I'm racking my brains to think how this isn't completely useless.
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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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I'm racking my brains to think how this isn't completely useless.
Officerrob
Banned
Watcher is a better card
I don't think the new card is super bad, but I think it'd be a lot more appealing if it was 3/4.
Right now I can't see anyone ever playing it in constructed. It's just so awkward, drop it on 2 and your mana efficiency is potentially fucked up on 3 if you hero power, and if not you have a dead card.
Actually I take my original statement back, it's complete trash.
Right now I can't see anyone ever playing it in constructed. It's just so awkward, drop it on 2 and your mana efficiency is potentially fucked up on 3 if you hero power, and if not you have a dead card.
Actually I take my original statement back, it's complete trash.
ReadingRambo
Member
Tough to say at this point. I can see this card working in zoo at least.
Early on Zoo doesn't have space to use hero power. They want to be filling out their curve with hero power. They also have amazing 2 drops as it is.
What if this card could attack as many times as you use hero power? Now that would be a cool Inspire card.
ReadingRambo
Member
On curve without support itll just sit there like several zoo cards, but zoo hero powers more than anyone else so itll at least have pseudo taunt with a big butt early game.
BananasWithGuns
Member
It is kind of sad that, of all the cards we've seen, the best ones are the ones that don't have Inspire lol.
Still counting on more cards with the synergy to make it work though..
Still counting on more cards with the synergy to make it work though..
ReadingRambo
Member
Yep. It's like we have to bitch about something being overpowered or something being underwhelming.
This card doesn't even look good in a deck that focuses on Inspire. That's the problem.
Like if I were to make an Inspire deck, I would use pretty much every other Inspire card except for this card.
By comparison.. the Shaman Totem cards are actually good even if that deck type might not be a thing.
crazygambit
Member
Or at least 3/4.
But watcher's 4/5 is 4 mana worth of stats for 2 mana. Here you're adding +0/+1 worth of stats for the huge penalty of having to use your hero power every time you want to attack.
It's worthless.
ReadingRambo
Member
It's not a huge penalty in zoo as you do it anyway pretty reliably past turn 5. It's never completely dead like watcher can become.
the whole point of ancient watcher is that it stays on the board with those stats, this thing is weaker than a spider tank, it takes 4 mana for it to deal 2+1 damage for example and with that text it won't live on the board, you can let ancient live because chances are there is no silence or argus around and trading is very awful for you, this one? it's nothing. Actually inspire makes it worse. I would have it 1 mana without inspire, it would be better card! lol
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
I think the backlash against this expansion and Inspire is WAY premature and overblown. The point is obviously stacking effects and combos and not just one card with a good Inspire. I'm fairly confident once we've seen the new meta we'll realize these cards couldn't have been much stronger without being OTK material.
ReadingRambo
Member
Again, the point of new cards isn't to replace all the old cards.
Officerrob
Banned
That's both hilarious and sad.
Look, it's a new card!
*2 minutes later*
It could kinda be decent in these certain instances
*2 minutes later*
Yeah, it's unplayable
It would still be garbage. Stormwind Knight already does that and he's 2/5 and never gets played outside arena.
You're looking at it the wrong way.
Ancient Watcher is a 4/5 that needs to be buffed (or silenced) to be useful.
Argent Watchman loses 3 stats, but is useful much more often in the right deck.
Let's say you Hero Power every other turn on Handlock. Then Watchman becomes a Watcher on which you gave up 3 stats in order for it to be active half the time with no intervention. If you're Handlock vs Face Hunter, and you drop Ancient Watcher on turn 2, you're not guaranteed to be able to use it at all on turn 3. They can drop Knife Juggler or Huffler or Spectral Spiders and just go face.
However, with Watchman, you're guaranteed to be able to use it whenever you want, provided that the situation is favorable. It will out trade most of the aggressive 2 drops in this game, and they can never be certain when you actually want to use it, which is very different from Ancient Watcher, where they will pretty much play the same until you actually make it a threat.
This is the tradeoff here.
Will it replace Watcher? Maybe not. There are other reasons for Handlock to run Watcher, the main one being Shadowflame. But it's possible for a slightly faster variant of Handlock (similar to Demonlock) to run this instead.
Ancient Watcher is a 4/5 that needs to be buffed (or silenced) to be useful.
Argent Watchman loses 3 stats, but is useful much more often in the right deck.
Let's say you Hero Power every other turn on Handlock. Then Watchman becomes a Watcher on which you gave up 3 stats in order for it to be active half the time with no intervention. If you're Handlock vs Face Hunter, and you drop Ancient Watcher on turn 2, you're not guaranteed to be able to use it at all on turn 3. They can drop Knife Juggler or Huffler or Spectral Spiders and just go face.
However, with Watchman, you're guaranteed to be able to use it whenever you want, provided that the situation is favorable. It will out trade most of the aggressive 2 drops in this game, and they can never be certain when you actually want to use it, which is very different from Ancient Watcher, where they will pretty much play the same until you actually make it a threat.
This is the tradeoff here.
Will it replace Watcher? Maybe not. There are other reasons for Handlock to run Watcher, the main one being Shadowflame. But it's possible for a slightly faster variant of Handlock (similar to Demonlock) to run this instead.
ReadingRambo
Member
Hey what if it was Inspire: this minion gains the ability to attack.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Well let's put it this way. Obviously it's premature analysis since we haven't seen all the cards but, what Inspire card do you guys actually see being played in Inspire based decks?
The only ones that I feel are good enough to make their way into decks are Nexus-Champion Saraad, Silver Hand Regent and MAYBE Thunder Bluff Valiant.
You have stuff like Maiden of the Lake an Garrison Commander that can help synergize with those cards and get more value out of them but so far we haven't seen anything that makes me think a lot of the Inspire cards will be worth running.
Obviously, as I said, we haven't seen all the cards so it's impossible to know how things will shake out once all 132 cards are out there in the wild but just from what we've seen so far I don't really blame people for being a bit indifferent about the Inspire mechanic.
The only ones that I feel are good enough to make their way into decks are Nexus-Champion Saraad, Silver Hand Regent and MAYBE Thunder Bluff Valiant.
You have stuff like Maiden of the Lake an Garrison Commander that can help synergize with those cards and get more value out of them but so far we haven't seen anything that makes me think a lot of the Inspire cards will be worth running.
Obviously, as I said, we haven't seen all the cards so it's impossible to know how things will shake out once all 132 cards are out there in the wild but just from what we've seen so far I don't really blame people for being a bit indifferent about the Inspire mechanic.
ReadingRambo
Member
I think we will see a card similar to Feign Death for the inspire mechanic which will make inspire much stronger over all. Probably attached to a minion with "Inspire: Trigger all Inspire abilities on active minions"
I thought of this as well but generally you don't want to kill Scientist.
However, if you do kill a Hunter's Scientist, you can also use it to "eat" the trap, Hero Powering all the way like you normally want to do. Handlock does have a problem where Freezing Trap really messes with Twilight Drake and the Giants so this is just one more way of circumventing that weakness, should it prove to be worthwhile.
As for the inspire deck enabler card, I'm not sure what it could be that makes all of these cards useful..
Your inspire minions cost one less isn't good enough, inspire minions so far like 2-3 mana inefficient. If it's like mechwarper even mechs are struggling now and those don't need a trigger after they are played.
If it's a card that inspires all minions, then it's the problem of getting these sluggish minions out there in the first place.
I think there has to be two different cards then we could enable inspire decks really to be up to par with everything else or possibly better even.
Your inspire minions cost one less isn't good enough, inspire minions so far like 2-3 mana inefficient. If it's like mechwarper even mechs are struggling now and those don't need a trigger after they are played.
If it's a card that inspires all minions, then it's the problem of getting these sluggish minions out there in the first place.
I think there has to be two different cards then we could enable inspire decks really to be up to par with everything else or possibly better even.
crazygambit
Member
Playing it on turn 2 and not being able to use it till turn 5 is a huuuuge tempo penalty. Not worth the extra 1 life at all IMO. By turn 5 anything can kill it with impunity and it didn't get to trade against any 1 or 2 mana minions, which is the whole purpose of a card like this.
I think it's you that's looking it the wrong way. Think about what exactly you're gaining. 1 health, that's it. That would be great if you could immediately trade with 2 cost 3/2 minions, but you can't. That extra health isn't gonna help you against 4 mana drops like shredder or yetis that still trade 2 to 1 against this. I guess you could waste your entire turn 3 to attack with this (or maybe with coin you could play a 2 cost minion as well), but it seems like a huge waste of tempo for very little value.
I think it's pretty clear this won't ever see play in constructed and doesn't even seem good for Arena.
Yep I have the same problem with Mages. My best runs usually come from Paladins and Warlocks with lots of cheap cards.
Right now Shaman Totem Inspire deck seems like it could work.
The other option is the Mage Inspire deck simply because they have Fallen Hero and Coldarra Drake.
Kodo Rider is actually pretty insane for Inspire decks as a late game option especially if you have a Garrison out. Getting out 3 3/5s is no joke. That's probably the most powerful Inspire effect in the game right now because you are getting a 3/5 for 2 mana.
Frost Giant is also an option for Inspire decks because the decks are built around using your Hero power a lot. Silverhand Regent is also usable especially for a Paladin based Inspire deck.
MAYBE Lowly Squire. MAYBE Justicar. MAYBE Saraad. I would not use this new card or Colisseum Manager.
But this is currently not nearly enough to be competitive.
Right now the seemingly best cards in the set are ones that don't actually use Inspire mechanic. The twin Valkyrie Legendary, Effigy, Lock n Load (potentially), Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic etc.
The other option is the Mage Inspire deck simply because they have Fallen Hero and Coldarra Drake.
Kodo Rider is actually pretty insane for Inspire decks as a late game option especially if you have a Garrison out. Getting out 3 3/5s is no joke. That's probably the most powerful Inspire effect in the game right now because you are getting a 3/5 for 2 mana.
Frost Giant is also an option for Inspire decks because the decks are built around using your Hero power a lot. Silverhand Regent is also usable especially for a Paladin based Inspire deck.
MAYBE Lowly Squire. MAYBE Justicar. MAYBE Saraad. I would not use this new card or Colisseum Manager.
But this is currently not nearly enough to be competitive.
Right now the seemingly best cards in the set are ones that don't actually use Inspire mechanic. The twin Valkyrie Legendary, Effigy, Lock n Load (potentially), Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic etc.
How is Watcher going to help if you don't draw taunt givers? You'll have Drake and Mountain Giant for the Shredders and Yetis, and Watchman for the Jugglers and Spiders and Flame Imps.
Stop comparing it to generic 2/3s. Compare it to Ancient Watcher and its position in Handlock. The parallels are obvious.
A---- Watch----
2 Drop
Can't Attack
Really you guys are unappeasable.
Frost Giant comes out: OMG That's what Handlock needs, another Giant, thanks Blizzard, nice game!!!
Argent Watchman comes out: WTF this is terrible, why don't you make it 1 mana so Handlock can play it on curve, or 3/4 so it's even better than Watcher?
Minsc
Gold Member
2/4 can't attack unless inspire... just view the cards from the eyes of the current top-meta decks.
Patron warrior loves you for playing this card (free draw from acolytes)
Face hunter would enjoy seeing their opponent hero power and not attack as much as possible
Mech/Tempo mage also enjoys seeing minions on the board that don't do anything
Freeze mage isn't phased.
Zoolock welcomes the setback.
Even Priest sees you not being able to play this card in response to a Cleric unless you give them free draw, and it's a decent Cabal target if nothing else for them later on.
I fail to see what good ranked deck sees this card as a threat.
A 4/5 Watcher is a much larger threat, and can kill minions when taunted or silenced. I suppose the one plus is as Priest you can put that +2/+4 enchantment on it and make it a 4/8, at which point it becomes somewhat useful unless it gets silenced. Unfortunately you have to hero power before you can attack, so you can't clean up damage it takes from fighting the board though.
Patron warrior loves you for playing this card (free draw from acolytes)
Face hunter would enjoy seeing their opponent hero power and not attack as much as possible
Mech/Tempo mage also enjoys seeing minions on the board that don't do anything
Freeze mage isn't phased.
Zoolock welcomes the setback.
Even Priest sees you not being able to play this card in response to a Cleric unless you give them free draw, and it's a decent Cabal target if nothing else for them later on.
I fail to see what good ranked deck sees this card as a threat.
A 4/5 Watcher is a much larger threat, and can kill minions when taunted or silenced. I suppose the one plus is as Priest you can put that +2/+4 enchantment on it and make it a 4/8, at which point it becomes somewhat useful unless it gets silenced. Unfortunately you have to hero power before you can attack, so you can't clean up damage it takes from fighting the board though.
ReadingRambo
Member
I think playing this card on curve is probably always bad.
I know it's really only possible to value cards based on known information (which is why trickled spoilers are stupid for a set of this size) but I think it's a better exercise to think about how it can work and what else would need to be revealed to support it or push a card into a tier one deck. Maybe it's glass half full vs. half empty.
It's funny how that card is almost always better than Harvest Golem, which was widely played before GvG and considered the best neutral 3-drop, and get called unplayable.
Analysis comparison, not by me, quoting a LiquidHeart user:
1. it has stealth.
2. the remaining body has 2 health rather than 1. (which means it cant be pinged)
3. Harvest Golems original body survives up to 2 damage before going to its second body (quite relevant for early game)
4. if silenced, it leaves a 2/2 body instead of a 2/3. (note that stealth protects it from most silence until you get an oppurtunity to do something useful with it)
5. buffing silent knight buffs both the attack on the first "body" and the attack and health on the second "body", plus divine shield sinergy (blood knight)
6. it has neither deathrattle synergy (Undertaker, Baron Rivendare, Feign Death) nor deathrattle weakness (Lil' Exorcist, Scarlet Purifier).
7. Harvest Golem can be buffed with divine shield, silent knight can only be buffed with divine shield if it first loses its existing one.
8. Harvest Golem triggers "on summon" effects twice. (Knife Juggler, etc)
9. Harvest Golem is more resistant to hard-removal but silent knight is more difficult to target with said hard removal.
Trades with Huffler, Knife Juggler, Spider, Scientist, Leper Gnome, Infiltrator, etc.
Mirror Image, Sorcerer's Apprentice.
Knife Jugger, Flame Imp, Voidwalker, Creeper.
Priest is bad, no one cares what a Priest thinks.
If you have a taunt or silence and if, and this the big one, you don't have targets you'd prefer to taunt/silence instead of Watcher.
This is a self-sufficient Watcher, for Handlock. Look at it in that context and it's much better than the initial impression would lead you to believe.
What would be a reasonable card whose only purpose is to activate inspire that people would still want to fit into a deck?
0 mana trigger your hero power? 0 mana trigger a random hero power?
1 mana trigger your hero power draw a card?
2 mana trigger your hero power twice?
I can't find a good balance, either they're underwhelming or overpowered.
0 mana trigger your hero power? 0 mana trigger a random hero power?
1 mana trigger your hero power draw a card?
2 mana trigger your hero power twice?
I can't find a good balance, either they're underwhelming or overpowered.
The way you balance is this:
If an Inspire power is really strong for the 2 mana hero cost... then you lower the stats of the actual minion. An example is Kodo Rider which is awful as a 3/5 for 6 mana but a 2 mana 3/5 summon is godlike.
If an Inspire power isn't really that strong then you make the stats respectable. Silver Hand Regent is a 3 mana 3/3 which is fair as it has an upside but the Inspire bonus is just summon a 1/1 which isn't too much.
Who knows how viable inspire synergies will ultimately be, but there's no denying the powerful combos that are emerging. It's just a question of whether they can realistically be pulled off. The cards that buff your hero power are the key, and I don't know if we've seen them all.
I don't know why some people are climbing over each other to write this mechanic off immediately. The potential is there.
I don't know why some people are climbing over each other to write this mechanic off immediately. The potential is there.
crazygambit
Member
Ok. I don't know why you should, since 2/3 plus an ability is absolutely standard for 2 mana, but Ok let's play.
Let's get something clear right of the bat, Watcher is absolutely terrible unless your deck is specially designed to make use of it. Pulling it out of a Shredder is probably the worst possible minion you can get. So if you don't wanna compare it to generic 2/3s then you're comparing it to a 4/5 in a deck that runs lots of ways to either silence your minions or give them taunt. In such a deck gaining a measly 1 life is useless. The 4/5 is always gonna be better, even if you give taunt to both I'd much rather have a 4/5 (a 3/5 taunt costs 4 btw) that can't attack than a 2/4 taunt that can attack sporadically. There's no reason to run this over Watcher IMO.
Edit: To be honest I think a 2 mana 2/4 with no text and no class or tribe affiliation would be about right. Giving it a huge penalty seems super excessive.
ReadingRambo
Member
That effect would most likelybe something attached to a creature like "Battlecry: Your hero power can be cast once for 0 mana" since neutral spells aren't a thing.
true that. Good call.
ReadingRambo
Member
edit: Reading fail. It's almost as if blizzard new Watcher and Watchman were similar in purpose!
ReadingRambo
Member
Pally divine shield deck with the legendary twins is gonna be a thing. I'm already building it!
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