I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
The issue is more shadowstep in my opinion.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
- Thread starter Minsc
- Start date
- Status
I can see the Leeroy->Shadowstep->Leeroy->Shadowstep->Leeroy (+ cold blood where appropriate) getting nerfed because Blizzard doesn't like that OTK shit.
Pyroblast got nerfed when Mage needed 2 turns, 2 cards and 16 mana to do 20 damage.
Rogue needs 1 turn, 3 cards and 6 mana to do 18 damage.
Pyroblast got nerfed when Mage needed 2 turns, 2 cards and 16 mana to do 20 damage.
Rogue needs 1 turn, 3 cards and 6 mana to do 18 damage.
partyphone
Banned
no please you can't make rogues worse than they already are
the only problematic card in miracle rogue is the auctioneer
Shadowstep is only an issue with leeroy. If rogues had to try the combo with arcane golem or reckless rocketeer it wouldn't be near as strong.
partyphone
Banned
people. please. think.
the only reason miracle rogue works is because you draw your entire deck.
the only reason miracle rogue works is because you draw your entire deck.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Really not an issue. The deck doesn't deal with every threat. I beat miracles all the time. Watched a Leeroy on stream last night get smacked by a variety of decks.
It's a fun deck, but not invincible.
Minsc
Gold Member
It's 8 mana, not 6. Leeroy (4) + Shadow Step (0) + Leeroy (2) + Shadow Step (0) + Leeroy (2).
And that's 3 cards they have to stockpile and not play against you until turn 8, and does nothing if you have taunt up.
Nah. If it was, it would have that crazy synergy with every other class, and even when classes like Druid have 0 mana spells, it's hardly the same thing. Preparation and Shadowstep are terribly powerful cards. Shadowstep imo has no business being 0 mana. It makes no sense with some battlecries, especially when a card like Leeroy dominates the ladder.
That said, I'm not really going to complain about Miracle Rogues. It takes much more skill to play them than Huntard ever did, and their card draw doesn't always equal AoE removal + big minions on board like Hunter did. People are just seeing more of them now after the change.
There are many cards with inconsistent value in the game (like Execute vs Naturalize, and Shield Slam being so cheap) but Auctioneer's stats and abilities are just right imo.
It's still much better value than something like FoN + SR, which is probably the second best combo after that one, and that is divided into several low value minions. Dealing 2/3+ of your health in damage with just 3 cards in 1 turn not even at 10 mana isn't terribly balanced. If you have taunt up (believe me, I'm Druid, king of taunts) their removal excels too: eviscerate, AB + blade Furry, Saps, etc. I have a good winrate against Miracles, but even then I can't bait all of that in turns before every time while still doing consistent damage to set up a kill before they have theirs. But like I said. I feel there's a bunch of cards that need small tweaks (all classes overall), so I'm not terribly bothered by MR.
theMrCravens
Member
No deck is invincible, but these gimmick decks have way too many advantages.
I don't want to change my deck around a single class gimmick.
I'm pro nerf on these things. Everything should be balanced.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
There is zero fun in a game like this being balanced to perfection.
Yes, you have to build your deck to play around certain decks, not just this one.
oh true. Guess it's not as bad as pyro. Though sap solves the taunt problem.
SquiddyCracker
Banned
NavyPharaoh
Member
5 days n, I think I'm getting good and nothing humbled me more than realizing I can craft cards. I thought u had to get the card from a pack then dupe it. Smh. I already feel like I wasted so much... Blue stuff
If Miracle Rogues are even an issue, then it's Auctioneer + Stealth that's the problem. Creative decks that allow you to draw a lot of cards should be allowed, but when you have no chance to stop what's coming if you don't get a good early draw it just makes games boring fast.
There's not really a fix for if without breaking Auctioneer, which is a really fun card.
Unless they can give us a neutral spell/minion that can reveal stealth, then at least we'd have a chance to deal with them, and could run them in heavy MR metas.
Perfect balance is a fallacy. Even if all hero powers were identical and all minions were wisps, one player would be able to go first.
The closer you get to this notion of perfect balanced, the less creative things get too. Decks like Miracle Rogue aren't invincible, and only came rushing out of the shadows because the meta was vulnerable to it. Things will shift and they'll get less frequent, like they always do.
We can switch to complaining about Druids, or Hunters, or whatever creative build is dreamt up next.
There's not really a fix for if without breaking Auctioneer, which is a really fun card.
Unless they can give us a neutral spell/minion that can reveal stealth, then at least we'd have a chance to deal with them, and could run them in heavy MR metas.
Perfect balance is a fallacy. Even if all hero powers were identical and all minions were wisps, one player would be able to go first.
The closer you get to this notion of perfect balanced, the less creative things get too. Decks like Miracle Rogue aren't invincible, and only came rushing out of the shadows because the meta was vulnerable to it. Things will shift and they'll get less frequent, like they always do.
We can switch to complaining about Druids, or Hunters, or whatever creative build is dreamt up next.
Minsc
Gold Member
Now it's 4 cards and 10 mana. We can do better than 18 damage at 4 cards and 10 mana I believe, in many different scenarios.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Miracle would just die right away if there was an anti-stealth. Stealth isn't even that huge. A good rogue will draw what they need when they first drop it. Otherwise, there are some random target/aoe options that do take care of the stealth issue. In my mage deck I started running arcane explosions again for rogue+lock. With a Thalnos or even kobold it's enough to KO them.
Glass Shark
Banned
I am so bad at this game but I can't stop playing.
send help
send help
partyphone
Banned
druid has 2 and it's not a good card. rogue has 6 and they're all pretty good. not to mention conceal which goes a long way to making the deck viable.
leeroy double shadowstep is strong, it's 18 damage all by itself, but it would just be a stupid gimmick(like a 20/20 lightwell) if you couldn't consistently draw most of your deck every game. without the auctioneer you'd need exactly those cards in your hand by turn 8 while not even seeing half your deck.
I could see a nerf to Leeroy just because it's used in so many decks. They nerfed Sylvannas and Nat Pagle because they were used in so many decks.
Miracle Rogue issue is the unstoppable card draw though. Not the Leeroy. Nerfing Leeroy would make it a little weaker but it's not going to kill it. Malygos Miracle works pretty well too.
Miracle Rogue issue is the unstoppable card draw though. Not the Leeroy. Nerfing Leeroy would make it a little weaker but it's not going to kill it. Malygos Miracle works pretty well too.
Wrong. Druid has 4 (Innervate + Moonfire, and 6 if you count Excess Mana, but that only works on turn 10 and costs 2 mana beforehand anyway) but if you are saying Innervate is "not a good card" then we are going to have a problem. Innervate imo is probably the best Druid card, and certainly top tier within the game. It just happens to also not have great synergy with Auctioneer unless you are playing something immediately from hand or hoping for an insane top deck. That's why Auctioneer with Druid and in most other classes is balanced, while low cost Rogue cards that have no business being so low cost are what make it go out of control.
If Auctioneer was the problem, it would work with Warriors too, who have all sorts of cheap spells, but they don't.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Basically. And it looks fun. I'd never play rogue cause fuck rogue but I'm jealous of that deck.
brickwalker0
Member
Auctioneer is absolutely the reason Miracle Rogue is broken.
Kind of stunned at how many people dont see that but it could be people just wanting to keep it in to abuse it.
Balance aside, it is zero fun to play against because there is no counter. All of it happens on one turn and you have no answer to it.
Kind of stunned at how many people dont see that but it could be people just wanting to keep it in to abuse it.
Balance aside, it is zero fun to play against because there is no counter. All of it happens on one turn and you have no answer to it.
Which "the" list of cards?
As a new arena player I have used Trump's guides (Trump mage guide here, links to 4 other class lists at the end of the post), and Antigrav1ty's lists for classes that Trump doesn't have a guide for. I think they have helped me a lot. On my first 10 arenas played I averaged better than 4 wins per run, and my top-3 runs were 7, 8 and 10 wins. Of course you can't strictly stick to a list like this through an entire draft, unless you have godly luck and your mana curve and other deck properties just happen to align correctly. Towards the end of the draft you have to consider if your mana curve is lopsided, if you don't have enough removal spells, if you don't have 2-cost minions, etc. and value some cards higher than usual if they help to fix the problem your deck has.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Auctioneer is a card anyone can use. I see it in other decks.. not just rogue. Nerfing it is unfair to other classes. If anything they should buff it to a legendary so you can only run one.
There are plenty of counters, and the deck loses plenty of times even with auctioneer out, but yes there are times when the stars align and it's a beast. That's true for any deck..
Auctioneer is a problem as much as UTH being 2 mana was a problem. It's not the card by itself that makes it so powerful, and nerfing it to take down 1 class is not really the right solution imo. It's a good neutral card, it works better with Rogue because a lot of their cards are the problem, much like Buzzard/Hunter's Mark/Hyena synergy works with Hunter.
Auctioneer allows Miracles to be drawing machine because preparation, backstab, shiv, FoK, etc. are all so low cost for what they do compared to what other spells do for the price. Rogues are just replacing cards and the purpose isn't even to do great damage or perfectly control the board, just draw the combo and keep an open path. Balance those spell around their relative power in the game and Auctioneer stops being a problem in MR decks, and still works well in other decks.
Auctioneer allows Miracles to be drawing machine because preparation, backstab, shiv, FoK, etc. are all so low cost for what they do compared to what other spells do for the price. Rogues are just replacing cards and the purpose isn't even to do great damage or perfectly control the board, just draw the combo and keep an open path. Balance those spell around their relative power in the game and Auctioneer stops being a problem in MR decks, and still works well in other decks.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Play expert AI till all classes are level 10. Use all your quest gold to buy some packs and pick a few classes you like. Keep playing. Do some research on the side. Keep playing. Keep playing. Give it a month or two.
It's an internet pvp game. It requires a good amount of outside resources to acquire information. This thread for example. Also a good amount of time for card knowledge and basic mechanic tricks.
Can't change Auctioneer without breaking a fun card.
Add neutral minions/cards to deal with stealth and you'd have a chance to stop it.
It would be nice if they could limit the number of draws from Auctioneer per turn. They have similar mechanics in like Pint-Sized Summoner that only affects the first card per turn. Limit it to 2 cards or something.
That would have minimal effect on the card for other classes but slows down a Miracle Rogue.
That would have minimal effect on the card for other classes but slows down a Miracle Rogue.
I had a knife juggler out and the guy played Leeroy. Whelps triggered the juggler special. First knife hit, second hit the hero
Except that's the entire fun with Auctioneer. We shouldn't prevent miracle Rogues from being able to make their play, but we /should/ have a chance to stop it.
There are decks like Violet Paw (Druid token) that make really great use of Auctioneer, I think limiting the draw would be a mistake.
Again: a neutral way to deal with stealth would add a chance to stop the play, and as the deck is only really a consistant problem when the meta allows for it, you wouldn't always have to run the card.
I don't think Miracle Rogue is really that powerful.
But it's not fun to play against because if they get what they need you really can't do anything. And playing Miracle Rogue is a little bit like just playing against yourself/your deck.
Plus Blizzard hates OTK and nerfed less consistent OTK combo decks in the past. The Leeroy/Shadowstep combo isn't exactly OTK but it's close enough. I just can't see them leaving Miracle Rogue alone.
Maybe. I don't really see many situations with other classes that make such heavy use of Auctioneer. I mean, they only draw a card or two because of the mana cost on spells. No one has as many cheap spells as Rogue.
I don't know though. It was just an idea to nerf the card draw without hurting other classes.
But it's debatable whether it needs to be nerfed at all.
I don't want to eliminate miracle rogue. I just think leeroy is too damn powerful for what should be a bit of a joke card. He's in too many decks and the whelps never come into play. I still like my idea that the whelps should randomly attack when they appear, so that every leeroy play has a chance to be completely shut down.
Minsc
Gold Member
It's really not... it's
2 cards, 6 mana, 12 damage
3 cards, 8 mana, 18 damage.
4 cards, 9 mana, 22 damage.
Stopped completely by taunt. Again, a turn 9+ play with 4 cards at 9 or more mana, you expect 20+ damage. It's really nothing special.
That's what i've been saying.
Everyone's looking to nerf the auctioneer but that card is perfectly fine outside of miracle rogue.
meanwhile shadowstep costs 0 mana to return a friendly minion AND make it less to re-summon. Either bump it to 1 or remove the "costs less mana" part.
Okay then. I don't feel strongly enough to argue about it.
Whether anything happens or not to Miracle Rogue doesn't really bother me. I don't play at whatever rank where they are super common. I see one once in a while and it doesn't really bother me anymore than UTH hunters did or the OTK Warriors (with the giants) back in beta did.
But both those got nerfed so I just think this will be too based on that. I don't really care if they don't though.
And Shadowstep is fine outside of the build too.
Why is it a joke card though, just because it was inspired by a WoW joke? Outside of the shadow step play, it's only gonna be played one time in a game and 9/10 times is killed after one attack. Having the welps pre-emotively attack sometimes would make the card useless, better off just taking it out of the game at that point
SquiddyCracker
Banned
If there's anything to change about Leeroy it is that awful card art.
Holy shit, Blizzard, can't you hire a better artist?
That and kill command is atrocious.
Holy shit, Blizzard, can't you hire a better artist?
That and kill command is atrocious.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Maybe put the whelps in hand as 0 mana creatures with rush so they can't be killed same turn. Then I'd play an oracle/mukla/leeroy flood deck!
- Status