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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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I think Druid is one of the better classes to play vs patron, they have lots of taunts with 3 attack, lots of ways to put pressure early, and can sometimes clear the patrons with double wrath keeper silence and shit.
Eboladin does have a comeback factor... it's called Divine Favor and top dick Arcane Golems with Blessing of Mights.
NCR Redslayer
NeoGAF's Vegeta
I like how Dr. Boom wasn't ever good enough to warrant a nerf
Go for Face hunter.
Go for Face hunter.
Midrange Hunter isn't great. It performs well in tournaments but against the ladder's aggro meta it's junk.
Midrange Paladin does a bit better because it gets access to Consecrate and some heals. Procarbine does well with it although you pretty much need Tirion and Harrison to counter Hunter/Patron/Paladin.
Midrange Zoo often dies before it can do its things but it's still decent.
Midrange Shaman might as well not exist.
Midrange Paladin does a bit better because it gets access to Consecrate and some heals. Procarbine does well with it although you pretty much need Tirion and Harrison to counter Hunter/Patron/Paladin.
Midrange Zoo often dies before it can do its things but it's still decent.
Midrange Shaman might as well not exist.
I can't make smart trades. The mage puts out a ton of early minions and I ain't got jack and shit to trade with.
WesternHeretic
Member
Divine favor is great if the game is close but if you're behind you still can't comeback (Unless you're behind on board but ahead in health and praying for a divine favor into charge>lethal. Which again I wouldn't count that as entirely being *behind*).
I don't care how many cards you draw if there is a big 8/8 on the board you're not getting rid of that shit unless you running equality. Arcane Golem is great for late game lethal but anyone that run that shit early (especially vs Patron) you're guaranteed to lose. You're giving them a mana crystal for their stupid combo. Arcane Golem is a desperate play unless it's a lethal or setting up lethal for next turn.
Who cares about getting rid of a 8/8 when A) you have a silence B) you probably should be running at least one Equality anyway and C) you ignore it anyway and go for face.
The whole game plan of Eboladin is vomit your entire hand of 1s and 2s, put as much pressure as you can in the early game... then Divine Favor to refill your hand and burst them down. Against other aggressive decks you fight for board control and once you have the initiative you just pile on the face damage to race them to lethal. The only time you want to hold back is against a Handlock (when they are in the 15ish health range) and even then... 90% of these players don't respect Handlock anymore and just go for maximum DPT (damage per turn) anyway.
Eboladin is one of the few aggro decks that can actually recover from full board wipes simply because of Divine Favor and that's the primary reason why the deck is strong. It punishes slower decks for holding on to their cards. Without the Divine Favor comeback mechanic it would be a very mediocre aggro deck and would run out of steam pretty quickly.
If you got controlled while you put out like 4 minions in the first 2-3 turns then you deserve to lose anyway because many decks don't have ways to effectively remove multiple minions in the early game like that.
Of course Eboladin isn't unbeatable, it does have bad match ups.. even Grim Patron has bad match ups. But with the way Hearthstone is, decks like Eboladin can steal wins even after the board has been taken away from them.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV9UmF4WGxA
Grommash and Dread Corsair aren't required in this deck.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
It's a very obvious fake, but funny nonetheless.
A deck that is dependant on you drawing one specific card is trash.
So I'd been insisting on playing Leeroy Jenkins as a Piloted Shredder replacement in Nostam's aggro rogue deck because it seemed like a great finisher and I didn't have a second Piloted Shredder anyway. I found it frustrating to have Leeroy just sitting on my hand waiting for a lethal opportunity that never came though.
Just now I decided to remove it and add a Chillwind Yeti to closer mimic Nostam's deck, play one match... and the Yeti ends up kicking all sorts of ass.
That said, what do you guys think of the cards I've chosen to replace from Nostam's deck (because I'm missing them)? I have one of each so I've been forced to use these replacements:
2nd Argent Squire -> Abusive Sargeant
2nd Eviscerate -> Backstab
2nd Auto-Barber -> Annoyotron
2nd Arcane Golem -> Wolfrider
2nd SI7 Agent -> Naxx Shade
2nd Piloted Shredder -> Yeti
Just now I decided to remove it and add a Chillwind Yeti to closer mimic Nostam's deck, play one match... and the Yeti ends up kicking all sorts of ass.
That said, what do you guys think of the cards I've chosen to replace from Nostam's deck (because I'm missing them)? I have one of each so I've been forced to use these replacements:
2nd Argent Squire -> Abusive Sargeant
2nd Eviscerate -> Backstab
2nd Auto-Barber -> Annoyotron
2nd Arcane Golem -> Wolfrider
2nd SI7 Agent -> Naxx Shade
2nd Piloted Shredder -> Yeti
The only hard part with Patron is the "math" and to be honest... I never actually count shit with that deck.
Unless you are godly Kolento or you have spreadsheeted out the damage of Berserkers with X amount of enemies on the board with X amount of whirlwind effects... you generally just have a feel of lethal and the damage the Berserker can dish out with the combo.
Most of the time it's just overkill anyway especially with double Frothing. The times where it's close its against something like Control Warrior and they have above 30 EHP and you aren't actually use if your combo will kill them. Once you play the deck a lot you will just go for a few yolo Berserker charges starting out to get a feel for it (sometimes you will fail, sometimes you will succeed) and in time you will generally know when you have lethal or not.
The rest is just planning out your next move on the opponent's turn. If you plan on using some part of the combo on the next turn then you need to do it as soon as the turn begins so its easier to control the board with stuff like Patrons and the whirlwind effects. Otherwise you will just rope and miss out on damage plus other stuff. Sometimes you just need to go for it.
The only other hard part is the Freeze Mage match up. I played the match up wrong first few times and then I realized that you basically just plan to win this game by fatigue from the start. You have to map out your win for the long haul which means limiting your card draw. It's like the very opposite of how you want to play the deck against most decks. I didn't pick up on it until I saw someone like Zalae play the match up.
Against Aggro it's the EASIEST counter in the game. You have so many whirlwind effects and aggro counters in the deck that it's almost auto pilot. When you get Patron out its pretty much GG as well. Part of the reason why I wish Patron never gets nerfed because it destroys aggro so hard. Nothing like wiping a whole board of Abusive Sergeants, Leper Gnomes, Worgen Infiltrators, Recruits and other garbage minions with a Whirlwind effect then gain a bunch of armor with Armorsmith while also drawing cards with Acolyte.
Unless you are godly Kolento or you have spreadsheeted out the damage of Berserkers with X amount of enemies on the board with X amount of whirlwind effects... you generally just have a feel of lethal and the damage the Berserker can dish out with the combo.
Most of the time it's just overkill anyway especially with double Frothing. The times where it's close its against something like Control Warrior and they have above 30 EHP and you aren't actually use if your combo will kill them. Once you play the deck a lot you will just go for a few yolo Berserker charges starting out to get a feel for it (sometimes you will fail, sometimes you will succeed) and in time you will generally know when you have lethal or not.
The rest is just planning out your next move on the opponent's turn. If you plan on using some part of the combo on the next turn then you need to do it as soon as the turn begins so its easier to control the board with stuff like Patrons and the whirlwind effects. Otherwise you will just rope and miss out on damage plus other stuff. Sometimes you just need to go for it.
The only other hard part is the Freeze Mage match up. I played the match up wrong first few times and then I realized that you basically just plan to win this game by fatigue from the start. You have to map out your win for the long haul which means limiting your card draw. It's like the very opposite of how you want to play the deck against most decks. I didn't pick up on it until I saw someone like Zalae play the match up.
Against Aggro it's the EASIEST counter in the game. You have so many whirlwind effects and aggro counters in the deck that it's almost auto pilot. When you get Patron out its pretty much GG as well. Part of the reason why I wish Patron never gets nerfed because it destroys aggro so hard. Nothing like wiping a whole board of Abusive Sergeants, Leper Gnomes, Worgen Infiltrators, Recruits and other garbage minions with a Whirlwind effect then gain a bunch of armor with Armorsmith while also drawing cards with Acolyte.
There is no need to count, 2 whirlwinds and two berserkers and only your inner raged patron kills everything, except maybe a armored up warrior, in that case 3 whirlwinds kill absolutely anything possible in the game.
if there are stuff on board, like 3 others. You don't even need patron. Every time you whirlwind your berserkers get +6 damage each. assuming you have warsong and two berserkers, and 3 on the other side. Now if it's with ghoul it's even better. So if you do it twice you have 28 damage on your berserkers total, that should be enough for most of the matches.
One berserker and 3 whirlwinds is enough for lethal too, assuming from a little less than 30 health.
Managing the game before then is the hard part. You don't have to wait for combo every game, this is not some lame gimmicky oil rogue deck. Against zoo and hunter you have to out right win board control with patrons, they can't do anything then since they don't have aoe. Mirror match is everyone going first usually wins, still you have the chance to use their patrons to win. Against control decks it's ez pz. you have all the time in the world to draw cards.
if there are stuff on board, like 3 others. You don't even need patron. Every time you whirlwind your berserkers get +6 damage each. assuming you have warsong and two berserkers, and 3 on the other side. Now if it's with ghoul it's even better. So if you do it twice you have 28 damage on your berserkers total, that should be enough for most of the matches.
One berserker and 3 whirlwinds is enough for lethal too, assuming from a little less than 30 health.
Managing the game before then is the hard part. You don't have to wait for combo every game, this is not some lame gimmicky oil rogue deck. Against zoo and hunter you have to out right win board control with patrons, they can't do anything then since they don't have aoe. Mirror match is everyone going first usually wins, still you have the chance to use their patrons to win. Against control decks it's ez pz. you have all the time in the world to draw cards.
Grim Patron mirror is simple.
Whoever gets out 4 Patrons first wins the game. If neither gets out Patrons by turn 5-6ish then whoever gets Emperor Balanced out wins the game. In the mulligan you basically keep those cards.
Patron Warrior itself is absolutely horrible at dealing with a board full of Patrons so whoever gets that out first generally wins. Of course this doesn't apply in the late game because then you would just be feeding the other player more on board minions for a Frothing OTK.
Whoever gets out 4 Patrons first wins the game. If neither gets out Patrons by turn 5-6ish then whoever gets Emperor Balanced out wins the game. In the mulligan you basically keep those cards.
Patron Warrior itself is absolutely horrible at dealing with a board full of Patrons so whoever gets that out first generally wins. Of course this doesn't apply in the late game because then you would just be feeding the other player more on board minions for a Frothing OTK.
Been playing Patron most of this month and have a 60% win rate. I think the deck is very strong and will probably get nerfed. I'm not convinced it is overpowered, but I think the win condition for this deck feels really bad for the other player. I don't win every game with a 50+ frothing berzerker burst, but it happens just enough that I'm sure Blizzard will focus on that aspect for nerf.
Aggro is easy, but 3/10 games they will rush you down and nothing you can do. I'll take aggro pally and hunter any day though.
Mid-Range hunter is tough. They put just enough big stuff on board that if you don't get a good start you are screwed.
Mech Mage: They can also rush you down and if they get any freeze effects to stick you are screwed.
Freeze Mage: tough match up even though patron is favored. Freeze mages at rank 5-1 know how to play against patron, so it is basically who makes a mistake.
Zoolock: easy match up, but also one where they can rush you down if you don't get your whirlwind or weapons , but if you get set up correctly you clear their board and fill it up with patrons.
Handlock: Not as bad as some people think it is. Just need to save your patron or frothing combo until you can kill them. I beat them all the time.
Druid: Get patron on the board by turn 5 or 6 or you are in serious trouble. You can still come back as long as they don't curve into combo. Taunt druid is rough.
Lots of random other stuff on the ladder. Mages with ice block and duplicate behind sludge belchers are a pain in the ass.
Aggro is easy, but 3/10 games they will rush you down and nothing you can do. I'll take aggro pally and hunter any day though.
Mid-Range hunter is tough. They put just enough big stuff on board that if you don't get a good start you are screwed.
Mech Mage: They can also rush you down and if they get any freeze effects to stick you are screwed.
Freeze Mage: tough match up even though patron is favored. Freeze mages at rank 5-1 know how to play against patron, so it is basically who makes a mistake.
Zoolock: easy match up, but also one where they can rush you down if you don't get your whirlwind or weapons , but if you get set up correctly you clear their board and fill it up with patrons.
Handlock: Not as bad as some people think it is. Just need to save your patron or frothing combo until you can kill them. I beat them all the time.
Druid: Get patron on the board by turn 5 or 6 or you are in serious trouble. You can still come back as long as they don't curve into combo. Taunt druid is rough.
Lots of random other stuff on the ladder. Mages with ice block and duplicate behind sludge belchers are a pain in the ass.
Zoolock match up generally depends on the quality of the minions. If it's the aggro Zoolock version Patron absolutely demolishes that. If it's the slower midrange version then that's not as easy for Patron as there are quite a few minions that are tough to kill for the Patron and they can put serious pressure in the early game.
I think the Handlock player has to play either really bad or get really unlucky to lose to a Patron Warrior. Basically it's really hard for Patron Warrior to deal with Mountain Giants and Drakes then curve into Belchers with taunted Ancient Watchers. Once the double Executes are used up its a done deal for the Handlock. I have beaten Handlocks as well as Patron and one was a spectacular win where I managed to win despite there being 3 big taunts up but it generally boils down to whether the Handlock manages to pull their taunt activators or not.
I think Mech Shaman is also rough for Patron though not as tough as Mech Mage. Lots of pressure early on from minions that can't easily be killed by just Whirlwind effects and Fiery War Axe. They don't have the freeze effect to lock your weapons down though like Mech Mage but the burst is insane.
I think the Handlock player has to play either really bad or get really unlucky to lose to a Patron Warrior. Basically it's really hard for Patron Warrior to deal with Mountain Giants and Drakes then curve into Belchers with taunted Ancient Watchers. Once the double Executes are used up its a done deal for the Handlock. I have beaten Handlocks as well as Patron and one was a spectacular win where I managed to win despite there being 3 big taunts up but it generally boils down to whether the Handlock manages to pull their taunt activators or not.
I think Mech Shaman is also rough for Patron though not as tough as Mech Mage. Lots of pressure early on from minions that can't easily be killed by just Whirlwind effects and Fiery War Axe. They don't have the freeze effect to lock your weapons down though like Mech Mage but the burst is insane.
Mech Mage is the hardest to me, a snowchugger behind annoy-o-tron and you don't have execute? you're dead. By turn 4 the board is full of mechs, maybe even a Fel Reaver. There is so much you can remove. Some run brawl in the deck, it's not a bad idea. helps against other patrons too.
Yeah having one Brawl in a Patron deck could allow them to overcome some of their bad match ups. People have certainly run that in the past but the current Patron list that people use is super fast aggro counter heavy (as in Hybrd/Face Hunter and Eboladin type aggro... not the Mech type aggro).
I just killed a Handlock because they were smart enough to leave my Emperor alive and played a Twilight Drake/Ancient Watcher without taunting them while I had one charge left in my Death's Bite.
WesternHeretic
Member
What's the magic number that Handlock gets Molten for free? Should I stop right outside of it then look for a way to get lethal or draw silence?
toddhunter
Member
No, you keep going for face and hope they don't have free moltens (10 damage).
The other option is to play a real deck, then you can play around it.
Yeah that isn't true at all. Hunter is only way better if you get perfect draws, the mage doesn't get good draws and the mage doesn't know how to play properly.
10 or lower health they get it for free.
You want to put them in a situation where they can't do Molten Giant + Taunt or Molten Giant + Healbot or Molten Giant + Shadowflame (last one isn't as common as it once used to be). Say they are on like 7 mana, you want to keep them at 16 health because they can't do Molten Giant plus Sunfury Protector.
However if you have Equality/Owl in hand then you can just go for it and not worry them dropping down Moltens because you would have an answer. If you have a lot of burst in hand and on the board (like say a Truesilver GG equipped with an Arcane Golem + Blessing in hand) then it's a safe play to keep them in the teens rather than putting them below 10 HP.
It's more important for Aggro Paladin because they don't have a lot of burst from hand that goes through taunt. Face Hunter doesn't give a fuck about playing around Molten Giants as they have burn spells where as Paladin doesn't. Double Moltens with Sunfury and a Healbot can seal the game for an aggro Paladin if they don't have an equality or double Silences.
This is the sort of thing that you learn from experience playing the match up. Handlock used to be a very good noob killer because people would play right into Molten Giants. Nowadays burst is so high that even being at 15 health is too dangerous.
Super Nothing
Member
10 health = free Molten Giant.
WesternHeretic
Member
Very few decks run equality. I've been playing Eboladin exclusively for the last month and reading only about this deck. I've learn this deck inside out and every single version of it from every single legendary player/streamer, famous player.
There are plenty of situation where the big taunt is out there and there's nothing you can do. You can't exactly see if the druid player has two or one swipe, two or one of the 2/4 silence, nor how many taunts they have. Same goes for rouge and their combos, or warlock with hellfire, preist with nova.
All you can do is make the best decision on what you think off what information you have gathered from their mulligan, or plays (like if they play a top deck card or a mulligan card) and even then it's nothing more than an educated guess.
So you're going to have plenty of games where you can't face like an idiot and if anyone who think these decks are just face face face then let me see you get legendary playing like a moron.
Divine favor is to help you close out games more than save games (like you said comeback factor... or x-factor of marvel).
Any aggro paladin whats to have a full board of small 2/1 1/1 or those but buffed, and in order to do that you that you must fill the board, which means you have less cards in your hand. So that's why divine favor is needed so you don't have to top deck your way to victory every fucking game. However if you lose board to AOE (double swipe, double hellfire, double hounds, nova , consec (in mirror match) etc..) you can't prep for that. Shit happens it's all RNG. Divine favor is most likely not going to save you unless you still haven't played either of your muster and they are all out of AOE. And if that's your game plan then good fucking luck on winning.
Divine Favor is more of an offensive card to close out game then a defensive card for comebacks. Watch any streams of any pro player playing this deck you will notice it.
Thanks. So magic number is 11. By then I should theoretically have lethal or silence + lethal or double silence.
Onion_Relish
Member
10 health is when you get free Moltens, but the appropriate health to leave a lock at is always changing.
If the warlock is on 7 mana, the appeopriate health would probably be 16, that way, they can only play a molten with no taunt even if they tap.
And of course, it depends what is in your hand, if you have an owl then it's probably on to leave a 7 mana lock at 14, because even if they tap, they can only taunt one molten which you then silence. If you have BGH or equality, then it probably doesn't matter at all
I have played against enough Aggro Paladin, played as enough Aggro Paladin and watched enough "pro" streamers play Paladin to know that Divine Favor is still a "comeback" card. This isn't some new concept or deck... it has been around for years. There has been many matches in my experience where the Paladin has lost the board completely then uses Divine Favor and then redevelops the entire board again because of all the cheap minions or they Divine Favor and get a massive combo damage for lethal.
Similar to how Molten Giants are a comeback card. It gives you advantage when you are losing HP. In the case of Divine Favor it allows you to comeback from a huge card deficit.
There isn't anything wrong with calling the cards that, it's not some notorious thing like X factor. But that card gives Paladin a tool that other aggro decks don't have so it's something that is noteworthy. You should try out other extreme aggro decks to feel out the difference.
toddhunter
Member
Divine favour is definitely a comeback card. You might not realise it, but when you have no cards left against a good player you are 100% fucked.
Unless you have divine favour...then you can come back.
Unless you have divine favour...then you can come back.
toddhunter
Member
You just don't know how to play. Why were you not making smart trades?
I traded my Skeleton Knight for nothing. That's about all he's good for.
The mage deck is definitely more versatile. I just killed a guy with a Coldarra Drake who lets me use my hero power infinite times. 6 damage from the drake, and then I just spammed my hero power to victory. Mage already has a very resourceful hero power, and the new cards just make it even better.
You may be winning. But the decks are not even remotely balanced. Looking at them, its a bit of a joke how much synergy the Mage has in comparison, but thats not the kicker, its the synergy mixed with a superior early game mixed with strong late game also. The hunter has weak early game but probably looks to make it up with those 7-9 mana behemoths, but that doesn't track when the mage gets board stalls like Blizzard, and a couple of 8/8 giants that wont cost anything thanks to deck synergy and 6/6's to round out that deck. Toss in 5 mana 8 damage spells to deal with your late game and its super lopsided.
More than anything, the mage deck reads like someone who knows how to build a themed deck. The cards are quality and make sense when bundled, which is important. And it has clear ways to create win conditions, toss in cc(removal) and even boardwide damage with Blizzard, and the deck makes sense.
The hunter deck seems like something an AI auto deck builder would make. On the surface it would seem to make sense, but no effort is made to look at the curve of the cards for example. Im going to want some quality 3 drops/cards if Im running all those 7 mana minions so at the late game I have a way to play more than one thing per turn. There's just a lot of problems with it.
WesternHeretic
Member
Excuse my Marvel reference... but I just personally believe that's not how it should be use. It's like someone popping x-factor level 3 strider vs a full team of heavy hitters. Yea okay maybe you kill 2 characters then what? get smack 2 times and die? It's a last ditch effort when you have nothing. It should be use like x-factoring the 2nd character and give that last 3rd incoming character the stupidest 50/50 follow by another 50/50 if they get out of that shit.
Rank #1.... the real grinds start now.... AHHHHHH
The worst part is that it dies to BGH... twice!
Randomizer123454444
Member
Ladder has been very weird for the past week (EU) .
Tried climbing up in ranked with my priest deck yesterday, I was at rank 12. 3 hours laters I'm still rank 12. I saw more golden portraits during that time than in last few months combined.
And I saw very little aggro. Handlock, control warrior, oil rogue, you name it. But I saw only one face hunter and one zoo. My anti-aggro deck didn't do that well.
Tried climbing up in ranked with my priest deck yesterday, I was at rank 12. 3 hours laters I'm still rank 12. I saw more golden portraits during that time than in last few months combined.
And I saw very little aggro. Handlock, control warrior, oil rogue, you name it. But I saw only one face hunter and one zoo. My anti-aggro deck didn't do that well.
I don't agree. Mage seems much stronger at first glance, but Hunter has enough early game tools to compete. Arcane shots, Elekks, Animal companions, traps and most importantly Lock and Load. I've used it plenty of times in early game with coin to generate value. Both decks have late game drops and ways to clear them. It comes down to player skill and most importantly: patience, these are low tier decks so you need to pilot them accordingly.
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