RumblingRosco
Member
My favorite Arena trick ever is Mind Controlling a Tirion. It's the best "fuck you" ever.
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Hearthstone |OT| Why tap cards when you can roll need [Naxx final wing out now]
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My favorite Arena trick ever is Mind Controlling a Tirion. It's the best "fuck you" ever.
Well duh. I had one Earth Shock and one Hex in my deck, didn't draw either.
I think Warlock hero power is fine. It's not like Warlock has ever really been at the top of the meta. And Arena stats also show that the hero ability isn't that great in that setting either.
But maybe Reynad is able to see longer term than I am. I am certainly not an expert of card games.
But maybe Reynad is able to see longer term than I am. I am certainly not an expert of card games.
Freakinchair
Member
You generally don't "save" your good cc cards for what might be coming in arena. If there is a large enough threat or you're behind you need to just use your cards as you can't expect a paladin to have tirion or even a legendary.
In ranked MM you'll know what cards the other guy is running after a couple of turns and save your CC accordingly.
So has Druid. In fact Druid consistently ranks above Warlock.
Druid is in top 3 because they have amazing class cards.
Warlock is in top 3 because they have a great hero ability.
So nerf the Warlock hero ability. Now they have the worst class cards and a mediocre hero ability. What kind of balance is that?
Could be 3 mana?
Reynads core argument is that it was just about ok with the current decks but the new cards are better than many of the old ones, ergo the hero power gets stronger. He has a point in that regard, theres no point blizzard putting bad cards in an expansion, but he doesnt take into account possible counter decks.
On top of the Naxx cards, you would probably do a good job of forcing Warlock out of usability.
Minsc
Gold Member
Sooner we'd see it take away 3 life than cost 3 mana I think.
Just to clarify, gold versions of the Naxx cards always required dust. You had to beat the Heroic Naxx counterparts to earn the right to craft them.
Which is a large reason that their core decks are built around their Hero Power and they didn't really get much love out of their Naxx card. I suppose it really depends on how you want to approach things: Balance them with respect to their Hero Power primarily or balance them with respect to their cards?
So far, I'm comfortable with their current approach on it. A good portion of Hearthstone's balance is mana efficiency and not necessarily just card advantage. As long as that pacing keeps up, the Warlock ability is kept from being absurd. It's just merely "really good."
These theoretical Warlock nerfs really don't sit well with me. In the pre-Naxx meta (we can't talk about Naxx yet), Gul'dan was ranked like #3. His hero ability is all he has. Nerf that and both Zoo and Handlock will become unplayable.
Nerfing Warlock when it's not even the top class is so ridiculous to me. Giving him a hero ability that has more negative than the other hero abilities plus his generally weak class cards...
Poor Gul'dan. Getting all that hate. All he ever wanted was your souls.
Nerfing Warlock when it's not even the top class is so ridiculous to me. Giving him a hero ability that has more negative than the other hero abilities plus his generally weak class cards...
Poor Gul'dan. Getting all that hate. All he ever wanted was your souls.
partyphone
Banned
the new rogue card is staggeringly awful. : (
but with all the good neutral minions we will probably see some good rogue decks again.
but with all the good neutral minions we will probably see some good rogue decks again.
Most of the "Health -> Card draw!" comes from prior MtG experience with similar mechanics (e.g., Necropotence) but ... Hearthstone is a fairly different game. The card draw, currently, allows for Warlock to be really strong against the other really strong classes. It's not really what's crowding all the other classes out entirely, though. At least not to the point of "most broken thing" or anything like that.
Future balance, eh ... well, we'll see.
I dunno, it's not Webspinner.
4cc 5/5 is a lot of tempo and the Deathrattle can be used effectively and/or just played around anyway.
The main Mumble seems to be down fairly often :|
RumblingRosco
Member
Damn Druids are everywhere around rank 5-8. Played about 8 matches today and 6 were Druids.
One of them was trying some sort of token and/or aggro deck using the new Druid seeds spell and those little spiders that summon spider tokens. Also the Nerubian Eggs... which I like to steal with Cabal Shadow Priest. Got wrecked by my Priest thanks to Holy Nova and Auchenai Soulpriest/Circle of Healing.
One of them was trying some sort of token and/or aggro deck using the new Druid seeds spell and those little spiders that summon spider tokens. Also the Nerubian Eggs... which I like to steal with Cabal Shadow Priest. Got wrecked by my Priest thanks to Holy Nova and Auchenai Soulpriest/Circle of Healing.
Simple, there are many more neutral cards in the game than there are class cards, thus, there is much more variety to Warlock decks than other classes because the hero power allows for that. Odds are, more powerful neutral cards will be released than hero specific cards. One just has to look at the deck playstyle variety Warlock allows to see their ability is too powerful.
And yes, maybe most of their cards like Pit Lord and Summoning Portal are not great, but they have enough good ones that they can easily fit them in every new incarnation of a deck, while other hero powers don't allow for this flexibility.
partyphone
Banned
I still think I'd rather have a yeti. : (
Yet I look at their deck playstyle variety as a sign of how healthy their design is. I would extend that to pretty much all the other classes with similar range on their decks. "More powerful" cards is a rather generic term that can mean so much. More powerful and efficient draw minions don't necessarily matter much to Warlock where it can be a vital piece to other classes.
Warlock's power allows for the trading of mana efficiency for card advantage. It either makes up for the efficiency hit by playing the low curve (Zoo) or by utilizing cards that can be more efficient than their costs (Giants, Twilight Drake). Minions that don't scale in either direction aren't really great cards for either Warlock deck. Like, many of the Naxx 5cc minions don't really help the core parts of either deck. They're going to end up being tech choice slots and not really pivotal pieces.
If anything, Innervate is a bigger offender of this train of thought than Warlock's card draw.
Alternative doesn't seem to work for me either
Hm. Both Mumbles are actually up and working fine for me (NA).
I mean, this can apply to most every Hero Power given the right design direction. Warlock's Hero Power will almost always be relevant but it doesn't necessarily have to be broken inherently.
Every Warlock deck since the beginning (that I remember anyway) has been built around their hero power. If you nerf that, what kind of deck would they have? Like theoretically say it was nerfed. What is the new Warlock deck with the current set of cards?
I can see talking about it in the future if it actually works out to where it's ridiculous (I don't think it will work out that way). But right now it would essentially kill the class. They have nothing else.
Also, at least in the LiquidHearth power rankings, Warlock has never made it to #1.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/461905-power-rank-pre-naxx-june-2014
It's a powerful hero ability but that's the only reason the class is even playable. And even being as powerful as it is, they're still not top.
I can see talking about it in the future if it actually works out to where it's ridiculous (I don't think it will work out that way). But right now it would essentially kill the class. They have nothing else.
Also, at least in the LiquidHearth power rankings, Warlock has never made it to #1.
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/constructed-strategy/461905-power-rank-pre-naxx-june-2014
It's a powerful hero ability but that's the only reason the class is even playable. And even being as powerful as it is, they're still not top.
Just taunts and bigger cards. It can't deal with them.
I beat him with my joke Legendary deck:
Old pic. I switched out Harrison Jones for Poison Seeds.
partyphone
Banned
innervate spectral knight is going to be so much more annoying than anything a warlock can life tap.
turn 1 coin wild growth. turn 2 innervate spectral knight. turn 3 opponent concedes.
turn 1 coin wild growth. turn 2 innervate spectral knight. turn 3 opponent concedes.
Innervate bothers me a lot more than warlock hero power.
Anyway, I played through Nax last night and enjoyed it. It was really easy though and I hope the next wings are harder. Or I should just ban myself from playing warlock against AI. I destroyed the first two heroic bosses with warlock although Maexnaa was pretty cool and require d a very different kind of deck.
I think those are going to be the most interesting kinds of challenges. Ones where standard really good decks don't work and you have to make a deck specifically for that challenge.
Anyway, I played through Nax last night and enjoyed it. It was really easy though and I hope the next wings are harder. Or I should just ban myself from playing warlock against AI. I destroyed the first two heroic bosses with warlock although Maexnaa was pretty cool and require d a very different kind of deck.
I think those are going to be the most interesting kinds of challenges. Ones where standard really good decks don't work and you have to make a deck specifically for that challenge.
I really hope Naxx gives me a reason to use my Gold Deathwing :|
partyphone
Banned
I had a golden tinkmaster once. the squirrel was glorious. : (
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Did I hear there are no rewards for Heroic?
There's no reward for beating the first wing on Heroic but I think you get a card back if you beat all the wings on heroic or something.
partyphone
Banned
Just taunts and bigger cards. It can't deal with them.
I beat him with my joke Legendary deck:
Old pic. I switched out Harrison Jones for Poison Seeds.
Oh yeah, Poison Seeds might be useful. I'll try again as warrior, with more taunts and 4 atk removals.
But Innervate is much more limited than a hero power in that it is 2 cards, vs a resource dependent ability. I've even had people tell me here that as far as 0 mana cards go it's probably the worst when we were discussing Auctioneer in a Druid deck (I think it's probably the best Druid card atm).
And yes, it's a generic term, but it's hard to go into every specific scenario (more so if we don't know what's coming next) plenty of which Warlock can take advantage of. On top of low curve and efficient cards that rely on draw power like you mentioned, you have low cost charge minions or ones that have value over time (like the ones that leave other minions behind). Just look at Kolento's charge deck that could do like 27 damage with low cost chargers and very small board control. And while I don't disagree that Warlock overall has some of the worst hero specific cards, it also has some very good ones and that shouldn't be ignored.
So while it may be true that Warlock has never hit the top spot as far as power rankings go, it has consistently been top dog because they won't fall from grace due to a change like what Hunters suffered with UTH, or Rogues would should you nerf Auctioneer (which I would be against). Heck, they murdered Blood Imp, and Warlock thrived.
I'm not saying I know what's to be done, or I have all the answers. I've said for quite a long time that Warlock's hero power is unmatched as far as them go and obviously now that it's been brought up by more knowledgeable people than me I have to agree with the notion, but this is not me saying something should be done right now. I'm agreeing with the notion that, while it has been balanced smartly, there's no guarantees it will always be like that. Not with that flexibility.
RumblingRosco
Member
Anyone here play Zoo yet with the new cards? Seems like the Egg and spiders are a nice addition? Just got rolled by a Zoo running said cards.
partyphone
Banned
Innervate the worst 0 mana spell? Buh?
What about totemic might?
or hell, what about preparation in any deck that isn't miracle rogue?
What about totemic might?
or hell, what about preparation in any deck that isn't miracle rogue?
That's what reynard put together last night at least, I reckon they got it from him.
partyphone
Banned
I tried it a bit last night but couldn't tolerate the lag. it went well!
i cut amani berserkers and shield bearer and did things like use abusive sergeant to buff an egg so it could attack and suicide.
EnVy_CaLiBeR
Member
Yeah I think that would be a fair solution. Would make Zoo and Handlock decks watch their health a bit more when tapping. It'd affect Handlock a bit more because they're usually health capped throughout the game from tapping as it is now.
I played a bit of zoo last night with egg/spider but decided not to keep playing since zoo is still missing key cards from later wings like zombie chow. And I know I'll want to try zoo then so I don't want to burn out on it now.
That's kind of the one agonizing thing about the wings being split across weeks is we don't have enough new cards yet to do something truly revolutionary. Just fit the new 2 drops into existing decks.
That's kind of the one agonizing thing about the wings being split across weeks is we don't have enough new cards yet to do something truly revolutionary. Just fit the new 2 drops into existing decks.
RumblingRosco
Member
EU? Might've been me
Nerubian Egg + Power Overwhelming ♥
Nah, US.
But yeah... Some how Zoo just seems stronger now. Which is painful as a Priest.
I guess it largely depends on what people mean, I guess. Is the Warlock ability strong? Like, one of (if not the) strongest Hero Power? Yeah. It definitely is. Is Warlock in a state where you can nerf that without devastating the class? Not really. They have Zoo and Handlock (and then as-the-meta-dictates offshoots) but they're currently a class driven almost entirely off the back of their Hero Power and less their specific cards.
At the same time, yes, their Hero Power will pretty much always give them viability. If there exists a primarily neutral minion deck, they'll be the best class choice for it. Whether or not that's an issue is another matter. Like, removing Warlock just means something else becomes the next best choice (probably Druid, honestly).
And, not to be rude to those people (but probably to be rude to those people), if someone tells you Innervate is bad, you shouldn't really take them seriously :x
Well, it was a comment in the context of using it together with Auctioneer and Malygos in my Spell Druid deck. Something to the tune of Auctioneer not being useful because Druids have the worst 0 mana spells (he wasn't referring to moon-fire). I take it he probably meant in the context for using them to draw, but even then I still would disagree obviously.
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