toddhunter
Member
very true.
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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal
- Thread starter ZealousD
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very true.
Imo
Ultra / turn 3 Gallywix / fuck arena tier:
Mage
High tier:
Paladin
Warlock
Druid
Mid tier:
Priest
Hunter
Shaman
Low tier:
Rogue
Please take my gold Blizz tier:
Warrior
That said you can draft something broken with any class, but in arena it's all about consistency. I'm also interested in what Massan does differently with Rogue to rate it even on par with Mage.
Ultra / turn 3 Gallywix / fuck arena tier:
Mage
High tier:
Paladin
Warlock
Druid
Mid tier:
Priest
Hunter
Shaman
Low tier:
Rogue
Please take my gold Blizz tier:
Warrior
That said you can draft something broken with any class, but in arena it's all about consistency. I'm also interested in what Massan does differently with Rogue to rate it even on par with Mage.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm confused as to why anyone would rate rogue low in arena. I'd listen to maasan. 
Super Nothing
Member
This shit is as fair and balanced as Fox News. Where's the fucking nerf, Blizzard?
toddhunter
Member
This shit is as fair and balanced as Fox News. Where's the fucking nerf, Blizzard?
You can deal with it next turn and still play Dark Cultist. Then follow it off with soulpriest into Dr Boom and meanwhile the hunter has no cards left.
If a hunter couldn't do well against a Priest in the early game we'd have a bit of a problem.
Super Nothing
Member
I killed it the next turn with a Shadow Word: Death, but he still hit me for 8 damage on the turn shown in that screenshot. I was down to 16 health, and he still had board presence. He wound up hitting me with double Kill Command shortly after for the finish. That Undertaker put me in such a ridiculous hole that there was no recovering.
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
I'd rate Druid as about on par with Shaman for arena. Both are heavily dependent on picks offered. And I feel like it's more likely to get a blowout Shaman deck than it is to get an amazing Druid one.
Paladin is easily my second pick after Mage though.
Paladin is easily my second pick after Mage though.
toddhunter
Member
Didn't you board clear?
16 health with two minions and a stacked hand vs a secret seems like a reasonable position as a priest.
If anything it shows kill command is the problem.
I had 3 of them in my last mage run.
Naturally in one game my opening hand was snowchugger, snowchugger, snowchugger.
Except when I use it it's always 3 damage. #fuckthatcard
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're suggesting throwing a blademaster and NSC AND holy smite into a 1 mana card is somehow dealing with it?
Follow up with dr. boom? You realize its turn 3 and the hunter has a freaking 1 mana boulderfist ogre right?
toddhunter
Member
Funny, all the 1 mana Undertakers I play are 1/2. If you are going to count cards, do it both ways.
Board clear on turn 4, powerword shield still available for turn 5 and you have the option of soulpriest or whatever after that. If it wasn't for kill command, what exactly is the hunter going to do beyond Highmane on turn 6?
I lost the most pathetic match in the arena. My opponent bested me with a bunch of low cost weak minions. All 1/1, 1/2, 2/1, and 3/2. I had a mind control in my hand and was just waiting for him (or her) to drop something good. But both of us had nothing else in our hands, so it was just this slow, sad loss, 1-5 damage per turn. I was a Priest so I was just mitigating the loss, hoping for one damn decent minion for either of us. Eventually I was put out of my misery with a fireball. I've lost to plenty of Mages, but never in a situation that was so winnable.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Buffing undertaker by playing deathrattles doesn't count as cards... don't know what game you are playing but when you "deal" with an undertaker, all the deathrattle minions don't suddenly die for no reason.
toddhunter
Member
To get that Undertaker, the Hunter needs to play 6 cards and probably 8 mana. They then get a spare part and a 2 mana secret.
The priest can clear all that for 2 cards and 8 mana. They also get a 2 mana heal.
The reason that favors the Hunter is the 10 damage on top of it that can't be blocked or played around in any meaningful way. Take the undertaker out of that equation and it starts to get crazy one sided.
That is the game we play. Looking at it isolation as a 6/7 OP card is a really simplistic view. You might as well ask why every deck doesn't just run undertakers and death rattles, because every deck can. The reason is it only really works in specific cases (where you can blow 6 cards and still do damage) and in other cases (like Priest vs Hunter) you should be fine given a reasonable draw.
It basically turns every single deathrattle card in your deck into a shatted sun cleric for undertaker. Which is insane. It means undertaker + leper gnome is 3 mana worth of value for 2 mana. It means undertaker + leper gnome + haunted creeper is 6 mana worth of value for 4 mana, etc. It's a ridiculous tempo play, and even then it doesn't tell the whole story because you get that value IMMEDIATELY. With that 6/7 undertaker, the hunter got 5 mana of value for FREE.
There is absolutely no way to trade favorably with a Turn 1 undertaker in this game, except for arguably fiery war axe. Whenever a Turn 1 undertaker is played, the opposing player generally has to spend 2 mana for immediate removal (frostbolt, darkbomb, wrath, sw
, fiery war axe, etc) because if the undertaker grows into a 3/4, the person who played undertaker is almost certainly going to win because it's even HARDER to kill it then. Even if it's played as a 1/2 that premium 2 mana removal still has to be used, so even as a 1/2 the undertaker player gets the tempo advantage.Undertaker is stupid and toxic because it means any matchup where there's an undertaker involved can be decided within the first three turns of the game. The card is dumb. Dumb dumb dumb dumb dumb. And it's made even worse by the fact that another STUPID card, Mad Scientist, buffs it.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
You're really getting off track here. Back to the original scenario. You're suggesting he just throw an injured blade master, a 3 mana card, NSC, a 1 mana card, and a holy smite, a 1 mana card into a 6/7 undertaker. That is in fact exchanging 3 cards for 1. There is no escaping that fact. The deathrattle minions he played to buff them are not weak cards.
The deathrattles weren't part of some sacrifice to make another card stronger. They aren't below budget minions only played because UT makes them worth playing. When UT dies, as a 6/7 or a 12/13, its still a 1 mana card and it is still 1 card. That is just simple and straightforward.
As a priest, or heck any class, against a turn 3 undertaker on steroids, you can't just play to remove the UT and hope to stabilize because the hunter isn't gonna run out of steam just because he is down to 2 cards. That is wishful thinking. Without that top deck shadow word death, he had absolutely no hope. And even if he did kill the UT, he is still facing at least 7 damage next turn from 16 hp. There is really no hope to win in his hand if he has to sacrifice his entire board and then some just to remove only half of the pressure the hunter is putting out.
And to be clear, the real thing I am reacting to was how nonchalant your suggestion was; basically like... just do x, y, play dr. boom and you win. Its turn 3! How on earth is he gonna survive from turn 4 til turn 8 for when dr. boom actually can do anything. He can't. The boulderfist taker sealed that game away.
Hell, even with the SW
, he didn't have any hope. The moment that Turn 1 undertaker became a 3/4, he lost.toddhunter
Member
In terms of dealing with undertaker, the priest has smite right there. Sucks to not mulligan for it, but the hunter needs to get the right opening cards too.
The rest of the arguments seem to ignore that a hunter should play lots of cards early and overwhelm the priest. You both seem to be suggesting there is something wrong with that which I disagree with.
The priest is supposed to trade in those minions to stabilise. You can't break it down into straight mana costs because that isn't what the priest is trying to do. Look at the hand again, Dr Boom? That is not a turn 3 aggro card.
You trade, you stabilize, the hunter runs out of steam and you win. Sometimes you don't quite get there and kill command finishes you off.
The priest had a clean board, 16 health and an opponent with two cards. You would expect to win from there unless you get unlucky.
He did, that is the game.
The rest of the arguments seem to ignore that a hunter should play lots of cards early and overwhelm the priest. You both seem to be suggesting there is something wrong with that which I disagree with.
The priest is supposed to trade in those minions to stabilise. You can't break it down into straight mana costs because that isn't what the priest is trying to do. Look at the hand again, Dr Boom? That is not a turn 3 aggro card.
You trade, you stabilize, the hunter runs out of steam and you win. Sometimes you don't quite get there and kill command finishes you off.
The priest had a clean board, 16 health and an opponent with two cards. You would expect to win from there unless you get unlucky.
He did, that is the game.
call_kotaku
Member
You're treating it as the same thing as priest/paladin buff cards, which it isn't, because hunter would've played all of those cards regardless of whether or not he had undertaker, since all his deathrattle minions are very good on their own. Undertaker is a card that will always require resources to remove, whether it be sw
ain/wrath/frostbolt/darkbomb at 2, or even more expensive options down the line, and spending turn 2 or 3 doing nothing but removing an undertaker will certainly put you behind on board control unless the hunter has a monumentally bad draw. In practice, undertaker isn't "1/2 for 1 mana, gain +1/+1 whenever you play a minion with deathrattle", but "remove a card and 2 mana from your opponent, or he loses 8 health". You can theoretically remove it efficiently, and it's rarely the card that kills you, but it's still a 1-mana card that guarantees you'll be ahead for 4 turns if you play it, which is super dumb. That's like saying gadgetzan isn't broken for miracle rogues because a 4-mana yeti can kill it.
toddhunter
Member
Why? With Death he had a hand to clear the board.
What exactly did the hunter play on turn 5? What card do hunters even have to play on turn 5 to an empty board?
How exactly do you stablize from that position? He can't clear the board. All he can do is kill the undertaker. What is that Turn 4 board clear you're talking about? He doesn't have it. He can't kill the mad scientist, the clockwork gnome, and the webspinner.
toddhunter
Member
See above. He drew death.
Death undertaker, trade and smite. 4 mana and he still has a presence on the board including a draw engine. His minions also threaten anything the hunter can possible play.
My original argument from there is that the Priest is in a great position. The problem was then double kill command, which has lead me to repeat that this is the problem with hunters, not the undertaker.
Okay, even with that clear, there's a trap in play, the hunter has 4 cards in hand (Not 2) plus a spare part on his next turn. The priest lost half of his health. Even without Kill Command, the Hunter can still make the difference with hero power, animal companion, charge minions, eaglehorn bow, etc. The hunter can still put forth a lot of pressure, and there are no more board clears or strong catchup plays from the priest until Turn 7.
toddhunter
Member
True, but isn't that kind of the point of the deck?
There is RNG from the spider, trap and spare part and draws like getting a Huffer, but that is all fair enough. The priest could draw circle of healing too or holy nova, sludge etc or more importantly the Hunter could not have drawn Undertaker at all.
It seems like a fairly balanced game to me.
call_kotaku
Member
It's true that the problem is with hunters and not undertaker, since undertaker isn't completely outstanding for any other class, but the same was true of gadgetzan. The problem is the large number of useful deathrattle minions he can play for 2 mana or less, specifically webspinner, creeper, and mad scientist, which other classes either can't play or don't get the benefit of synergy from. Unless Undertaker or Mad Scientist ever is nerfed, every hunter deck will always include those 4 key cards and probably aim to end the game before turn 8, because it's too good not to run. The only other thing that could possibly change the meta is if extremely efficient low-cost removals or similarly powerful 1 drop minions are introduced, but that sort of power creep will not be good for the game.
It doesn't even need to be a huge nerf, I think changing him to a 1/1 would probably hurt him enough (you'd still need to fix mad scientist, though), because the hunter will be forced to spend resources to defend him from zombie chow or a 2-attack 2-drop and fight for board control.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
The problem is in fact undertaker. Lets just imagine UT is slightly nerfed so it isn't as sticky in the early game. As a 1/1, it is still very good for a 1 drop in the midgame (when buffed of course) and sometimes even the late game it is still the best 1 drop if you just buff it twice. Even a2/2 for 1 is arguably the best 1 drop in the mid/late game because zombie chow has the healing your opponent baggage.
Not sure if this is a troll or not.
Circle of Healing plus Priest does not clear all of that (not the UT that's for sure). Holy Nova doesn't clear that either and Sludge doesn't protect you against that. Even if that guy had Shadow Word, the other minions would've cleaned.
And for the record Hunters do have Belchers in their deck to buff UT so even at turn 5 they had a potential play. Or they could've buffed up the Spider with Houndmaster for even more damage.
toddhunter
Member
Read again, he had death so I was talking about draws after that. The board should have been clear and there are multiple ways the priest can out draw the hunter from there.
In this case it seemed it didn't happen but you can't win them all.
The worst case is bow, flame trap and then double kill command. To have all that and the deathrattles is pretty much the hunter dream.
toddhunter
Member
The scientist could go either way, but I'd always remove the beast.
Meanwhile the dream:
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Ever notice that
Is zapping
And now we know why magma rager is not played. Magma rager doesn't like moons.
Is zapping
And now we know why magma rager is not played. Magma rager doesn't like moons.
Mind blown
call_kotaku
Member
That's an awful comparison. If you bother to buff up the lightwell you can concievably lose 3 cards to an owl, and getting lightwell/divine spirit/northshire without inner fire is awful. Meanwhile undertaker combos with atleast a dozen different cards, guaranteeing "the dream" pretty much 80+% of the time if you manage to draw it, and removing undertaker doesn't leave you with zero board presence.
There's a reason why buff priest hasn't been good for the entire history of the meta, even though it has a large number of priest cards built around it, because it's way too inconsistent and loses to both aggro and control.
toddhunter
Member
I wasn't talking about the lightwell, simply dealing with the god like menace of an undertaker with two options.
call_kotaku
Member
holy smite is a fair trade but only because he played a naked undertaker (which he should never do, especially vs priest), and shadow word pain means that you have no turn 2 (or turn 3 if you played it on that turn) play.
Every class staple 2-mana removal spell can trade 1-to-1 with undertaker, but the problem is that playing a removal spell on turn 2 will put you behind on board control, and hunter will most likely be able to keep board control until he kills you.
You're also rocking the Wild Pyro + Mass Dispel combo?
CarbonatedFalcon
Member
3-0 Mage run turns into 3-3. Wha whom.
I had Deathwing too, but never got a chance to play him. Woulda saved me in a couple of those games at least. 2 of the 3 I lost I also didn't draw my only flamestrike.
Problem was lack of spells. I had to pick the flamestrike over the fireball and never got another fireball or second flamestrike. No frostbolts either. 3 water elementals, but mostly I got overrun without having removal in time.
Last game loss was to a hunter that top decked his way to victory. Last card he played on me was an Arcane Golem :/
I had Deathwing too, but never got a chance to play him. Woulda saved me in a couple of those games at least. 2 of the 3 I lost I also didn't draw my only flamestrike.
Problem was lack of spells. I had to pick the flamestrike over the fireball and never got another fireball or second flamestrike. No frostbolts either. 3 water elementals, but mostly I got overrun without having removal in time.
Last game loss was to a hunter that top decked his way to victory. Last card he played on me was an Arcane Golem :/
Professor Lich
Member
They just need to make Undertaker a 0/0 before it gets buffed. Only way it'll ever be balanced.
partyphone
Banned
I think undertaker is a necessary evil. was anyone around during the beta before zoo was figured out? nothing but control decks with the greediest lists.
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