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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks
- Thread starter ZealousD
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Freeze Mage will be back. It's a hard counter to certain meta states, and that's good.
I have no idea why people hate Freeze Mage so much. It's not easy to play well, and it's important that some deck like Freeze Mage exists, because you always want counter decks to certain meta states. It's a way of keeping the meta honest; you want deck archetypes that exist to punish people for playing flavor of the month, whether that flavor be zoo type swarm decks or super late game control decks or anything else in between.
I would put the "Blame" for that on Secret Paladin. It wrecks the new Shaman decks, in my experience.
I think Totem Shaman is fine, in the same way Freeze Mage is fine -- Freeze Mage totally stinks in a meta where Control Warrior is the number 1 deck on the ladder, but is excellent when the meta shifts in a different direction.
I'm not convinced yet at all that Shaman is dead, but if it is, it's because as good as the Shaman cards are in TGT, secret Paladin is better, it hard counters Shaman, and it happens to be all over the ladder right now.
Think about this. If you are using a 2 mana Mage spell to kill a 1 mana creature then that means they got value out of their Zombie Chow as they traded up with it (1 mana card for a 2 mana card) on top of that if you used Frostbolt/Flamecannon to kill Chow on turn 2 then on their turn they have board advantage as they can play a 2 drop while you have nothing on the board and have to react to it.
And yeah dust your spares.
Super Nothing
Member
I think some of those new cards didn't really pan out as well as people expected. Totem Golem is a really strong play on turn 2, but it messes up your turn 3, which loses you a lot of the tempo that it created. Tuskar Totemic is pretty bad unless he pulls Totem Golem. Manatide is pretty good too, but everything else is pretty much crap. And it really sucks that you can't play Totem Golem followed by Tuskar without the coin. Totem Carver is pretty much just a more specific Frostwolf Warlord, which nobody plays. I think Frostwolf Warlord might even be better in Shaman because it synergizes with Haunted Creeper and Feral Spirit. Thunder Bluff Valiant is strong, but you have to be winning already for it to really do anything. If you're behind, it's just a 3/6 for 5. The Mistcaller wowed a lot of people when it was revealed, but it's really slow. It takes a long time to pay off and creates an immediate loss in tempo.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Shaman just has a crappy set of favorable matchups.
If the meta is ever dominated by Druids, control Warriors and Handlocks then maybe Shaman can be a factor again.
Being demolished by Paladin and Priest and Patron being favorable against Shaman doesn't help matters. Not to mention Shaman still isn't great against Hunter either.
If the meta is ever dominated by Druids, control Warriors and Handlocks then maybe Shaman can be a factor again.
Being demolished by Paladin and Priest and Patron being favorable against Shaman doesn't help matters. Not to mention Shaman still isn't great against Hunter either.
Yeah, that's basically what I'm saying. I think there are a host of decent/fine decks out there that simply cycle in and out of the meta depending on what's happening.
Some decks have favorable matchups against control warrior, but not against patron. Or they're good against Zoo lock but not against handlock, and so forth. So, depending on the meta, they cycle over time between a tier 3 or tier 2 deck. Still, it would be good for Shaman to one day have one of those tier 1 decks -- that is, they are so good that they define the meta, rather than be a reaction to it. It's been a long time since either priest or shaman has had one of those decks.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Yeah that's true and it's exactly what I was thinking after I posted. There's been several times when I've used a spell early on only to wish I had it later.
I really like Mage but I wanna build a decent deck with every class and I'm having a shitload of trouble with Druid. I guess I've been spoiled by the "bail me out" cards that the Mage has (flamestrike and polymorph), that I'm struggling hard with the Druid. Does he have anything like that?
Yeah, that's what the mass disenchant button is for, it disenchants all your third+ copies of your cards.
It's because every time they try a new Shaman thing it doesn't mesh with the old thing.
Expert Set: Overload Shaman
GvG: Mech Shaman
TGT: Totem Shaman
Like, where's the overlap? Earth Shock. Rockbiter. Flametongue Totem. Hex. Fire Elemental. But these are just random tools. You can't make a deck out of random tools unless they're really good random tools (they're not).
Every other class established an identity early on and are always just waiting for new stuff to make these identities viable again. Or, like Mech Mage, they got a new identity that pushed hard during one of the subthemes. Or, like Patron/Miracle, some sleeper combo was discovered or the missing piece was created.
Shaman gets none of that. They get their identity halfheatedly reinvented with every major set and then forgotten by the next one.
Expert Set: Overload Shaman
GvG: Mech Shaman
TGT: Totem Shaman
Like, where's the overlap? Earth Shock. Rockbiter. Flametongue Totem. Hex. Fire Elemental. But these are just random tools. You can't make a deck out of random tools unless they're really good random tools (they're not).
Every other class established an identity early on and are always just waiting for new stuff to make these identities viable again. Or, like Mech Mage, they got a new identity that pushed hard during one of the subthemes. Or, like Patron/Miracle, some sleeper combo was discovered or the missing piece was created.
Shaman gets none of that. They get their identity halfheatedly reinvented with every major set and then forgotten by the next one.
Not really but that's the point, it's a different class. Druid specializes in something called Ramp plays as well as choose mechanic. Ramp allows Druids to play cards earlier than normal. You have probably seen it already, they can play a 4 drop on turn 1 with Innervate which is extremely powerful. Wild Growth accelerates their mana curve allowing them to play big creatures earlier. The problem is that while they can gain huge tempo swing early on with their ramp plays, it's hard for them to regain lost tempo because their board clears aren't as good (they have Swipe, Starfall but nothing like Flamestrike) and their removals aren't great (Mulch is probably the best to be honest).
Choose mechanic gives Druids flexibility in their plays. Keeper of the Groves, Ancient of Lore, Druid of the Claw, Living Roots, Wrath etc. That's also something they have over Mages.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Officerrob
Banned
I'm really not a fan of secret Paladin. I hold my own in the match-up, but I groan when I realize my opponent is playing it.
Oh Jesus I forgot Neptulon.
What a kick in the nuts that must've been for Shaman players.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Neptulon is now much stronger thanks to that super strong Paladin card
You stuck with the default character.
Go play a different class and then yes.
Leveling up a F2P paladin prior to TGT was very brutal.
This so much. Guess it would be too strong with Siltfin or something.
Super Nothing
Member
A random chance at pulling a really strong card isn't as good as building a deck with a really strong card in it. And I think Paladins still got the better deal, because Siltfin Spiritwalker is absolutely terrible to play from hand, but it's amazing to pull it for free from Murloc Knight.
Here's how they could make Neptulon worthwhile.
Neptulon
7
Battlecry: Put up to 4 Murlocs from your deck onto the battlefield.
Overload (3)
7/7
I think I really nailed the design of this card. Hire me, Blizzard.
Neptulon
7
Battlecry: Put up to 4 Murlocs from your deck onto the battlefield.
Overload (3)
7/7
I think I really nailed the design of this card. Hire me, Blizzard.
I was such a player. I still remember all the people here telling me it was going to be fine. Ugh.
Might as well rename it to Balanculon.
Or put 4 Murloc Knights onto the board.
Then you can truly witness the power of pure water.
Okay, I laughed.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Since we are talking about Neptulon, what do people think about Al'Akir? I run him in my Totem deck but he just seems like a worse version of Grom. He also has taunt for seemingly no reason.
Haunted
Member
That's much too strong, you should nerf the stats to a 6/7.
It's a strong combo with Rockbiter.
I think they just wanted to put every available mechanic in the game (at the time) on him. iirc the lore reason given was that he's got an inferiority complex and is always compensating or something. :lol
so obviously we're just waiting for the inevitable buff with deathrattle, joust and inspire mechanics on him
Phawx
Member
His value is supposed to come from reincarnate, rockbiter and flametongue
The ideal situation is dropping Rockbiter axes on him, but he can also be used to clear if you need to.
He's not astonishing, but Shaman does have a variety of ways to buff his damage up, and you can drop him if you need to save yourself without them.
Like Neptulon, he's emblematic of Shaman's jack of all trades, master of none status.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I find by turn 8 I have either used my Rockbiters or they are at the bottom of my deck. He does combo well with Flametongue.
The Mango Sentinel
Member
Oh ok cool. Didn't know that.
Yeah it was funny putting an Ironbark Protector out on like turn 4 or something...until I got polymorphed on their turn
Then I'm like "oh, so that's how it feels..."
CelticKnight
Member
I'm a bit of a Heathstone noob, my only previous experience was the "3 wins for a Hearthsteed" cross promo thingy, but I've been dabbling a bit more with it recently as I've grown a bit bored with WoW.
Is it a game newcomers can get into with out feling like they're on a hiding to nothing? I've played mostly with the Paladin deck, and I've won a couple (lost far more, which I totally expect to happen as I pay my dues) but the last game I played I got ROFLstomped by a Rusian who after turn 4 was playing legendary card after legendary card.
I haven't got the gold to play Arena, and I don't fancy dropping real money on the game until I'm more familar with way it plays, so I'm stuck playing with people who have their own cards. Is it safe to assume everyone elses deck is the metaphorical footlong, while I'm stuck with a one-inch punch? Or can late comers still get into the game?
Is it a game newcomers can get into with out feling like they're on a hiding to nothing? I've played mostly with the Paladin deck, and I've won a couple (lost far more, which I totally expect to happen as I pay my dues) but the last game I played I got ROFLstomped by a Rusian who after turn 4 was playing legendary card after legendary card.
I haven't got the gold to play Arena, and I don't fancy dropping real money on the game until I'm more familar with way it plays, so I'm stuck playing with people who have their own cards. Is it safe to assume everyone elses deck is the metaphorical footlong, while I'm stuck with a one-inch punch? Or can late comers still get into the game?
That's pretty mild tbh, 4 mana play and you get to keep a sheepYeah it was funny putting an Ironbark Protector out on like turn 4 or something...until I got polymorphed on their turn
Then I'm like "oh, so that's how it feels..."
BGH there would have given them a 3-for-1 AND board control
That's why Druid's preferred early Innervate plays are Shade on 1, Shredder on 2 or Druid of the Claw on 3. You use only two cards for a tempo boost that's still huge but much harder to answer than a BGH target.
Later on you'll also realize that no one runs Polymorph outside of the trench. Too slow against real decks.
Fragamemnon
Member
He just costs too much and while great with other cards you often need to use those other cards just to maintain board control in an era of infinitely sticky creatures. I think he's a big dumb derpy card that doesn't do nearly enough for eight mana in the kind of super grindy games that shaman decks find themselves in.
edit: Neptulon feels great in the midrange shaman lists though. You get a decent chance of snagging a Murloc Knight now and the extra gas means that you can continue to grind out games, which is literally the only thing shaman is good at.
Try to get the easy starting gold by getting all your heroes to level 10 and also beating every class's expert deck. This should help you get familiar while also building up gold. You can also get 10 gold per 3 wins in Play mode which should also help you learn the ropes. Just play ranked for these, you can't lose stars until you pass rank 20 anyway so just use it as a learning experience. Play arena once you're comfortable with the mechanics since it's a pretty big gold sink and you don't want to be dropping 150 gold to go 0-3
It's been fantastic so far, it has won me many games.
Fine I guess? Haven't seen any Tempo Mage lists lately. Still see that card online being used and it does work. Most pro players still prefer Freeze Mage if they want to play Mage in a tournament.
I think Spellslinger has been seeing quite a bit of use as well which is unfortunate because it is yet another RNG card being thrown in the mix for Tempo Mage along with Effigy.
BlackBuzzard
Banned
Im on a hot streak with my Dragon Mage, went from 13 to 8 losing no matches. Hope i can get to 5 again.
I've run into a fair number of tempo mages and I haven't seen it used since the first week.
NamikazeBurst
Member
Burgle gave me something really nice, but I didn't even need it.
The guy also had three Murloc Knights and a Piloted Shredder, but I still won.
The guy also had three Murloc Knights and a Piloted Shredder, but I still won.
Ranked is awful at the moment even with better cards, it should ease up as the month goes on though.
However the Tavern Brawl mode should help you and it opens tomorrow if you have a hero at rank 20, some weeks they give you pre-made/random decks which in theory gives everybody the same chance, it's good for quests (and learning) and at the moment you get free pack from it.
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