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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Minsc
Gold Member
Pyro Priest (with Velen, Chow and Death Knights) is already strong in this Muster/Aggro/Implosion meta (really it is, I won 5 straight the other day), that will just make it stronger.
I also think Void Caller in to the 9/7 or doom guard is way worse than a 3 mana 3/2 that sometimes gives you a good smaller minion (3/4 pales next to 9/7 immune or 5/7 doom guard) and often gives you a 0/X non-attacking minion that does nothing for board control. I don't think Tuskarr will be good at all on a losing board, anything trades against the 3/2, and most of the times you'll get a minion that just soaks a single attack and nothing more. Sometimes when the board is more even and you have a FTT it will put up a fight though, but I don't expect that situation too often.
I think you're being unfair here: you're describing the best case scenario for Void Caller (turn 4/5 and specifically getting Malganis or Doomcaller) and the worst case scenario for Shaman. Some advantages of Tuskar Totemic over void caller:
1) Cannot be silenced
2) Effect is immediate
3) Costs 3 mana instead of 4
4) Cannot draw a blank; Void Caller absolutely can produce nothing. That cannot happen with Tuskgarr.
5) Tuskgarr Totemic does not need to be played in a "totem deck," while Void Caller makes no sense in a deck that doesn't also play many other demons
It doesn't mean that Voidcaller is a bad card; it's a very good one. I just want to point out all the advantages Tuskgarr has, to show that it, too, is a great card.
If tuskar totemic pulls a searing totem, he is a razorfen hunter 3/2 instead of 2/3.
The card is pretty meh if you get anything other than manatide, totem golem, or flametounge. And even if you get flametounge, you have to be winning on board already for it to be good. Imo card is not that good, I don't think it will see much play unless they do other balance changes (ie nerf patron nerf other cards).
You think way too small.
If I run Darnassass Aspirant not only do I run control but I also have a presence on the board that control has to use valuable removal to get rid of. On top of that I have cards in my deck to combo with DA like Youthful Brewmaster which, in turn, gets me even more mana crystals if not dealt with that turn.
Rozorfen is pretty good, so I don't see the issue. Another way to put this is you get a 3/2 (usually costed at 2 mana) + your hero power at worst, which is 2 mana.
So, I think you'll see it played in virtually every Shaman deck. It's incredibly strong. The reason why there is near-unanimous positive consensus (both professional players and popular consensus on sites like Reddit) for the Shaman cards this expansion are this and totem golem. They're both considered extremely strong, and I agree. Shaman got the best cards in the expansion along with Druid.
I think tuskarr totemic is one of the strongest cards in the set. Maybe top 10 for how big of an impact it will have on the game.
a 3 mana 3/2 is not the worst. You aren't really looking for 3 drops to trade with anything than other 2 or 3 drops. A tuskarr that pulls even just a taunt totem is better than most other 3 drops because it virtually guarantees it get gets to put its 3 damage where it matters.
Even a searing totem is still 4 power spread across 2 attacks on your 3 drop which is acceptable. And against aggro decks a 3/2 and a 1/1 is better than a 4/3. Against control decks the difference between a 3/2 and a 3/3 is negligible. The only bad outcomes are healing and spellpower.
So in the worse case (25%) you have a slightly sub par 3 drop. In the best case (25% for mana tide/golem) you can just win the game from your 3 drop. The amount of games you are going to win from the good 25% is vastly higher than the games you are going to lose from the 25% where you played a not awesome 3 drop.
a 3 mana 3/2 is not the worst. You aren't really looking for 3 drops to trade with anything than other 2 or 3 drops. A tuskarr that pulls even just a taunt totem is better than most other 3 drops because it virtually guarantees it get gets to put its 3 damage where it matters.
Even a searing totem is still 4 power spread across 2 attacks on your 3 drop which is acceptable. And against aggro decks a 3/2 and a 1/1 is better than a 4/3. Against control decks the difference between a 3/2 and a 3/3 is negligible. The only bad outcomes are healing and spellpower.
So in the worse case (25%) you have a slightly sub par 3 drop. In the best case (25% for mana tide/golem) you can just win the game from your 3 drop. The amount of games you are going to win from the good 25% is vastly higher than the games you are going to lose from the 25% where you played a not awesome 3 drop.
I was super excited about it too when it first came out. I think it will be played in a lot of shaman decks.
I think shaman is still going to be the worst class and basically won't see any play rank 5 and up just like it does now.
Razorfen hunter is good enough for arena, not constructed.
What shaman really needed was more than 1 card that buffs totems, the 2 cards that do are totemic might and that new card with inspire which is too slow. The totem tribe is worthless.
Edit: if you could play this as s warlock, it would probably be one of the best cards in the game.
Shaman is not the worst class now, so I don't think they will get worse in the expansion, but it's certainly possible. Weirder things have happened, and I don't claim to be a perfect analyzer of cards (who is?) It's certainly true that the joust mechanic is anti-synergistic with overload.
Shaman is my most played and favorite class, I hope I am a bad card analyzer and you are right!
BananasWithGuns
Member
Tuskarr Totemic is certainly better than what Shaman had for the 3 slot previously. I won't be upset if I never have to run Feral Spirit ever again.
I think everyone has a tendency (including myself) to hope for the moon for their favorite classes and are disappointed when they only get "very good" instead of "crazy."
My favorite class is Warrior, and I feel disappointed with what I got because Varian Wrynn is anti-synergistic with a huge portion of the decks I play, from cards like Alexstrasza to Shieldmaiden. I reluctantly concede that Wrynn is a good card, but it's not what I wanted, exactly. I think you may be doing the same thing here -- again, while entirely conceding that I could potentially be wrong.
My second favorite class is priest, and I think the two archetypes which got a notable boost are combo priest (flash heal is excellent for Prophet Velen decks) and inner fire priest (tournament medic and bolf are excellent inner fire targets), which aren't what I want, exactly. I like to play a traditional, deliberate control priest, so these options are disappointing to me because I want a very specific thing that I didn't get.
quackamole
Member
Brawl is not good enough for pay per play like arena unfortunately. Too much RNG.
I thought people already brought that up when talking about Ancestral Knowledge and Healing Wave? Even that new Elemental Destruction card fits into that archetype.
Yup it has been brought up here. I think there is just too much information at the moment and we just have to wait and see how things are played out on the ladder.
Though this card set has me more excited than GvG so far.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9ahL9bFOU4
ADWCTAs take on Paladin, Mage, Rogue in TGT-arena.
I had Paladin pegged as getting worse just because of the cards given to it, but his point about the difficulty the class has with a slower meta was something I hadn't considered. Good if it happens because it's such an easy class to play for people that would fail hard with most other classes.
15% less Flamestrikes apparently!
ADWCTAs take on Paladin, Mage, Rogue in TGT-arena.
I had Paladin pegged as getting worse just because of the cards given to it, but his point about the difficulty the class has with a slower meta was something I hadn't considered. Good if it happens because it's such an easy class to play for people that would fail hard with most other classes.
15% less Flamestrikes apparently!
It's been brought up but only in passing, there's no indepth discussion about what cards go in that deck and instead people are talking about the Totem minions which are anti-synergy with that deck. I've been thinking that Charged Hammer actually fits quite well in the deck as another removal option because you don't really have anything else to play at that mana slot and you don't care if it's broken because you still have 2 damage removal.
How would you build it at the moment?
BananasWithGuns
Member
I think I'd rather run a dragon control deck over a stall and burst deck with Shaman. Even without a dragon class card Shaman has the tools to play that type of game. Especially now with Totem Golem to contest the board early and Twilight Guardian to drop on turn 4. Then you can burst down with Malygos similar to how Malylock does it.
It's definitely something I'm going to try at least.
It's definitely something I'm going to try at least.
First pass would be something like this:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/deckbuilde...40:2;14454:1;22319:2;22331:2;22340:2;22345:2;
I think only 1x Ancestral Call might be better and to replace it with something else like Al'akir as an alternate win condition.
There are many decks that are going to be pushed in TGT to possibly the next level. These are just some of the Priest decks that are getting new tools to play with.
*Heal based Priest (Circle of Healing/Pyromancer combos with the new 4 drop minion for massive burst)
*Velen Priest (new Flash Heal card with Auchenai)
*Divine Spirit/Inner Fire deck (yeah yeah I know this card is a noob trap but this deck is definitely getting new tools to play with)
*Shadowform Aggro Priest (again, noob trap but it's also getting new tools to play with)
*Dragon Priest (3 new dragons to play around with, all of which are good in Priest)
So it's hard to get discussion going on just one particular deck that may rise in use.
As far as Malygos Shaman goes, yes I definitely think it's getting buffed and the buff might be enough to push it to the next level. I always said that Shaman lacked 3 things: Reliable card draw, massive AOE clear and a massive heal. Well Shaman ACTUALLY got all 3 of those tools! It really opens up the type of decks they can play. All 3 of those cards actually fit well into the Malygos deck because:
1) Card draw is the most essential component of that deck. People are using the crappiest of draws in that deck just to get their win conditions in. Ancestral Knowledge would be a perfect fit for the deck... you generally don't do that much after each turn anyway kinda like Freeze Mage.
2) The deck needs AOE clears and Elemental Destruction is a great tool for it. You don't actually care for your own minions in that deck because it's very minion light and that deck already plays with a ton of overload as it is. The deck even runs Lava Shock sometimes which will get pretty high value from Elemental Destruction (if you even need it).
3) The deck's main weakness is survivability and getting into the late game. It just gets rushed down so easily before the board clears come in or the combos come in. A huge heal like Healing Wave can allow you to get into that late game. It being a cheap spell relative to its potential heal means you can do heal + an AOE or removal to keep surviving.
I also agree that charged hammer fits well into that deck. You don't really care for Totems past a certain point anyway (though having that spell totem is nice) and the +2 damage is more useful for Malygos Shaman as they don't actually run cards that get benefit from having more minions on board. You can sort of use Charge Hammer to clear out some shitty minions, transition into the new hero power and use Healing Wave to heal up all the damage you took from all the aggro and face tanking with the weapon.
The current Malygos deck uses damn near every draw that the Shaman can potentially use. Like you would need Far Sight and Thalnos maybe even Azure Drakes in that list (both of which do get used currently). Some lists even use Coldlight Oracle although now there's no need for that.
http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/legendary-shaman-malygos-combo-brm-deck
Like here's an example of the deck that gets used.
Obviously you would probably cut Healbots and Vitality Totems for double Healing Wave.
You would cut Stormforged Axe for Charged Hammer.
Mana Tide and Coldlights for Ancestral Knowledge.
But you kinda need to keep stuff like the Far Sights and Bloodmage Thalnos.
*Heal based Priest (Circle of Healing/Pyromancer combos with the new 4 drop minion for massive burst)
*Velen Priest (new Flash Heal card with Auchenai)
*Divine Spirit/Inner Fire deck (yeah yeah I know this card is a noob trap but this deck is definitely getting new tools to play with)
*Shadowform Aggro Priest (again, noob trap but it's also getting new tools to play with)
*Dragon Priest (3 new dragons to play around with, all of which are good in Priest)
So it's hard to get discussion going on just one particular deck that may rise in use.
As far as Malygos Shaman goes, yes I definitely think it's getting buffed and the buff might be enough to push it to the next level. I always said that Shaman lacked 3 things: Reliable card draw, massive AOE clear and a massive heal. Well Shaman ACTUALLY got all 3 of those tools! It really opens up the type of decks they can play. All 3 of those cards actually fit well into the Malygos deck because:
1) Card draw is the most essential component of that deck. People are using the crappiest of draws in that deck just to get their win conditions in. Ancestral Knowledge would be a perfect fit for the deck... you generally don't do that much after each turn anyway kinda like Freeze Mage.
2) The deck needs AOE clears and Elemental Destruction is a great tool for it. You don't actually care for your own minions in that deck because it's very minion light and that deck already plays with a ton of overload as it is. The deck even runs Lava Shock sometimes which will get pretty high value from Elemental Destruction (if you even need it).
3) The deck's main weakness is survivability and getting into the late game. It just gets rushed down so easily before the board clears come in or the combos come in. A huge heal like Healing Wave can allow you to get into that late game. It being a cheap spell relative to its potential heal means you can do heal + an AOE or removal to keep surviving.
I also agree that charged hammer fits well into that deck. You don't really care for Totems past a certain point anyway (though having that spell totem is nice) and the +2 damage is more useful for Malygos Shaman as they don't actually run cards that get benefit from having more minions on board. You can sort of use Charge Hammer to clear out some shitty minions, transition into the new hero power and use Healing Wave to heal up all the damage you took from all the aggro and face tanking with the weapon.
That deck needs more draw than that. Way more draw.
The current Malygos deck uses damn near every draw that the Shaman can potentially use. Like you would need Far Sight and Thalnos maybe even Azure Drakes in that list (both of which do get used currently). Some lists even use Coldlight Oracle although now there's no need for that.
http://www.icy-veins.com/hearthstone/legendary-shaman-malygos-combo-brm-deck
Like here's an example of the deck that gets used.
Obviously you would probably cut Healbots and Vitality Totems for double Healing Wave.
You would cut Stormforged Axe for Charged Hammer.
Mana Tide and Coldlights for Ancestral Knowledge.
But you kinda need to keep stuff like the Far Sights and Bloodmage Thalnos.
The issue with adding more card draw is that other than Far Sight which is bad because you have so many low mana spells, the other card draws are minions which can screw up Healing Wave especially Thalnos. Since you're running so few minions, the chance of getting Thalnos is actually quite high, like 25%. Unless of course you get it early and can play it out. Azure Drake is probably the only card draw that can work since it has a middling mana cost and has spell power.
Actually yeah the biggest problem with Malygos Shaman still is that Malygos Warlock is probably way more consistent.
That's how desperate Shaman is far card draw in that deck. They would actually use crap like Far Sight and Coldlight Oracle for the draws/cycle.
You generally just get/keep Thalnos in the mulligan in a deck like that. By the time you need to use Healing Wave you probably should've drawn into it. Definitely needs to get some playtesting like Grim Patron to see which configuration is the most optimum but just like Patron that deck needs a ton of card draw.
You generally just get/keep Thalnos in the mulligan in a deck like that. By the time you need to use Healing Wave you probably should've drawn into it. Definitely needs to get some playtesting like Grim Patron to see which configuration is the most optimum but just like Patron that deck needs a ton of card draw.
There is yet to be a consistently good Malygos deck. I don't think any thing will change here with Shaman now, it's too gimmicky and unreliable to for a deck rely on a single big drop and some spells to win a game.
possible 14x2 heal on top of healbot might look promising but iceblock is still better and mage has icebarrier too to last long and far far far better spells and it's still not all that good to make a Malygos freeze mage.
possible 14x2 heal on top of healbot might look promising but iceblock is still better and mage has icebarrier too to last long and far far far better spells and it's still not all that good to make a Malygos freeze mage.
FiveSix4Three
Member
I'm upset that they only made one murloc in this expansion.
Murloc Paladin is fun as hell to play, but there is no room for another 4 drop in the deck.
Murloc Paladin is fun as hell to play, but there is no room for another 4 drop in the deck.
crazygambit
Member
Why is Far Sight considered crap? I just read it for the first time the other day and it seems an autoinclude for me in any Shaman deck. In most cases it's just like running a 28 card deck, which should be an advantage.
I know in Magic you almost always want a lower number of cards, I've often wondered until what point. I think some decks could win with just 7 cards. But then again you can cycle your graveyard in Magic.
Here, with fatigue being a real thing, I'm sure the optimal cards in a deck is higher than Magic, but it should still be below 30 IMO.
So again, why is Far Sight bad? Sure it's a little slow and you definitely don't want it in your starting hand, and I guess it can backfire if you draw something you can't play that turn (though it makes your following turn much stronger, potentially allowing you to play a 7 mana card on T4). I don't know, it seems pretty good to me.
It's 3 mana for just one card draw and in the Malygos deck you are likely to draw a spell that is less than 3 mana.
That has always been the problem with the card. Now if it hits an Emperor Thaurissan or a Malygos then yeah it's absolutely amazing but you are talking about hitting 2 cards out of 26 (not including the other Far Sight if you draw it).
Plus it's anti synergy with the Shaman overload cards. If you hit a Lightning Bolt with that card you aren't getting the discount on the Overload. Now if you got discount on the Overload effect then we would have something to talk about.
That has always been the problem with the card. Now if it hits an Emperor Thaurissan or a Malygos then yeah it's absolutely amazing but you are talking about hitting 2 cards out of 26 (not including the other Far Sight if you draw it).
Plus it's anti synergy with the Shaman overload cards. If you hit a Lightning Bolt with that card you aren't getting the discount on the Overload. Now if you got discount on the Overload effect then we would have something to talk about.
Yeah, Murloc Knight is actually notably better than people are giving it credit for. People are imagining a Paladin murloc deck, which is wrong, as Neptulon showed us. Neptulon is occasionally played, but not in a murloc deck; he's just a good card in a mid range Shaman, and it happens to be murloc themed.
Murloc Paladin suffers from being in the same slot as Shredder, which is unfortunate. Its Inspire is the third best inspire effect, though, after Paletress and Nexus Champion Saraad's.
Professor Lich
Member
It's because it's uncontrollable and most of the time does nothing the turn you use it. You have to think about it like Innervate and Preparation, those cards that allow you to choose what gets discounted. You can also draw into a 0-2 cost mana card which wastes part of the effect. I believe those are the biggest reasons.
Personally I love the card. It was in one of my favorite and most fun Shaman decks right after Naxx came out. It was a Reincarnate/Ancestral Spirit deck with minions at 5 or higher. It was the deck where I got 5 or more Thaddius out on the board.
It could see more play if the game slows down enough. Farsight works perfect on a Joust Deck since you'll want high cost minions.
Well, Kodo Rider is kinda crap for a 6 drop too, but if unchecked it can get out of control as well. It can be as powerful as Patron (by itself) under some circumstances or just be easily removed potential like Trogzzor ended up being.
BananasWithGuns
Member
RIP Sideshow Spelleater.
https://twitter.com/CM_Whirthun/status/633299333593456640
I still might consider it for Shaman or Rogue though.
https://twitter.com/CM_Whirthun/status/633299333593456640
I still might consider it for Shaman or Rogue though.
crazygambit
Member
You can with Fencing Coach though. Which is why I think Fencing Coach is gonna be great and everyone is severely undervaluing it.
Yeah usually the better the Inspire effect the worse the stats on the cards.
You take the example of Silverhand Regent vs Paeltress in terms of extremes of Inspire effects.
Silverhand Regent has among the weakest Inspire effects that only gives you a 1/1 but the stats on it aren't that awful for a 3 mana minion (3/3).
Paeltress on the other hand has 3 full stats below just an average 4 mana creature (5/4). But the Inspire effect is the best in the game (easily) which is why this card is priced that way.
Kodorider is a mediocre 4 drop minion on stats so you are paying 2 mana for the Inspire effect. Technically Blizzard thinks that effect is stronger than Saraad which is a 5 mana 5/4 creature and they wouldn't be wrong.
I am just talking about the Inspire effects in a vacuum not really how powerful the card actually is. As an Inspire effect by itself, Kodorider's effect is at the worst the 3rd best in the game.
Another card with a strong Inspire effect is Mukla Champion. Blizzard thinks that power is better than Saraad's and almost as good as Kodorider's effect.
You're right, Kodo Rider is a better inspire.
If only kodorider's and Mulka's Champion' mana cost were switched (and stats changed to reflect that). Now it's awkard with fencing coach since if you play turn 5 Mukla's and turn 6 kodorider only one kodo gets the buff.
Again, Thank you everyone for your advice, I havent finished going to every link some of you posted, and Havent finished trumps tutorial, but Hopefully ill get it done, I have been doing much better, and so far Druid is doing good for me, but Im going to circle trough other clases to see if something is more suitable for me.
This game did surprised me the other day, I was in a casual match, against a Mage I believe, and Her hero was down to 5 energy and maybe just one minion on deck while I had like 4 or 5, I tough it was a win, all the sudden my opponent took a card that gave 4 damage to every minion, and basically erasing all my minions.
I have seen some people that like to humiliate you and instead of finishing the game, they make the game keep going even if they are sure to win, it happened to me once, My hero was at 1 health, the opponent had his table full of minions, and he was clicking on end turn every time.
This game did surprised me the other day, I was in a casual match, against a Mage I believe, and Her hero was down to 5 energy and maybe just one minion on deck while I had like 4 or 5, I tough it was a win, all the sudden my opponent took a card that gave 4 damage to every minion, and basically erasing all my minions.
I have seen some people that like to humiliate you and instead of finishing the game, they make the game keep going even if they are sure to win, it happened to me once, My hero was at 1 health, the opponent had his table full of minions, and he was clicking on end turn every time.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Daily reminder
If you have an android device and you're in Europe, you can buy the Grand Tournament pre-purchase thingy for a lot cheaper.
I got it for 39 euros instead of 50 euro.
If you have an android device and you're in Europe, you can buy the Grand Tournament pre-purchase thingy for a lot cheaper.
I got it for 39 euros instead of 50 euro.
how u do this
That is a bummer to hear. It is probably still worth running in a non-Totem Shaman deck, rogue is debatable based on whether or not you are running bladefury and the the various weapon buffs (Oil + bladefury might not be so necessary in our glorious control meta future).
Still a fun card, situationally useful but not a godlike PvE card now.
But the TGT pre-purchase is 45 euro normally in here. But still, 6 euro discount, can buy a beer or two to drink alongside when playing.
Portugeezer
Member
Maybe I missed this in the tutorial, but how does damage your minion receives by attacking other minions work? I don't seem to understand it.
Kodorider, Paletress and Saraad are the three inspire cards that must die right now.
Obviously you don't want to leave any up if possible, but (for instance) the Tournament Medic and Silver Hand Regent are examples of cards the sting if they get 2 inspires off but it's not deadly.
Those top 3 are going to burn really, really badly if they aren't instantly killed.
If you have a 3/3, for attack and health respectively, attacking your opponents 4/4, you'll do three damage to that minion leaving it as a 4/1, and they'll do 4 damage to your 3 health minion, so it'd be dead.
If it was a 2/4 minion, you'd be left with a 3/1 minion.
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