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Hearthstone |OT2| Created by Unstable Portal

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M

Majine

Banned
call_kotaku said:
Wow, a zoolock managed to pull off the soulfire - soulfire - doomguard dream "combo" on me for lethal with 5 cards in his hand.

I ain't even mad, that dude is obviously RNGesus.
Click to expand...
Nothing makes me more moist than seeing a lock soulfiring a doomguard away.
 
Z

Zemm

Member
That's the main thing i don't like about the game I think. Stuff like webspinner where you can either get a chicken or a highmane, rng bomber, ragnaros rng and other such cards. Watching Amaz rng his way to a tournament win because of a lucky Rag is incredibly funny but I'd be so pissed if I was on the receiving end.
 
I

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Which is why people who don't play games for a living should just play the game for fun..
 
Minsc

Minsc

Gold Member
Zemm said:
That's the main thing i don't like about the game I think. Stuff like webspinner where you can either get a chicken or a highmane, rng bomber, ragnaros rng and other such cards. Watching Amaz rng his way to a tournament win because of a lucky Rag is incredibly funny but I'd be so pissed if I was on the receiving end.
Click to expand...

So Rag hits for 30 now? And BGH has been banned from the game? I know there's RNG, but even a lucky Rag will only hit for 8 if you play BGH on your turn. I guess what I'm saying is, it's easy to look at the thing that killed you as the reason why you lost, but more accurate to look at the things that lead to you being unable to get out of that position.
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
Zemm said:
That's the main thing i don't like about the game I think. Stuff like webspinner where you can either get a chicken or a highmane, rng bomber, ragnaros rng and other such cards. Watching Amaz fluke his way to a tournament win because of a rng Rag is incredibly funny but I'd be so pissed if I was on the receiving end.
Click to expand...

I don't really have a problem with most of the current RNG elements outside of tournament settings, where a few low percentage clutch rolls can make a series' outcome really underwhelming (Pagle/Tink meta desensitized me to this to an extent). Bomber killing a 3/2 on turn 2 in arena is just on a whole 'nother level of BS as it's an utterly disgusting swing that early into the game, is impossible to play around (you can't mulligan a 3/2 in hopes for a 2/3 just because of the possibility of bomber) and has virtually no downside for the Bomber player. For two mana you remove 5 stats from the enemy board and get 5 stats on yours, which trade with almost any of your opponent's follow-up drops.
 
Z

Zemm

Member
Minsc said:
So Rag hits for 30 now? And BGH has been banned from the game? I know there's RNG, but even a lucky Rag will only hit for 8 if you play BGH on your turn. I guess what I'm saying is, it's easy to look at the thing that killed you as the reason why you lost, but more accurate to look at the things that lead to you being unable to get out of that position.
Click to expand...

I can't link it right now but i believe it was in a tournament semi final a couple months ago where you just go "wow". I don't really care about it in normal play but those rng mechanics deciding tournaments is pretty funny/bad.

Actually watching it again and it's more topdick luck than rag, but it's still such a funny passage of play. Search amaz v rdu on youtube and it starts around 35 mins in.
 
Minsc

Minsc

Gold Member
ViviOggi said:
I don't really have a problem with most of the current RNG elements outside of tournament settings, where a few low percentage clutch rolls can make a series' outcome really underwhelming (Pagle/Tink meta desensitized me to this to an extent). Bomber killing a 3/2 on turn 2 in arena is just on a whole 'nother level of BS as it's an utterly disgusting swing that early into the game, is impossible to play around (you can't mulligan a 3/2 in hopes for a 2/3 just because of the possibility of bomber) and has virtually no downside for the Bomber player. For two mana you remove 5 stats from the enemy board and get 5 stats on yours, which trade with almost any of your opponent's follow-up drops.
Click to expand...

Unstable Ghoul has been particularly great for stuff like that, trades well with so many things, especially stuff like scarlet crusader, I see them a lot as well, usually 1-2 a draft. At least you're making it a 3/1 in that case and can Elven archer/hero power it away.
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
call_kotaku said:
Wow, a zoolock managed to pull off the soulfire - soulfire - doomguard dream "combo" on me for lethal with 5 cards in his hand.

I ain't even mad, that dude is obviously RNGesus.
Click to expand...

So the odds of that happening are... 1 in 4? Not actually as bad of odds as I expected.
50% chance to discard a Soulfire or Doomguard when you cast the first Soulfire, then another 50% chance to discard the Doomguard when you cast the second Soulfire.
 
S

slayn

needs to show more effort.
RNG cards can be both well designed and poorly designed.

I think webspinner is an example of a well designed RNG card. The reason is because both players have time to react and prepare for the RNG. Both players see the webspinner get played. When it dies, the owner finds out what beast they got and has to adapt their strategy appropriately. On the other side, the opponent doesn't know what card was drawn but they know it is a beast, and they know what card position that card is in their hand.

The opponent can track that card in the hunter's hand and based on other plays/mana use can make reasonable estimates on what the card is. Thus the RNG event is good because the actual result of the RNG roll doesn't immediately swing the game and both players can adapt their strategies to deal with it.

Ragnaros is an example of a shitty RNG card. One where one player just puts it on the table and then both players pray to RNGesus that they don't get fucked.
 
Minsc

Minsc

Gold Member
slayn said:
RNG cards can be both well designed and poorly designed.

I think webspinner is an example of a well designed RNG card. The reason is because both players have time to react and prepare for the RNG. Both players see the webspinner get played. When it dies, the owner finds out what beast they got and has to adapt their strategy appropriately. On the other side, the opponent doesn't know what card was drawn but they know it is a beast, and they know what card position that card is in their hand.

The opponent can track that card in the hunter's hand and based on other plays/mana use can make reasonable estimates on what the card is. Thus the RNG event is good because the actual result of the RNG roll doesn't immediately swing the game and both players can adapt their strategies to deal with it.

Ragnaros is an example of a shitty RNG card. One where one player just puts it on the table and then both players pray to RNGesus that they don't get fucked.
Click to expand...

That's not exactly true. Just drop Rag after you clear their board. No more RNG. Or clear off the minions except for a 6/6 or whatever. Now it's either Rag hits for 8 to the face or clears the minion. And if you're the other guy who had an abusive sergeant in hand, and was holding your fingers crossed Rag would hit to the face, maybe try some other cards in your deck instead. The RNG from Rag is fine, and there's plenty of answers in the card pool for one if it is played against you.

In the case you describe the game is probably very one-sided, you play Rag against a board with 5 creatures, you still lose next turn to a Savage Roar combo, Leeroy + UTH, etc. You accept what Rag is when you play it. If you need to swing for the best case scenario when you play it, you've probably already lost, and if you play it when you have board control, you might actually regret it (in the case of Faceless + BGH, etc). It's not a badly designed card, it's useless as often as it is useful, a late-game card that needs some care to perform optimally.
 
Z

Zemm

Member
There are a ton of situations were the game has gone to the wire and rag comes out for a coin flip to decide the game. How often does rag come out vs an empty board? It's definitely a very small amount. I don't even use (have him) but I've seen some well funky rng from him. I don't even think he's overpowered or anything but it's just the worst kind of rng.
 
S

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Minsc said:
That's not exactly true. Just drop Rag after you clear their board. No more RNG. Or clear off the minions except for a 6/6 or whatever. Now it's either Rag hits for 8 to the face or clears the minion. And if you're the other guy who had an abusive sergeant in hand, and was holding your fingers crossed Rag would hit to the face, maybe try some other cards in your deck instead. The RNG from Rag is fine, and there's plenty of answers in the card pool for one if it is played against you.

In the case you describe the game is probably very one-sided, you play Rag against a board with 5 creatures, you still lose next turn to a Savage Roar combo, Leeroy + UTH, etc. You accept what Rag is when you play it. If you need to swing for the best case scenario when you play it, you've probably already lost, and if you play it when you have board control, you might actually regret it (in the case of Faceless + BGH, etc). It's not a badly designed card, it's useless as often as it is useful, a late-game card that needs some care to perform optimally.
Click to expand...
I do not agree. In the situation where the opponent has a single large creature in play, rag hitting the minion or not is a massive swing in the game. That situation is the very reason I hate the card because if rag hits the minion, the person that played rag generates a massive lead. While if it hits face, the opponent often generates a massive lead. Who wins is decided by a coin flip.

Rag is of course not always dumb, because of the situation of playing it on an empty board. My opinion isn't that rag plays are *always* game determining rng rolls. But it is often enough that I consider the card poorly designed.

And my opinion on it has nothing to do with it being over/under powered. I don't think rag is an overpowered card. I think it's fine on the power level meter and way too high on the bullshit meter.

edit: and my entire point is that there really isn't 'answers if one is played against you.' Because by the time you actually get to play cards it's too late, the damage has been done. If rag kills a powerful minion and then gets BGH'd, rag has already done his job.

It's very similar to how an old pagle that drew on the first chance was also bullshit because the other player is screwed before they get to respond.
 
Minsc

Minsc

Gold Member
slayn said:
I do not agree. In the situation where the opponent has a single large creature in play, rag hitting the minion or not is a massive swing in the game. That situation is the very reason I hate the card because if rag hits the minion, the person that played rag generates a massive lead. While if it hits face, the opponent often generates a massive lead. Who wins is decided by a coin flip.

Rag is of course not always dumb, because of the situation of playing it on an empty board. My opinion isn't that rag plays are *always* game determining rng rolls. But it is often enough that I consider the card poorly designed.

And my opinion on it has nothing to do with it being over/under powered. I don't think rag is an overpowered card. I think it's fine on the power level meter and way too high on the bullshit meter.
Click to expand...

Rag is just so easy to counter. BGH and goodbye to any real value from Rag. Faceless + BGH and you've probably just turned their own Rag in to a loss for them, unless they also have an answer.

When I first got my Rag at the time of the Pagle nerf, Rag was running rampant. I crafted one in exchange for Pagle, and was horribly underwhelmed. Half the games I played it in had just that happen (faceless + BGH). It ended up being I couldn't even risk playing Rag unless I had a Rag removal in hand myself. And a lot of the time it didn't do what I needed (keep me alive from a threatening board). Now I guess Faceless is much less common thanks to stronger 5-drops, same with BGH, but at least there's an answer if Rag needs one.

Focusing in on a few lucky rolls of Rag is easy to do, but it's not reliable. Sure, if you're losing and your opponent has lethal on board, and less than 8 health, you can play Rag and hope for that 1:7 chance or whatever you win when you'd have lost anyway. But I don't see it as a coin flip winning you the game any more than anything else (drawing leeroy or a fireball).

You still did the other 22+ damage in the game to get them to under 8. That's what cost them the game, not the Rag hitting to the face against overwhelming odds.
 
S

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Minsc said:
Rag is just so easy to counter. BGH and goodbye to any real value from Rag. Faceless + BGH and you've probably just turned their own Rag in to a loss for them, unless they also have an answer.

When I first got my Rag at the time of the Pagle nerf, Rag was running rampant. And I crafted in exchange one for Pagle, and was horribly underwhelmed. Half the games I played it in had just that happen (faceless + BGH). It ended up being I couldn't even risk playing Rag unless I had a Rag removal in hand myself. And a lot of the time it didn't do what I wanted. Now I guess Faceless is much less common thanks to stronger 5-drops, same with BGH, but at least there's an answer if Rag needs one.

Focusing in on a few lucky rolls of Rag is easy to do, but it's not reliable. Sure, if you're losing and your opponent has lethal on board, and less than 8 health, you can play Rag and hope for that 1:7 chance or whatever you win when you'd have lost anyway. But I don't see it as a coin flip winning you the game any more than anything else (drawing leeroy or a fireball).

You still did the other 22+ damage in the game to get them to under 8. That's what cost them the game, not the Rag hitting to the face against overwhelming odds.
Click to expand...
Again, you seem to be arguing from a power level stance. Rag is good when ___ or bad when ___. That really isn't relevant to what I'm saying.

My argument is more: if the RNG results of a single card massively swing the game in greater than 20% of the times the card gets played, and the opponent has no ability to respond the RNG event before the swing, it is a poorly designed card. And rag is such a card.
 
Minsc

Minsc

Gold Member
slayn said:
Again, you seem to be arguing from a power level stance. Rag is good when ___ or bad when ___. That really isn't relevant to what I'm saying.

My argument is more: if the RNG results of a single card massively swing the game in greater than 20% of the times the card gets played, and the opponent has no ability to respond the RNG event before the swing, it is a poorly designed card. And rag is such a card.
Click to expand...

My argument has been / is Rag didn't swing the game, everything before Rag did. I explained why (Rag only trades 1:1 at best with a BGH in hand). If Rag was delayed a turn to say, the start of your next turn, it'd be a useless card as it would trade 0:1 as often as not. If your deck goes to late game, and has no answer for Rag, then your deck probably needs to be tuned a bit if you encounter trouble with Rag.
 
S

slayn

needs to show more effort.
Minsc said:
My argument has been / is Rag didn't swing the game, everything before Rag did. I explained why (Rag only trades 1:1 at best with a BGH in hand). If Rag was delayed a turn to say, the start of your next turn, it'd be a useless card as it would trade 0:1 as often as not.
Click to expand...
Calling Rag kills a minion and then gets BGH'd a 1 for 1 is disingenuous. Rag killed a minion, and your opponent had to spend 3 mana on BGH stalling their tempo and the 4/2 body is not going to go 1 for 1 with anything.

If I play rag, it kills a druid if the claw, and then gets BGH'd I am happy because that was still a large swing in my favor. The person who played rag gained a massive swing in this situation because rag hit the claw.

Whereas if the opposite happens, if rag hits face and then gets BGH'd while their opponent has a druid of the claw out, the game is probably over.

Neither player gets to do anything in the period of time inbetween rag gets played -> rag hits something. And which target rag hits massively swings the game in either player's favor.

edit: I'm not saying rag should shoot at the start of the turn. That would of course make it a useless card. But I'd rather see either:
rag is removed from the game
rag always hits face
rag does reduced targeted damage
 
Z

Zemm

Member
A majordomo card that summons rag when he dies (who maybe summons a son of flame each turn instead of the big boom) is what they should have done. So much lore.
 
M

Mr Cola

Brothas With Attitude / The Wrong Brotha to Fuck Wit / Die Brotha Die / Brothas in Paris
Zoo
Zoo
Hunter
Zoo
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Hunter
Zoo
Zoo

Have some self respect, please hearthstoners
 
Haunted

Haunted

Member
KingKiller said:
Okay, I'm sorry. What does RNG stand for?
Click to expand...
It's short for RNGesus

nUQACjz.jpg
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
Dunno why I even bother with arena anymore. Used to average seven wins but nowadays it's closer to five, if at all. Me watching fewer streams and not being as invested might be a factor but it does feel like everybody and their mother has learned how to draft.
 
Z

Zemm

Member
Is there a list or website that like talks about what the cards really say when they get placed on the board?

Undertaker - "Bring out your dad"

That kind of thing?
 
L

lawlohwhat

Banned
ViviOggi said:
Dunno why I even bother with arena anymore. Used to average seven wins but nowadays it's closer to five, if at all. Me watching fewer streams and not being as invested might be a factor but it does feel like everybody and their mother has learned how to draft.
Click to expand...

websites like arenavalue make drafting incredibly easy. it really comes down to your card pool and getting a little lucky constructing a good curve. there's still lots of skill in arena games themselves, but constructed and tournament play are where it's at.

last night i drafted an absolute monster paladin deck (3 truesilver champions and a shitload of solid creatures) but only got to 7 wins because two of my games ended with ultra unlucky swings in the very late game. the deck was good enough to 12-0 or 12-1 imo and i didn't really do anything special in drafting it.

arena would be a little more consistent if you could decline 1 or 2 picks every draft. sometimes you get 2 murlocs and a pirate as your choices or a really fucked up curve and your games are just boring and sad.
 
A

Acinixys

Member
Someone in this thread was talking about the wording on cards and how it totally fucks up your game because cards interact in ways they shouldnt (According to their card text)

For example, Frothing Berserker says "When ever a MINION takes damage gain +1 attack"

But then when he kills my Shaman TOTEM he gets +1

How does that even make sense?

A totem is not a minion

They need a new word for a card in play/ on the board because minion is WAY to broad
 
Z

Zafir

Member
Acinixys said:
Someone in this thread was talking about the wording on cards and how it totally fucks up your game because cards interact in ways they shouldnt (According to their card text)

For example, Frothing Berserker says "When ever a MINION takes damage gain +1 attack"

But then when he kills my Shaman TOTEM he gets +1

How does that even make sense?

A totem is not a minion

They need a new word for a card in play/ on the board because minion is WAY to broad
Click to expand...
That's consistent across all cards though? A totem is still a minion because it gets played onto the board. Anything that is played onto/is on the board is considered a minion.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Anyone know how this happened?

aT0qZls.png
 
L

Leezard

Member
Yoshichan said:
Anyone know how this happened?

http://i.imgur.com/aT0qZls.png[IMG][/QUOTE]

You attacked and killed the creeper, then you put the argent squire between them, as seen in the left bar. That or you just had some weird timing and placed it when only one had spawned. There is also the bug where minions change places though.
Click to expand...
 
A

Acinixys

Member
Yoshichan said:
Anyone know how this happened?

aT0qZls.png
Click to expand...

Yes

If you play a card VERY fast it will appear in the middle because the game doesnt spawn both spiders at the same time

It spawns 1 and then the other so if you are fast your 3rd minion you play from your hand will appear in the middle of them

At least thats what I think

Its happened to me about 20 times
 
M

Mobius and pet octopus

Member
Holy crap, playing control paladin is such a new thing for me it feels like I am playing a whole new game. Matches where I would have been screwed before are actually winnable making each match feel extra epic, especially when they go to 4-5 turns into fatigue with me "losing" the entire time. And I am not doing it by dropping a bunch of legendary cards like control warrior does.

Yoshichan said:
Anyone know how this happened?

aT0qZls.png
Click to expand...

I've had that placement bug happen to me a lot lately. It is definitely the timing when you play the card. It most certainly seems like a bug and one time a hunter was actually using explosive trap and screwed me with it. And I always play around that stupid card and the one time my opponent is actually using it that happened.
 
P

partyphone

Banned
yeah a minion is anything on the board. a totem can be returned to your as a card.

we only call them tokens because hearthstone terminology has been infected by dirty, filthy magic players.
 
C

call_kotaku

Member
Soka said:
So the odds of that happening are... 1 in 4? Not actually as bad of odds as I expected.
50% chance to discard a Soulfire or Doomguard when you cast the first Soulfire, then another 50% chance to discard the Doomguard when you cast the second Soulfire.
Click to expand...

Yeah I suppose not, now that I do the math it's about as likely as clearing both spirit wolves with a lightning storm?

The dude could've used a soulfire to clear my board (I had lethal next turn if he didn't) and instead he just went for it like a true gamer.
 
R

RumblingRosco

Member
call_kotaku said:
Yeah I suppose not, now that I do the math it's about as likely as clearing both spirit wolves with a lightning storm?

The dude could've used a soulfire to clear my board (I had lethal next turn if he didn't) and instead he just went for it like a true gamer.
Click to expand...

When you put it in the context of a Lightning Storm killing two Spirit Wolves... yeah, it's surprisingly common. I never realized how relatively good the odds were for Soulfire/Soulfire/Doomguard to not discard each other from their hand with only 5 cards.
 
S

Super Nothing

Member
Fuck your Deathlord, Power Word: Shield, Divine Spirit, Inner Fire combo, Priest.

87fSVDEl.png


I copied his original with Faceless Manipulator, then ran Sylvanas into it and stole it. Yeah, he hit the damaged one with a stolen Execute, but he couldn't do shit about the other one. I even pulled a dick move and healed him back up to 15 health with Alexstrasza before hitting him with his own roided out Deathlord again.
 
ShinNL

ShinNL

Member
Today I got killed turn 4 by a Zoo bot. I kid you not.

Knife Juggler action, Egg with Poweroverwhelming, Dire Wolf Buff, Soul Fire, Then another Poweroverwhelming.

I was already pissed that I never drew any Pyro's or Consecration 15 cards in the previous Zoo bot game, but this totally topped it. I could laugh about it if it was a real player, but it wasn't.

Does Blizzard expect me to enjoy that kind of nonsense? Do something about the bots.
 
L

Letterbomb

Banned
Deathlord has to be the most exciting thing to Hunter's Mark / Stampeding Kodo.

Soneet said:
Does Blizzard expect me to enjoy that kind of nonsense? Do something about the bots.
Click to expand...

Bots are definitely an issue, but I think Zoolock is the bigger fish at the moment. They seriously need to implement some sort of nerf. I wouldn't mind running into bots day in and day out for all I care, as long as they weren't Zoolock. Braindead strategy with hardly any counters to it. Fucking make the hero power draw a card after the turn has ended.
 
C

Cipherr

Member
Super Nothing said:
Fuck your Deathlord, Power Word: Shield, Divine Spirit, Inner Fire combo, Priest.

87fSVDEl.png


I copied his original with Faceless Manipulator, then ran Sylvanas into it and stole it. Yeah, he hit the damaged one with a stolen Execute, but he couldn't do shit about the other one. I even pulled a dick move and healed him back up to 15 health with Alexstrasza before hitting him with his own roided out Deathlord again.
Click to expand...

Vyg72nL.gif



Noooooooooo! Its so soul crushing to get that set up and have it turned on you. Deserved though, rest assured when we play those cards we are TRYING to get a cheesy win; having it turned on us is such justice, but the salt be real as fuck.

So many priest decks force games to go 14+ turns. Sometimes we bust out the cheese to try and end a game before dying of old age. :lol
 
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