• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]

Status
Not open for further replies.

Volimar

Member
I just did the dumbest thing ever in Arena.

I mind visioned my mage opponent. Got a faceless manipulator. Used it on his Windfury Harpy. Killed his with my creatures and then doubled my harpy's health. His next turn, faceless manipulator's my double healthed harpy. I had no answer for it. So dumb to give him an uber monster when I knew he had faceless.

Oh Christ, top of the page. FML
 

Tarazet

Member
Weapon warrior is so fun!

Is it a variant on Control? I used to run a kind of weapon aggro deck with Bloodsail Raiders, Spiteful Smiths, Upgrades and a Gorehowl, but I haven't revisited the idea since I started playing the control deck. I have Captain Greenskin now, so it might be time to try to cobble something together.
 
You guys haven't being Pyroblasted over 2 turns in a row.

I played against mage a lot when it was 8 mana and yes I've been pyroblasted twice in a row. How is that any different than being hit for 20+ damage in a single turn from most other classes?

Right now for pyroblast to be effective you have to bring them below 10 due to various healing mechanics making it very easy to jump above 10. 10 mana to deal 10 damage very slow and low compared like every other finisher in the game including other mage finishers. Increasing it by 2 damage wouldn't be a big deal except to make the card actually viable as a finisher.
 

Volimar

Member
I played against mage a lot when it was 8 mana and yes I've been pyroblasted twice in a row. How is that any different than being hit for 20+ damage in a single turn from most other classes?

Right now for pyroblast to be effective you have to bring them below 10 due to various healing mechanics making it very easy to jump above 10. 10 mana to deal 10 damage very slow and low compared like every other finisher in the game including other mage finishers. Increasing it by 2 damage wouldn't be a big deal except to make the card actually viable as a finisher.

20 to the face is so painful. And you're practically powerless to stop it unless you got counterspell. I think pyroblast is fine where it is, as a finisher.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
You guys are talking like the only thing that matters on turn 10 is what cards people play on turn 10.

What about turns 1-9? What were you doing there that the Mage could basically use up two turns without advancing the boardstate to kill you?

You might think Pyroblast to the face is uncounterable and requires zero setup, but that's really just not true. What about all the other turns? Where is your own burst combo? Taking 10-11 turns to deal 30 damage is very slow, and only tends to happen in Control mirrors, where healing is abundant. As the Mage is using 20 mana to play two Pyroblasts, you have 20 mana to heal up against it and play your big threats. considering mana-per-point-healed is something like 1:2.5 for most healing cards, while Pyro's efficiency is 1:1, you should be coming out ahead while the Mage wastes his time.
 

zoukka

Member
You guys are talking like the only thing that matters on turn 10 is what cards people play on turn 10.

What about turns 1-9? What were you doing there that the Mage could basically use up two turns without advancing the boardstate to kill you?

You might think Pyroblast to the face is uncounterable and requires zero setup, but that's really just not true. What about all the other turns? Where is your own burst combo? Taking 10-11 turns to deal 30 damage is very slow, and only tends to happen in Control mirrors, where healing is abundant. As the Mage is using 20 mana to play two Pyroblasts, you have 20 mana to heal up against it and play your big threats. considering mana-per-point-healed is something like 1:2.5 for most healing cards, while Pyro's efficiency is 1:1, you should be coming out ahead while the Mage wastes his time.

The mage probably used 2 fireballs on turn 8 and flamestrike/blizzard on turn 9 :)
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Of course they did.

Indefensible.

Remove this broken anti-fun class from the game Blizzard.
 

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
Ha! I just found out that Spellbinder can actually backfire a bit if a Warlock uses Shadowflame.
 

FStop7

Banned
Started an F2P Paladin on Asia, kind of emulating Hafu. Got Deathwing out of one of my achievement packs. I really hate dusting legendaries unless they're full value but Deathwing is pretty useless.
 
Ever since the start of this season I've been having a really rough time with zoolock. Last season I dealt with them fairly easily with both rogue and druid but now it is like opposite week.

20 to the face is so painful. And you're practically powerless to stop it unless you got counterspell. I think pyroblast is fine where it is, as a finisher.

20 damage using 20 mana over 2 turns is very low and very slow. Even 24 damage, assuming you could even survive 2 rounds in a row, would be very slow.
 

Kosma

Banned
Hahahah those are great

Is there any deck that uses Hogger btw?

Did you read what (I think) haly said? What he said is pretty accurate. You block it by not falling below 10hp and putting pressure on the board and valuing your HP highly. It is hard to set up a pyroblast finisher because of healing, armor, etc..

Yeah I know it's slow, I'm just saying it cannot be blocked so thats why people think its unfair.
 

Haly

One day I realized that sadness is just another word for not enough coffee.
Hearthstone is not just about responding to the cards your opponent plays with your own cards on a turn by turn basis. This is an extremely simplistic strategy and guaranteed to guide you into loss after loss.

A complete strategy analyzes both players' deck capabilities, modifies card value using that analysis, creates plays to maximize tempo and/or card advantage, and generally thinks 3-4 turns ahead at any given time. Even before you click the Find Match button, you're playing a complex numbers game by choosing a deck and fine tuning it for this or that meta.

When you die to something like double Pyroblast, what you need to ask yourself isn't "Why did Blizzard print an 'unblockable' card?", but questions like "How did I let myself get into this situation?", "Do I need more healing in this deck?", "Do I need a faster clock?", "Is this the wrong deck for the meta?", etc.

A player gains absolutely nothing from complaining about how any given card works. It's far more productive to look at the strengths and weaknesses of any strategy that beat you (there usually is at least one weakness) and figure out a new plan to handle it in future encounters.

For Pyroblast, it's healing. Or Mage Secrets. Or just killing them faster, because it's one of the slowest clocks in the game, and comes at a huge opportunity cost for the user of the double Pyroblast. With two copies of Pyroblast, a Mage has 20% of drawing at least one Pyro in their opening hand if they go first, 40% if they mulligan their entire hand. Having an opening hand with Pyroblast in it might as well be a 2 card hand.

For this reason, most Priests only run one Mind Control, because even a class that aims for the long game as much as Priest can't afford a 20-40% chance of getting Mind Control in their opening hand. Mages? Far less, because they don't have any decent healing, and their crowd control options were nerfed to oblivion. These days, Mages don't even try to play the long game anymore, they can't keep up. They're surviving on the back of their 1 drops and 4 drops. When you see Mage decks cutting 1-2 Flamestrikes because it's too slow, despite it being one of the most powerful sweepers in the game, well, what do you think that means for a 10 mana wincon like Pyroblast?
 

Kosma

Banned
Good post and I think we all agree, I was just saying how some people feel (Tiemen probably since he feels that way about everything in game).
 
I think pyroblast is overrated because people don't remember the times when mages don't play anything and die in 8 turns, only the arena matches it wins because you always draft good individual cards and good stat minions but not healing (outside of stuff like farseers). Mages can be effective and have a lot of good tools for efficient board control and stalling, but compared to decks like control warrior and miracle rogue which are basically guaranteed to get all the tools they need, mage is a bit too dependent on having the right cards.

It's sort of funny because all the things that would work for mages to get good card draw all work way better for rogues, like pyromancer + acolyte or Gadgetzan.
 

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
Good post and I think we all agree, I was just saying how some people feel (Tiemen probably since he feels that way about everything in game).
Uhm, thanks for telling me how to feel about stuff, I guess? No need to make stuff up about how I feel on certain stuff, then telling others that that's 'probably how he feels' just to imply that I'm dumb. I'm in this thread too you know. Dick move.

As for Pyroblast; no issues with the card IMO. Yeah, I don't like dying to it when used in certain decks, but I don't think it's OP or needs a nerf. At 10 Mana it requires the user to waste a full turn for just dealing 10 damage, without gaining a body on the field, so outside of being a finisher, it's not really that massive anyway. It can be annoying when playing against a Stall Mage, but outside of that it's something you can plan against in advance.
 

Kosma

Banned
I didn't say you are dumb Tiemen, just try to predict how you might feel about this issue since for the last 20 pages you have been calling for nerfs here and there.
 

CoolOff

Member
That feeling when you think you have a good Shaman-draft with your 4 Fire Eles, then your opponent plays 3 of them, a Stormwind Champ, an Earth Ele, and Faceless in the first 12 turns.

gg.
 

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
I didn't say you are dumb Tiemen, just try to predict how you might feel about this issue since for the last 20 pages you have been calling for nerfs here and there.
No, I really haven't. I suggest you read the last 20 pages again. I know that my venting/'whining' was annoying, and others have already told me that, but there is no need to misinterpret my posts and then use it to basically say 'Yeah, I posted that, but I don't really think that. I posted it because I think this other guy might think that.' after people disagreeing with what you posted. You might not mean to call me dumb, but that is what your post implied, at least to me.

And outside of that, there's just really no need to form opinions for someone else when that same person is active in the thread and could just jump in and give his own opinion.
 

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
Lol, I'm not even angry or anything. I just think that you should be more considerate of your fellow posters. But hey, I'll 'let it slide' for you, so that we don't clutter up this thread with more drama. ;-)
 

sohois

Member
Got some sweet last turn rng (well, card draw, but same thing) in my first match of the day; opponent has 3 health but several big taunt minions up, I have nothing in my hand and one minion. Draw an azure drake and play it.

This draws me a Blessing of Wisdom, which I use on my minion and have it attack. This draws me a Consecrate.

Of course I then got shafted in like 3 of the next 5 games, including one game where the opponent had like 6 2 health minions up. His knife juggler, which I had used blessing of wisdom on, attacks for lethal and the card drawn as I explode is a consecrate.
 

Minsc

Gold Member
Feels so bad contributing to the Ooze/Jones meta, but damn if it isn't efficient playing Shaman vs Paladin, and going first getting your Stormforged Axe out turn 2 to respond to his 1 drop, then keep the board clear of 1/1 tokens, and then on turn 5 playing a second Axe, to cover the next three turns, and then early on turn 7 (the turn the 2nd axe breaks) also play a Doomhammer and get to attack with a Axe + Doomhammer same turn lol (only class that can swing with two different weapons in one turn I think), follow by turn 8 Rockbiter on the the Doomhammer and to the face for 10. I'll venture it's a safe bet that guy added some Oozes to his paladin deck after that matchup lol. It almost felt like I had a gorehowl, the efficiency I saw from those three weapons, kept his board clear the whole game, even got to hex an un-popped Argent Commander and wipe it off the board with a Doomhammer hit.
 
lol a miracle rogue did his math wrong and his combo and left me with 1 HP. "Mistakes were made", ends turn, I faceless his 10/2 Leeroy the next turn and kill him. "Sorry".

The amount of math both players have to do in an X vs Rogue matchup is pretty mindboggling, especially when you usually don't know exactly what variety of miracle deck it is til possibly the turn they play their lethal combo, and you have to count the number of shadowsteps, saps, and cold bloods used to be able to properly assess the situation. Someone being able to possibly do over 24 damage in a turn without warning keeps you on your toes.
 

NBtoaster

Member
The best thing I've done with a secret Paladin deck so far is have a Rogue kill themself with Eye for an Eye when it used Malygos+Sinister Strike. The deck sucks otherwise. Probably can't work without Tirrion and Cairne.
 

Tash

Member
lol a miracle rogue did his math wrong and his combo and left me with 1 HP. "Mistakes were made", ends turn, I faceless his 10/2 Leeroy the next turn and kill him. "Sorry".

The amount of math both players have to do in an X vs Rogue matchup is pretty mindboggling, especially when you usually don't know exactly what variety of miracle deck it is til possibly the turn they play their lethal combo, and you have to count the number of shadowsteps, saps, and cold bloods used to be able to properly assess the situation. Someone being able to possibly do over 24 damage in a turn without warning keeps you on your toes.

That's my current go-to excuse for sucking: I was always bad at math..
 
Brilliant low cost Mage deck. I've got rid of my high cost one and I'm just running this now. Fun to play too. Go for the face most of the time. Combo Knife Juggler/Mana worm/Mirror image etc. Lost maybe 1 game going from 21-14. Not sure how it will hold up in later games, but it's a fast deck so shouldn't be worried about the big hitters.

ibxpi767M8BhOM.jpg
 

Raxus

Member
Malygos is such a pain. Damn creatures with ungodly health grumble grumble....

For the life of me I dunno why they nerfed Tink so hard since he was a great answer for cards like that. Thank goodness more classes are getting hard removal.
 

Llyrwenne

Unconfirmed Member
Tiemen#2770
I'm on Europe. Will be online in about an hour.
And @OP, why not add some Battletags to the OP?
Holy shit @ that last game. Me on Miracle Rogue vs. Kosma on Shaman. Cleared his early Armani + Feral Spirit with Deadly Poison + Blade Flurry, but was then unable to counter his two Knife Jugglers. I played Gadgetzan + Conceal but got no Backstab, then he did Totem + Earth Elemental and all four knives hit my Gadgetzan. ;-( Then I played another Gadgetzan, Sapped his Elemental, Deadly Poison on my weapon to kill one Juggler, Preparation + Sap on his Totem and then finally got a Backstab to use on his second Juggler to clear the board, but it left me at 6 health. He summons a Totem and gets the spellpower totem. Then he Lava Bursts me in the face for the win.

Crazy game.
Crazy fun.
 

Special C

Member
It feels better to manage 3-3 with a crap arena deck than to get to 10+ wins with a good deck. Sure the actual rewards arent nearly as good but the satisfaction is better.
 
In Arena, I was up about 17 life for me and about 8 for the Mage. I had a a couple minions in-hand and an Arcanite Reaper plus a few minions on the board. Mage has no cards in-hand or minions on the board.

He top decks a Deathwing, plays it, wiping my board.
My turn, I play a minion, play the Arcanite Reaper, and hit the Mage with it bringing him to 3.
He top decks a Fireball, and with that plus a swing from Deathwing, I die. We both had about 12 cards left in our decks, so it wasn't like he was down to his last card draw.

Sometimes the top-deck gods giveth, and sometimes they taketh.

Also, as a Shaman, I've never found good use for Hogger. Maybe in a Bloodlust deck or something, but since I don't run Bloodlust anymore, I haven't found a solid fit for Hogger. I tried quite a bit actually since he was my first Legendary pull from a few months ago.
 

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Also, as a Shaman, I've never found good use for Hogger. Maybe in a Bloodlust deck or something, but since I don't run Bloodlust anymore, I haven't found a solid fit for Hogger. I tried quite a bit actually since he was my first Legendary pull from a few months ago.
Yeah you'd only consider Hogger for a shaman bloodlust deck. Such a deck would use hogger, violet teachers, maybe some imp masters, all the totems and probably totemic might. If it's the more typical shaman decks Hogger has no place in them. And I think is even questionable in the bloodlust decks.
 

Kosma

Banned
Holy shit @ that last game. Me on Miracle Rogue vs. Kosma on Shaman. Cleared his early Armani + Feral Spirit with Deadly Poison + Blade Flurry, but was then unable to counter his two Knife Jugglers. I played Gadgetzan + Conceal but got no Backstab, then he did Totem + Earth Elemental and all four knives hit my Gadgetzan. ;-( Then I played another Gadgetzan, Sapped his Elemental, Deadly Poison on my weapon to kill one Juggler, Preparation + Sap on his Totem and then finally got a Backstab to use on his second Juggler to clear the board, but it left me at 6 health. He summons a Totem and gets the spellpower totem. Then he Lava Bursts me in the face for the win.

Crazy game.
Crazy fun.

That was some nice rng on those juggler :p

Good games, we will play again!
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Just fought a hunter in arena with 3 multishots... must have been a sad draft.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom