BananasWithGuns
Member
When you attack another minion with your minion they essentially fight each other.
Your minion takes their attack number in damage and their minion takes your attack number in damage.
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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When you attack another minion with your minion they essentially fight each other.
Your minion takes their attack number in damage and their minion takes your attack number in damage.
eh, it depends across the next few weeks as people try decks out to see what works. some classes like paladin and to some extent warrior got a few cards that push even further into aggro, but warrior especially has a few viable deck types now seeing as though they're pushing taunt warrior a bit
Aggro decks arent going anywhere.
The best we're talking about here is frequency. Just as an example using numbers I've pulled out of my butt, we might suggest that right now 60% of all decks on ladder are aggro focused. That number might drop to 50% with this set of cards. Maybe. If this occurs, slower decks that get blown up by aggro decks will become moderately more viable because they only face aggro 1 out of every 2 games instead of 3 out of every 5.
There is a 0% chance that "aggro" as a concept disappears entirely or is very rare (i.e. less than 10% of decks). In honesty, there should be aggro decks to keep the control decks honest; if aggro disappeared entirely, then there wouldn't be any reason not to run an entire deck of 6/7/8/9 drop legendaries because you won't be punished for having a terrible early game.
I'd also add that even if you removed what we currently call "aggro" from the game, then what we currently call "mid range" would just be called "aggro" instead.
In other words, "aggro" is really just a euphemism for "the fastest, most aggressive viable decks in the game." Whichever viable decks are fastest at any given time are the aggro decks.
If Blizzard really, really slowed down the game somehow (I don't think they will, the best they can hope for is to slow it slightly), then current aggro decks would cease to exist, mid range would become aggro, control decks would become mid range, and decks with 10+ legendary bomb minions would become viable as the new control archetype.
In other words, "aggro" is really just a euphemism for "the fastest, most aggressive viable decks in the game." Whichever viable decks are fastest at any given time are the aggro decks.
If Blizzard really, really slowed down the game somehow (I don't think they will, the best they can hope for is to slow it slightly), then current aggro decks would cease to exist, mid range would become aggro, control decks would become mid range, and decks with 10+ legendary bomb minions would become viable as the new control archetype.
My hope is that the aggro decks that come out of TGT at least play some minions in the 4-5-6 range unlike where they are now. When a 4-5-6 drop is considered a "late game" drop the game has moved too far in one direction and needs a course correction. If we end up in a world where the current "midrange" hunter is considered an aggro deck, I will be pretty happy.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Tomorrow is the long maintenance, so probably then.
I wonder if Troggzor might find his way (back) into control warrior, it complements Varian pretty well, better than Boom for example. But probably not though.
What's keeping someone from running Ysera, Alexstrasza, Ragnaros, Sylvanas, Boom, Tirion, Kel'Thuzad and Sneed's Shredder in a single deck? All of those are solid cards, most are played regularly in some decks, albeit not all in a single deck.
Answer: a deck like that would have too high a chance of having a starting hand full of 6/7/8 drops and would suffer too high a chance of being blown up by face hunter or ebolapaladin before they even play a card. If you get rid of face hunter, then there is no longer any clear penalty for just playing a priest who heals himself until turn 5 and then drops a sludge belcher and then drops giant bomb minions every turn after that.
You want to find a middle point where all of these deck arechetypes are viable and none begins to overshadow the other archetypes. Right now, aggro is probably a wee too strong, but you might be just as annoyed if it swung in the other direction and now mill decks and super bloated control decks took over instead.
Answer: a deck like that would have too high a chance of having a starting hand full of 6/7/8 drops and would suffer too high a chance of being blown up by face hunter or ebolapaladin before they even play a card. If you get rid of face hunter, then there is no longer any clear penalty for just playing a priest who heals himself until turn 5 and then drops a sludge belcher and then drops giant bomb minions every turn after that.
You want to find a middle point where all of these deck arechetypes are viable and none begins to overshadow the other archetypes. Right now, aggro is probably a wee too strong, but you might be just as annoyed if it swung in the other direction and now mill decks and super bloated control decks took over instead.
Naxxramas has more important cards, probably, overall. Blackrock is more fun to play, but both are surprisingly inventive and fun in their mechanics and Blackrock isn't without its great cards.
Take your pick: do you care more about getting slightly more great cards, or more about a slightly more fun single player adventure? Naxxramas is the former, Blackrock the latter. I'd probably pick Naxxramas, personally.
If there was a control meta there would be no need to run Sludge Belcher anyway.
People would literally play nothing if they were playing anything except a Handlock until Turn 7 Dr Balanced or turn 6 Emperor Thaurissan.
So yeah aggro decks have to exist to keep super greedy slow Control decks in check.
People would literally play nothing if they were playing anything except a Handlock until Turn 7 Dr Balanced or turn 6 Emperor Thaurissan.
So yeah aggro decks have to exist to keep super greedy slow Control decks in check.
And, not talking about the skill ceiling, but Aggro decks in HS are both easier to pilot and relatively cheap to build (look at Firebat on his f2p stream) for beginners, so there's that. But as Opiate said they are a wee bit too strong, too time efficient even while on the ladder.
This really is not true past rank 5, where there are No more bonus stars for streaks,but yeah aggro is the way to go until rank 5 for sure.
Really all you have to do is lower the win percentage. If the very best aggro decks and very best control decks both average 60% win rates when played well, then aggro is dominant. If the best aggro decks win 55% of the time and the best control decks 60% of the time, then you'd probably see a fairly even distribution. Playing aggro could move you up faster because it gets more games in, but maybe not, because it would have less consistent win streaks.
The issue with that approach is that it means aggro decks would not be played at the very highest level of the game, because once you're a professional you're no longer concerned with leveling up quickly and only concerned with maximizing win percentage. That's only an issue for a very tiny fraction of players, so it may be a problem, but just a very marginal one. I'm not sure.
Wishful thinking sorry.
Most prime cards are control based and aggro counters this well. Jousters are unreliable and paladin's new secret is a nice buff to aggro den.
I think you will see a small tilt to control until everyone gets bored and switches to aggro again.
Hunter is going to get ridiculous.
What buffs do you feel aggro hunter got? I don't really feel much was offered for that archetype (not that it needs to be, face hunter is still viable).
I definitely agree, but would add that right now there is virtually no control Priest and little control Warrior, which is also bad. There hasn't been a Priest deck of any archetype in the higher parts of the meta snapshot for months, and while Control Warrior is fine, you're far more likely to face a combo warrior than a control warrior right now.
I think control needs a little boost, but we're talking very small changes here. We don't want to shift the game too much or, as you said, the meta would become entirely about super bloated control decks. Just a gentle nudge is likely enough.
I definitely agree, but would add that right now there is virtually no control Priest and little control Warrior, which is also bad. There hasn't been a Priest deck of any archetype in the higher parts of the meta snapshot for months, and while Control Warrior is fine, you're far more likely to face a combo warrior than a control warrior right now.
I think control needs a little boost, but we're talking very small changes here. We don't want to shift the game too much or, as you said, the meta would become entirely about super bloated control decks. Just a gentle nudge is likely enough.
Looking at the cards in the new set that actually counter aggro or at least slow down the game (and not merely cards that are great late game like Varian):
Powershot
Dreadscale
Bear Trap (kinda sort of, it does put up a taunt to protect you)
Arcane Blast
Enter the Coliseum
Tuskarr Jouster
Flash Heal (arguably you can say that it promotes faster combo decks in Priest with Auchenai)
Power Word: Glory
Wyrmwrest Agent
Elemental Destruction
Healing Wave
Sparring Partner
Bolster
Chillmaw
Bolf Ramshield
Refreshment Vendor
Twilight Guardian
Tournament Medic
Gadgetan Jouster
Master Jouster
vs cards that promote aggro
Living Roots (in a Token Druid, you can make the argument that it could also be used to counter aggro)
Competitive Spirit
Seal of Champions
Warhorse Trainer
Spawn of Shadows
Buccaneer
Shady Dealer
Totem Golem & Tuskar Totemic (arguably they are good in most forms of Shaman decks but I would argue that their low cost and early impact makes them better aggro cards)
Wrathguard
Fjola Lightbane
Eydis Darkbane
Mukla's Champion
Skycap'n Kragg
Argent Horserider
Gormok the Impaler
Lance Carrier
I didn't really include obviously bad cards like Demonfuse here but I feel like this is a fair comparison. There are more cards that slow down the game and counter aggro than the other way around I feel. However there are still enough new aggro tools for them to play around with and Aggro Paladin especially seems particularly buffed along with more niche aggro decks like Token Druid.
Powershot
Dreadscale
Bear Trap (kinda sort of, it does put up a taunt to protect you)
Arcane Blast
Enter the Coliseum
Tuskarr Jouster
Flash Heal (arguably you can say that it promotes faster combo decks in Priest with Auchenai)
Power Word: Glory
Wyrmwrest Agent
Elemental Destruction
Healing Wave
Sparring Partner
Bolster
Chillmaw
Bolf Ramshield
Refreshment Vendor
Twilight Guardian
Tournament Medic
Gadgetan Jouster
Master Jouster
vs cards that promote aggro
Living Roots (in a Token Druid, you can make the argument that it could also be used to counter aggro)
Competitive Spirit
Seal of Champions
Warhorse Trainer
Spawn of Shadows
Buccaneer
Shady Dealer
Totem Golem & Tuskar Totemic (arguably they are good in most forms of Shaman decks but I would argue that their low cost and early impact makes them better aggro cards)
Wrathguard
Fjola Lightbane
Eydis Darkbane
Mukla's Champion
Skycap'n Kragg
Argent Horserider
Gormok the Impaler
Lance Carrier
I didn't really include obviously bad cards like Demonfuse here but I feel like this is a fair comparison. There are more cards that slow down the game and counter aggro than the other way around I feel. However there are still enough new aggro tools for them to play around with and Aggro Paladin especially seems particularly buffed along with more niche aggro decks like Token Druid.
Aggro only got brave warrior which isn't great but mid range/mix hunter got tons of tools.
Noxious rant on the Ice Rager/Evil Hecker power creep.
Time for Blizzard to introduce Dankgoblin (reverse hoblin which buffs 1 health minions) to buff Magma Rager!
Time for Blizzard to introduce Dankgoblin (reverse hoblin which buffs 1 health minions) to buff Magma Rager!
The OP has some good resources
BananasWithGuns
Member
Thinking more about Elemental Destruction. Maybe it's kind of okay.
I think maybe you could run one Lighting Storm and one Elemental Destruction in most decks. Yeah, it's essentially a panic button and it screws over your next turn but the one real positive about it is you can play it for 3 mana in the late game and instantly load up the board again without having to worry about Lightning Storm screwing you over as much.
I think maybe you could run one Lighting Storm and one Elemental Destruction in most decks. Yeah, it's essentially a panic button and it screws over your next turn but the one real positive about it is you can play it for 3 mana in the late game and instantly load up the board again without having to worry about Lightning Storm screwing you over as much.
platypotamus
Member
Wonder what happens if you cast it turn 3. I think it's the first possible way to end up with more overload than actual mana?
dust devil
crazygambit
Member
Bear Trap is the only one I can think of. I think it could definitely have a place in Face Hunter, instead of doing 2 damage with Explosive you have a creature that can do 3 next turn. I probably wouldn't run it instead of Explosive Trap and even if I don't end up running it, just by existing it strengthens hunters. Now if you go face against a hunter, everything you own could be hit by 2, or your attacker returned to your hand and cost 2 more or spawning a 3/3 beast. Oh the mind games.
From an aggro point of view, It's nice that it spawns after the opponent hits your face instead of becoming the target of the attack. Now before he attacks he has to consider saving resources to kill a 3/3 or face a Kill Command for 5 next turn. The taunt is completely irrelevant though, like Misha's.
Darkflight
Member
TGT Brawl this week:
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/980-the-grand-tournament-tavern-brawl-this-wednesday
http://www.hearthpwn.com/news/980-the-grand-tournament-tavern-brawl-this-wednesday
BananasWithGuns
Member
Nice that they're letting people play as Medivh and Alleria. Also nice for me since I only own Magni.
Of course, Alleria's voice is pretty awful.
Of course, Alleria's voice is pretty awful.
Arena being left in the back burner as always....
Kolento was also playing inner fire + dive spirit in legend. What happened to the meta at top?
I think they've just given up on it. There's nothing to suggest otherwise.
It's only gonna get worse when more people play ranked for rewards and casual players turn to brawls. I can't imagine a lot of people are paying real money for arena runs.
is there anything that can kill stealth units besides aoe?
I played a coin nax shade on turn one, and then fucked up and went face with it when it was 7/7 and my opponent had no minions because I was worried he would kill it somehow.
How long do you leave a shade on the board before revealing? always just save it to kill a minion or what?
I played a coin nax shade on turn one, and then fucked up and went face with it when it was 7/7 and my opponent had no minions because I was worried he would kill it somehow.
How long do you leave a shade on the board before revealing? always just save it to kill a minion or what?
Yes, random effects. For instance, a Rampaging Kodo can kill a 2/3 stealth. The ogres can attack the wrong target and that target can be stealthed. Arcane Missiles randomly hits 3 enemies, and those enemies can be stealthed. A 7/7 shade when stealthed is nearly unkillable. Double flamestrike maybe, or Mogor The Ogre, which is not played.
So I probably should have just saved it for lethal.
Minsc
Gold Member
I really think people are overselling Tuskaar but we'll see. It's a 3-drop that trades to a 1-drop, and half the time does nothing more (summons a 0/2 minion). Sometimes you get a 1/1, which is pretty bad, and sometimes you get a free card with is pretty good, sometimes you get a 5/2 and 0/3, and your 5/2 still dies to a 1-drop, and sometimes you get a great 3/4 minion, which is about the only time it's a great play imo.
Put against a Muster paladin or aggro deck, all other scenarios don't help much at all except the 3/4. Heck it pretty much fails horribly to a Shielded Minibot in all cases except MTT and TG. Most of the time you play this card on turn 3, I don't think you'll be doing much to regain the board.
Put against a Muster paladin or aggro deck, all other scenarios don't help much at all except the 3/4. Heck it pretty much fails horribly to a Shielded Minibot in all cases except MTT and TG. Most of the time you play this card on turn 3, I don't think you'll be doing much to regain the board.
toddhunter
Member
I don't think I'll run Tuskaar unless I'm making bloodlust deck attempt #134. There are better cards.
That arena value though.
That arena value though.
The game itself definitely says that the brawl awards a pack during 'launch' or something to that effect, and I'm sure Blizzard has specifically said that the pack reward may only be for a limited time. I hope I'm wrong.
And is there any data on brawl play? I mean, well after the initial brawl to win the pack, I'm pretty sure tons of people are playing it and that it's wildly successful. People in this thread go nuts for most of them.
What's the difference between a Combo Priest and a Control Priest, really? (Or any class really) Does the former rely specifically on one-turn wonders?
I mean, Control Decks are kind of at their best when their stars align on later turns and they have brilliant single turns, too.
I mean, Control Decks are kind of at their best when their stars align on later turns and they have brilliant single turns, too.
That is why I always run at least 1 deadly shot in every hunter deck. Play a taunt/stealth/big minion? sucks to be you!
Yes,a combo priest is looking for a specific set of cards to blow you up with, while a control Priest is looking to gradually but relentlessly exhaust you, take board control, then inevitably defeat you.
A combo deck (not just for Priest) will typically have considerable card draw to accelerate how quickly they can reach their combo. They will likely have significantly less board presence outside this; for instance, combo priests are unlikely to have big minions like Ysera because they don't really aid them towards their combo. Patron warrior is another example of a combo deck, and Freeze mage is yet another. Control Warrior, by contrast, is full of life gain and big minions that are a pain to get rid of, as they hope to relentlessly but gradually exhaust your ability to deal with them, and then eventually overwhelm you.
In the case of Priest, your combo is Emperor Thaurissan in to Prophet Velen + Mind Blast + Mind Blast. With Thaurissan played, in a single turn Priest can play Velen + Mind Blast + Mind Blast + Holy Smite for 24 damage to the face.
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