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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Yeah, I really don't see the problem with it, tbh. Since GvG launched, it is no longer dominating the meta. The only decks that run it are hunter and sometimes zoo. But no one is running deathrattle shaman or priest or druid any more, since there are now better deck archetypes for those classes. And this is despite everyone worrying that the new deathrattle cards introduced in GvG would make Undertaker even more meta-defining. But it's not. Yes, it is a strong card in the aforementioned decks, but every ladder viable deck has to have at least one "OP" card (ie Goblin Blastmage).
And speaking as someone who mains hunter, I very rarely win games with snowballed Undertaker. If I'm lucky enough to even have it in my opening hand, it generally dies immediately and my subsequent 1- and 2-drops are then really weak without a UT on the board (creeper, mad scientist, clockwork gnome, etc.). It's just everyone suffers from selective memory and only remembers the games where UT snowballed out of control and they lose by turn 6 and forgets the games where they easily dispatch the hunter in the late game since they just can't keep up.
This is sort of what I'm worried about too. Undertaker is an OP card, but I'm not sure aggro would have much presence right now without him. Even the aggro decks that may not run him(such as mech) have some comparably overpowered way to snowball out of control(Mechwarper). Those decks can run both by trading some consistency, which may or may not be worth it depending on card pool and the meta.
It's also really weird to think about the game before Shattered Sun Cleric and Dark Iron Dwarf were discovered(it took a shockingly long time). The most aggressive strategies were weird midrange token lists that didn't really work.
Also, I don't think Blizzard has decided how they want to handle nerfing cards that were directly purchased, rather than randomly pulled from a pack.
Super Nothing
Member
How is the 10 damage from double Kill Command worse than the 10 damage that the Undertaker did? Undertaker costs 1 mana, and he hit me with it twice, once at 4 damage and once at 6 damage. Double Kill Command costs 6 mana and requires a beast to be on board to hit for 10 and leaves no board presence. Undertaker sounds like the better deal to me.
partyphone
Banned
it's the one card making them a serious threat to slower decks.
and it has to be that way at the moment. there's just way too much synergy with early aggro and deathrattles because of the resilience it gives you.
and don't forget, naxx and gvg gave other classes more things to do early game. so nerfing undertaker guts aggressive strategies that aren't much mage.
edit: lol kill command is like the least objectionable hunter card. do you folks also hate fireball? complain about animal companion if you need to vent more rage.
Zoo, no. But Hunter would be dead. The classic mid-range Hunter was effectively killed with the Buzzard and Leeroy nerfs. A beast-focused mid-range hunter is still a few cards away from working and control hunter will probably never work. A super-aggro build with Arcane Golems and Wolfriders would be the only other option and, like face warrior, that deck is fairly easily countered with Sludge Belchers and the like.
I kind of agree with you, but I still think the Undertaker has base stats that are just too high. If they just changed his stats to worse than a 0 mana minion, he would be a balance card. Undertaker at 0/1 can still grow out of control, but it can't easily trade and survive any longer.
The larger problem is Mad Scientist. Secrets have 2 huge advantages, they force the opponent to misplay and they can easily eat more mana than they cost; but they have 1 disadvantage, if they are successfully played around they aren't worth their cost or card value. Mad Scientist removes all disadvantages and greatly increases the ability to eat opponent mana. His cost is cheaper or equal to secrets, but comes with a body and card draw. He could be 4 mana and still be a decent card. He has to come up to 3 mana at least.
partyphone
Banned
undertaker was very specifically designed so people would play him. there's a reason you don't seen any decks running mana addict, secret keeper or lightwarden. even shamans stopped running unbound.
although to be fair overload is a bad mechanic.
although to be fair overload is a bad mechanic.
Games were much more interesting back the IMO.
If a blatantly OP card that can determine the outcome of a match 3 turns in is the only thing holding aggro decks together right now, we're gonna have a bad time. Goblin Blastmage may be really strong but it's still recoverable. Dying because of a bad mulligan is the WORST.
Also Dr. Boom could also stand to be nerfed. It really is crazy how much value that card has right now. The body could stand to be a 7/5 and the boom bots should do 2 damage, not 1-4.
Also Dr. Boom could also stand to be nerfed. It really is crazy how much value that card has right now. The body could stand to be a 7/5 and the boom bots should do 2 damage, not 1-4.
partyphone
Banned
control matches now are way more interesting. they're huge mid-game slugfests. before it was just going you got the right dream card.
I would be all for nerfing Dr. Boom, so I can dust my golden one.
And I myself don't have much problem with hunters and their kill commands and undertakers, I usually can deal with them, but then I play priest. Though, furthest I've climbed on the ladder is 10 currently, kinda hoping to climb up to the legend this season.
I dislike undertaker just because I don't think a 1 drop should be able to win games under any circumstance. I feel it just makes getting lucky on the mulligan too big of a deal.
An aggro deck should need an overall strong starting hand. Not just undertaker + whatever. The power difference in a hunter opening with and without undertaker is insane. In this sense, zoo is much more 'fair' in that it builds its deck to have a lot of strong openings and not be reliant on mulliganing into a single card. I never really feel cheated when I lose to zoo. I do sometimes feel cheated against hunter.
But I don't think undertaker is so overpowered that it needs a massive nerf. The really big deal is when it flips from 3->4 health. Were it up to me, I might even experiment with starting it as a 1/3 and only gaining attack. So it starts even stronger, is even on 1 buff, but is only 3/3 instead of 3/4 after a double buff.
And how many times now have we had people say if you nerf ___ card then hunter is dead. And then it keeps not being true.
Dr Boom still doesn't bother me. I still think he is just a symptom of not enough good 7 drops in the game yet.
An aggro deck should need an overall strong starting hand. Not just undertaker + whatever. The power difference in a hunter opening with and without undertaker is insane. In this sense, zoo is much more 'fair' in that it builds its deck to have a lot of strong openings and not be reliant on mulliganing into a single card. I never really feel cheated when I lose to zoo. I do sometimes feel cheated against hunter.
But I don't think undertaker is so overpowered that it needs a massive nerf. The really big deal is when it flips from 3->4 health. Were it up to me, I might even experiment with starting it as a 1/3 and only gaining attack. So it starts even stronger, is even on 1 buff, but is only 3/3 instead of 3/4 after a double buff.
And how many times now have we had people say if you nerf ___ card then hunter is dead. And then it keeps not being true.
Dr Boom still doesn't bother me. I still think he is just a symptom of not enough good 7 drops in the game yet.
There's plenty of ways to balance Undertaker. I kind of like the idea of making him more like Cogmaster myself.
Even with other solid 7 drops he's still the nuts. À 7 mana creature should be like à vanilla 7/8. For 1 less HP he's got the 2 boots bots which are worth like 1 mana each. Hes got like 3 extra stat points that he shouldn't have.
The 'vanilla stats' test doesn't work when you get beyond around 5 mana. 6+ mana creatures need to be quite a bit better than 'vanilla stats' to be playable.
Think of it this way. If Dr. Boom changes from a 7/7 to a 7/6, do you think that hurts the card, like, at all?
Has anyone tried to make Mana Addict work with spare parts? Just wondering because it ended up deciding the game for me after having gotten it from an unstable portal.
Polymorph+3 spare parts got it to 10+ attack. Guess it takes too much effort and cards to make it work effectively tho.
Polymorph+3 spare parts got it to 10+ attack. Guess it takes too much effort and cards to make it work effectively tho.
Then compare Dr Boom to Cenarius. 7 mana 18 stats + bomb damage vs 9 mana 21 stats (Ignoring the rare cases of buffing more minions, because if you somehow manage to have 3+ creatures on board as druid you've probably already won). Dr Boom also comes two turns earlier, is neutral, and isn't even a good BGH target; he almost always gets value because the minions on board at turn 7 will usually take fatal or close to fatal damage.
To my knowledge, the general wisdom on 6+ mana cards is:
1.) They need to do something notably useful the turn they come out. (Ragnaros, Grom, Alexstrazsa, Jarraxas, Al'Akir)
and/or
2.) They need to be so incredibly amazing that it makes sense to play them anyway, even if they're slow. This is often due to a deathrattle. (Tirion Fordring, Sylvanas)
Dr. Boom half-fits both depending on if you view "Summon 2 Boom Bots" as doing something notably useful the turn they come out, or that just being part of being incredibly good.
1.) They need to do something notably useful the turn they come out. (Ragnaros, Grom, Alexstrazsa, Jarraxas, Al'Akir)
and/or
2.) They need to be so incredibly amazing that it makes sense to play them anyway, even if they're slow. This is often due to a deathrattle. (Tirion Fordring, Sylvanas)
Dr. Boom half-fits both depending on if you view "Summon 2 Boom Bots" as doing something notably useful the turn they come out, or that just being part of being incredibly good.
Taunt is a stat, so Cenarius is more like 23 stats but without bomb damage. And the stat distribution on Cenarius is a lot more powerful. But Cenarius is not a super powered 9. It was once an 8 mana card that got nerfed to 9. So as far as 9s go, it is a little on the weak side (but still playable) because its cost is borderline 8/9 and got rounded to 9. Whereas Dr Boom is a little on the strong side (borderline 7/8 mana rounded to 7) but not broken.
your deck so far looks a little on the control side which makes me lean sylvanas. You need board control for Trogg to win. As a shaman, you care deeply about board control and sylvanas can win it for you since you don't yet have a lightning storm.
Honestly speaking Doom being changed to a 7/6 with Bots hitting for 2 damage won't change much. 7/5 puts it at the range where he can die to Frostbolt double ping and I would be fine with that. He would still be absurd though.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
So by that line of thinking, Boulderfist Ogre is a bad 6 mana card? Because I think most of my constructed decks have two Boulderfists in them...
But then I really don't have many 6+ epics or legendaries to choose from. I also put one or two Stormwind Champions into some of my decks too.
Ended up taking Sylvanas for fear of getting zerged/outcurved. But man I really wanted that Troggzor too... hardest legendary pick ever
It's okay if you don't have anything else, but it is for that reason that nobody plays boulderfist ogre once they do have the more impactful epics/rares/legendaries.
If you make Dr Boom a 7/5 then I would consider Baron Geddon to be just better than Boom. I think that the predictable, and immediate, sweeping damage is worth more than the 2 boom bots. As a 7/6 they are probably equals. At 7/7 I consider Boom to be just slightly better.
Yeah, the principle only applies in the long run.
If you don't have that many cards, then the sheer stats value of the card becomes a lot more important, and if match making is successful, you will be put against other people who don't have seas of legendaries.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
troggzor is a win more card, sylvanas can be used to swing... I think swing cards are more important than win more cards in arena.
Something I hadn't mentioned yet about Dr Boom as well: right now the boom bots are complete chaos because no one really has the time or ability to figure out the probabilities mid match. Boom bot math is complicated.
But as time goes on, the community will get better at evaluating boom bot math and because its generally the opponent who gets to trigger the boom bots, Dr Boom's value will decrease (slightly) over time.
But as time goes on, the community will get better at evaluating boom bot math and because its generally the opponent who gets to trigger the boom bots, Dr Boom's value will decrease (slightly) over time.
Mengy
wishes it were bannable to say mean things about Marvel
Yeah, looking at my Hearthstone spreadsheet I have in Google Drive, I only own 8 legendaries. And 6 of those are Naxx cards, LOL.
Ysera and The Beast are the other two.
One is in every deck, other sees very rarely play. The two cards aren't comparable at all.
There are some non-legendary 6+ drops people run once their collection fills out, but unfortunately most are legendary. I would say that Boulderfist Ogre is about the best you could hope for out of the free neutrals though, so it's a good card to run.
Beyond that, for free class cards, Fire Elemental is amazing even if you have Legendaries, and Ironbark Protector is generally solid before you have better cards as well.
For uncommons, Savannah Highmane is fantastic, and Ancient of Lore (especially) and Ancient of War are strong for Druid. Cabal Shadow Priest is used frequently as well.
For neutrals, Piloted Sky Golem is a solid choice, and for select types of decks, mountain/molten/sea giants are useful as well.
I haven't seen Argent Commander used in a while. He's not as good in a world with Sludge Belchers.
But yeah, Epics are pretty rare too, so it's kind of rough for 6+ drops. It's why you see most people with less cards play decks like Zoo or Aggro/Mid-Range type decks in general.
That's because Geddon is a highly undervalued card. Every control paladin should have been using it for example. Other control decks probably should have been using it. The only card stats we've ever actually gotten out of blizzard that I've seen pointed to Geddon when used in control warrior (at the time) was the most powerful* card in the game.
*where powerful is measured by how much your win% increases when you draw a given card.
Geddon is probably still better than Boom in Warrior. But for whatever reason, the community is really bad at evaluating Geddon.
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No, boom is just an overpowered card that offers too much value, tempo and board presence for its cost, which is why it's in every deck like it should be. Geddon is a highly situational card.
No, boom is just an overpowered card that offers too much value, tempo and board presence for its cost, which is why it's in every deck like it should be. Geddon is a highly situational card.
A 'highly situational card' would not have the single greatest win% increase every time you draw it in all of hearthstone.
That doesn't change anything I said.
I still find it too variable to even possibly figure out the possibilities. When Boom is played, even on an empty enemy side, he immediately has a board that needs a response...but dealing with both the bots and the main body is tough. I've had games in arena where my board was a mech yeti and a normal yeti vs. boom, I polymorphed boom and pinged the sheep. Ignored the bots and hit for 8. He then hit the mech yeti with a bot which flung over to my normal yeti for 4. He killed that yeti with the attack of the second bot and hit my mech yeti for 4. Though, if I attacked and didn't give him control over that the same thing could have happened. Or they both could have hit my face for 1.
I just rarely know the proper response to it. In the above scenario he got three of my cards just from boom, and still had his turn after my board was wiped by the bots.
Dr. Boom would still be better than Geddon if you have your own board presence or if your opponent didn't have board presence. Gotta remember that Geddon damages your own board so he's more of a catchup card. Dr. Boom is more all-around. You can just drop him at any time. So that would make Geddon better in heavy control decks but not the higher end midrange decks that often run him now, like Handlock or Midrange Paladin. Or hell, even the dumb aggro decks that run him now, like hunter.
Nerf boom to a 6/7
Best Nerf. Do it Blizzard.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Why are people saying make Dr. Boom 6/7, that would put him out of BGH range is it some kind of joke now?
Yes. They're joking.
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