As for Hearthstone in particular I have seen many f2p runs to legendary so i don't consider this game to be p2w BUT it's pretty close. Eitherway you can do pretty well not buying packs. I do recommend making a one time purchase of 40 packs and consider it as buying the game. This is more than enough to make fantastic decks.

The difference is that having every card in Hearthstone doesn't make you better. You give a new player every card for control warrior and they'll still suck.

 

[Strider]

I've always thought of the game as a "pay to do better" type deal. You can pay, get all the cards and craft the best deck in the meta and do ok... But at the end of the day a good player can do well regardless if they pay or not and a bad player is never going to do great regardless of what cards they have.

There's too many players that have reached legendary on free-to-play accounts and using cheap decks to say this game is full on pay-to-win.

 

[FStop7]

If your definition of "winning" at Hearthstone is the acquisition of rare cards, then yes - it's pay to "win."

But if that's your definition of winning you're wrong, because Hearthstone is about winning games. And in that case it's not pay to win, as has been demonstrated time, and time, and time again.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

F2P or "play to win" works as a designation for this game. It isn't free but you don't need to pay either. Even cards are largely side-grades of eachother, which can be hard to see since you can compare a 1 mana card to a 10 mana card and come to the conclusion that O M G the 10 mana card blows the 1 mana card away. Even when comparing two cards from the same price range you could improperly value the text or the stats and therefore come to the wrong conclusion.

Added on top of that, cards aren't designed to be 100% the same strength. This is just how card games are really. Some cards are strong in a particular situation or meta and some are fairly weak. You can't value cards entirely on face value (the stats and text) because there is situational value (I think of it as potential versus actual value) that determines how effective a card is each time it is played.

Also interesting to note is that new Unreal Tournament is being marketed as a "free game" that boasts having no microtransactions, however you do have microtransactions in the marketplace for community content if the community chooses to sell content. The line between free and f2p and p2w is pretty blurred, especially if you're new to a game like this one.

 

[scy]

It certainly is. If I'm playing World of Warcraft and you can either raid for months to kill the last boss and hope for an epic sword OR you can just buy the sword for X amount there is no question that is p2w.

There are rarely any games where you can just get something by purchasing it pretty much every f2p game is about "speeding up" how fast you get something by using money. By your definition there are hardly any p2w games.

Fair enough. People use the term "p2w" in Hearthstone as if it's giving them an advantage that you can never have if you didn't pay, however, and that's what gets annoying about it. If people want to use it about shortcutting the way there, fair enough. As long as people still recognize that there's more to the game than just having the cards. Playing properly is still a thing you need to do and paying isn't relevant to that.

 

[Kosma]

If you think rank is pay to win then play arena people. It's very simple.

 

[Nibiru]

The difference is that having every card in Hearthstone doesn't make you better. You give a new player every card for control warrior and they'll still suck.

That is not what I said. Of course you need an understanding of the game to win that goes without saying. That said if you are subject to making a basic deck and do ranked play vs checking out Hearthpwn and making the super deck of the week you will do FAR better if you disagree with this you are being disingenuous.

The more skilled player will always come out on top but a shitty player with the ability to make a great deck that is centered around one relatively simple combo will do leaps and bounds better than a shitty player with a shitty deck.

 

[scy]

If you think rank is pay to win then play arena people. It's very simple.

You can buy arena entries.

pay2win confirmed

 

[Forsaken82]

"P2W", to me, is an advantage that you can only get through paying. Getting there faster isn't necessarily "P2W" in my book.

Also, I hate the DotA example. Getting people into Steam is more valuable than making money out of monetizing getting into DotA. Maybe I'm alone in this train of thought / I play League so my opinion is irrelevant.



Sure but ... if that player had purchased 40 packs with in-game gold, it's the same outcome. Crying "P2W" to every single Epic / Legendary card seems a bit off to me. Not everybody who has a card paid money, yet it seems to be the go to argument for it. "I lost to P2W."

I am not arguing that a guy paying for 40 packs is getting an advantage over a guy who earned 40 packs through free play

It is as simple as we are both new to the game. You spend 50 bucks on the 40 pack or whatever, i don't. We both have been playing like a week or so and guess whos deck is superior. There will always be an advantage. That doesn't mean that the system is broken though, but the only non Pay to Win system is a purely cosmetic system. Something that can't in any way affect the players. In example, buying gold to play in the arena is an advantage. Buying pack bundles to increase the odds of getting that perfect card or just enough cards to craft for those perfect cards is an advantage. If all this game was was buying the designs on the back of decks, you wouldn't have people bitching and moaning. While most of the bitching is exaggerated, there is still a valid argument of pay to win.

That being said, I could care less if someone spends money on cards that give them a miniscule advantage. I rage at this game because certain balancing choices that are being made (like rasing UTH to 3 mana over 2... because thats going to stop the problems) and others being ignore (like just about the entire Priest deck)

 

[shadowstar]

That is not what I said. Of course you need an understanding of the game to win that goes without saying. That said if you are subject to making a basic deck and do ranked play vs checking out Hearthpwn and making the super deck of the week you will do FAR better if you disagree with this you are being disingenuous.

The more skilled player will always come out on top but a shitty player with the ability to make a great deck that is centered around one relatively simple combo will do leaps and bounds better than a shitty player with a shitty deck.

I don't disagree with this, but the top decks right now are usually very cheap to make and they often don't use many epics or legendaries. I recently taught a new player who couldn't get past 19 Kolento's hunter deck. He wasn't able to completely recreate it, but got very close with just the cards and dust he had from just starting out. Played with him a bit to help his decision making and he's done much better since. He didn't have to spend a dime. The game is balanced enough (or imbalanced?) that basic decks can be the "super deck of the week."

 

[Kosma]

People seem to obsess about Ranked when there is also Arena and Play Mode.

You can buy arena entries.

pay2win confirmed

Owned

 

[Special C]

I think legendaries should be restricted to two Total per deck. I understand that throwing a bunch of Legendaries in a deck doesn't make it good, but when A deck has 6 of them in it they tend to lose their uniqueness as being "Legendary"

 

[inky]

Almost there >.<

 

[Nibiru]

Path of Exile is pretty much the only f2p game i know of that is as close to true f2p as possible. The only purchase that might give you an advantage is maybe stash tabs everything else is purely cosmetic. I have heard DOTA is pretty solid also but I don't play that.

 

[Kosma]

For me p2w is a model in which you can;t normally progress without paying. You hit a wall.

In Hearthstone this is never the case because you can always do daily quests in which you are matched to players with similar win counts and you have arena where the playing field is even.

I think legendaries should be restricted to two Total per deck. I understand that throwing a bunch of Legendaries in a deck doesn't make it good, but when A deck has 6 of them in it they tend to lose their uniqueness as being "Legendary"

I agree there should be a mode where there are custom rules to what you can put in your deck. Like something between draft and constructed.

 

[scy]

I am not arguing that a guy paying for 40 packs is getting an advantage over a guy who earned 40 packs through free play

Right but my point is that people are saying "p2w scrub" to every single person who uses rarer cards.

 

[JesseZao]

What's the rush? You don't win more for getting cards sooner. There's no prize for completing your deck within a week. I'm with scy on this one. Experience can't be bought.

 

[Ashodin]

Palygos deck gettin' too real for these hoes, they freak out when he drops and then next turn it's double Holy Wrath for 10+ each to the face

 

[Kosma]

Could Blizzard have made a completely cool card game without the option to buy packs and just buy fluff? Sure.

Would I have rather seen that or a full price release? Sure.

Is this going to stop me from enjoying what we do have? Nope.

Edit: I was pissed too for a while after I stopped playing in Beta and then was 'behind' the curve. Now I just enjoy the game.

 

[Permanently A]

I unpacked malygos and let me tell you, stalling as paladin and then dropping 7 damage consecrates and 13 damaging avenging wraths is hilarious.

 

[Ashodin]

I unpacked malygos and let me tell you, stalling as paladin and then dropping 7 damage consecrates and 13 damaging avenging wraths is hilarious.

It is so gud. SO GUD.

 

[partyphone]

turn 9 malygos/preparation/fan of knives is pretty funny.

 

[inky]

Pfff, 9/6 Damage Swipes or Double Moonfire Ysera turn 9 is where it's at

 

[Ashodin]

Malygos is so dope. I wish I could get him out faster. ALARM O BOT GO

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

It certainly is. If I'm playing World of Warcraft and you can either raid for months to kill the last boss and hope for an epic sword OR you can just buy the sword for X amount there is no question that is p2w.

This is an incorrect comparison imo. Equipment in WoW are often straight upgrades. Just better stats. The cards in this game are not straight upgrades, they are side-grades that allow you to do different things rather than just "stronger" things.

 

[viewtiful_dru]

Ultimately, Hearthstone is Play-2-Win.

The more you play the more you (eventually) win. That's the bottom line. People who've played more will win more.

I'd put my money on someone who's been playing for 3-4 months with no money, over someone who is starting out and spent $2,000 on packs and has full golden decks.

Uh, doesn't that apply to any game, ever?

 

[shadowstar]

Uh, doesn't that apply to any game, ever?

I believe that's his point. It works just like any other game and not a pay2win one.

 

[JesseZao]

Could Blizzard have made a completely cool card game without the option to buy packs and just buy fluff? Sure.

Would I have rather seen that or a full price release? Sure.

Is this going to stop me from enjoying what we do have? Nope.

There's something psychologically enjoyable about unlocking/progression. The game wouldn't be as popular if it was a flat fee or (more unlikely) pay for cosmetics. People would not enjoy rpgs if you started at max level with all tools needed. People like to level up and they like small rushes from opening packs.

 

[Kosma]

That still could have been in the game at full price.

Games used to have stuff to unlock before there was dlc

 

[JesseZao]

That still could have been in the game at full price.

Games used to have stuff to unlock before there was dlc

Then it wouldn't have been free, and thus, would've been much less popular, like I mentioned.

 

[Kosma]

huh?

You can have a free game with only paid cosmetics but you still have to earn gold by winning to unlock packs.

Or a full priced game with the same mechanics.

 

[Minsc]

Uh, doesn't that apply to any game, ever?

If the game were pay2win, you could buy potions and special cards not attainable with in-game gold. Like a potion for $2 that restores 10 life to your hero. Or Blizzard could have a regular release of cards only attainable by paying with money, not craftable.

I've seen real P2W CCGs, where they released limited cards every month you need to be a paying player to get, and they cost around $200 to buy a single copy of, and people will buy them.

 

[inky]

Then it wouldn't have been free, and thus, would've been much less popular, like I mentioned.

Nah. You can say that about many games, but not Blizzard games. Their games just sell too well.

 

[JesseZao]

huh?

You can have a free game with only paid cosmetics but you still have to earn gold by winning to unlock packs.

Or a full priced game with the same mechanics.

A card game doesn't really lend itself to being sustainable on cosmetics. If you couldn't buy packs with cash, the user base would struggle to grow. Eventually you'd have a dedicated fan base, but it'd be intimidating to potential new players that they will start 6mo,1yr, or 2yrs, "behind." Blizzard wants as many people as possible to play their game, so it only makes sense to allow pack purchasing for long term growth.

If it was a full priced game, most people would ignore it.

 

[Grio]

Then it wouldn't have been free, and thus, would've been much less popular, like I mentioned.

Once WoW is completely F2P, you'll find their player numbers going through the roof. Blizzard is one exception to the industry.

 

[JesseZao]

Nah. You can say that about many games, but not Blizzard games. Their games just sell too well.

I think you underestimate the number of people who have never played a blizzard game and/or only tried it because of the positive buzz of this new free game.

 

[Water]

And Trump's taken F2P Mage, Shaman, and Warlock decks to legendary rank on the ladder.

When Trump went to Innkeeper's Invitational, his mage deck cost 4620 dust, and it was the cheapest of the three decks he brought.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16794-trumps-add-fuel-mage
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16797-trumps-whats-yours-is-mine-priest
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16795-trumps-hipster-mage-druid

It's weird he didn't bring any mostly-common decks sprinkled with a couple of rares, even though they must be just as good as the decks with the epics and legendaries, given that there's no P2W whatsoever in Hearthstone.

 

[JesseZao]

Once WoW is completely F2P, you'll find their player numbers going through the roof. Blizzard is one exception to the industry.

That proves my point completely?

 

[Grio]

That proves my point completely?

Sorry didn't see your post from the prior page! Still catching up on the thread.

 

[inky]

I think you underestimate the number of people who have never played a blizzard game and/or only tried it because of the positive buzz of this new free game.

I don't think I am. Free surely brings down the barrier of entry for a lot of people, but Blizzard games sell in the dozens of millions regardless, that's just a fact.

 

[Slashlen]

I've only been playing a couple weeks or so, but I'm fine with the setup. Technically it is a little p2w, but only in the sense that any CCG is going to be because nobody starts with all the cards. If that's a problem for someone, they should probably find a new genre to play.

I did feel a little underpowered in my first few games, but that wasn't due to a lack of legendaries. If anything it was a lack of the more useful commons that hurt, but that's going away quickly. Even then, I still manage to win a lot of my games(outside of Arena, I die there miserably).

The thing that surprised me is that unless you're trying to build a deck quickly, you can earn packs at a very generous rate. Suppose on an average day you do one daily for 40, and get 3 wins, most likely in the process. That's 50 gold, which is enough for a pack of cards every other day for playing very little.

Right now I'm not spending too much time on the game. I do my dailies when my log is full, and on the weekends I go to the arena to die and get packs. I may not be progressing quickly, but it doesn't feel like a grind at all.

 

[Special C]

Early success is all about getting those super useful commons (i.e. Harvest Golem). Once I learned more about value the first thing I did was craft 2 of those.

 

[JesseZao]

Sorry didn't see your post from the prior page! Still catching up on the thread.

I will pay some wow again when it goes free.

Spoiler

For now I can just see new stuff through the ptr if I want hehe.

It will be interesting to see if the titan team was repurposed to make the transition to a new engine/model for wow.

The unknown tipping point is between more millions lost vs. angering the lifers.

 

[FStop7]

Every legendary has a catch. Fave example: Leeroy spawns your opponent two 1/1 minions that can be used to kill him, so you have to plan around that. If you play Leeroy when your opponent has Knife Juggler on the board it can spectacularly backfire - ask me how I know. :X

The other day I posted about how I think Leper Gnome is the best card in the game because it's practically a guaranteed 2 to 4 damage. I'd also add that Azure Drake, Harvest Golem, and Argent Commander are right there with it. These are all easily obtainable cards.

 

[JesseZao]

I don't think I am. Free surely brings down the barrier of entry for a lot of people, but Blizzard games sell in the dozens of millions regardless, that's just a fact.

Certainly Blizzard brings clout, but they also made a very fun game that is more popular than other free card games because of quality of this game alone.

So you saw your friend playing a cool new game. You go download it and start playing for free. Word of mouth wildfire is what the whole f2p model is built around.

It can happen with paid games, too. Minecraft was hugely successful because of word of mouth viral/organic advertising. Mojang also made a card game called Scrolls. "Nobody" cares about that game. If it was free, I'd have given it a shot.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

When Trump went to Innkeeper's Invitational, his mage deck cost 4620 dust, and it was the cheapest of the three decks he brought.

http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16794-trumps-add-fuel-mage
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16797-trumps-whats-yours-is-mine-priest
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/16795-trumps-hipster-mage-druid

It's weird he didn't bring any mostly-common decks sprinkled with a couple of rares, even though they must be just as good as the decks with the epics and legendaries, given that there's no P2W whatsoever in Hearthstone.

Trump also lost. He was also pretty bad at constructed at the time since he only played arena.

 

[Kosh]

Hearthstats April Report is up.

http://beta.hearthstats.net/apr

 

[Glass Shark]

I recognize how good Hearthstone is and how well it is made, but I'm so bad at it that it makes me not want to play.