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Hearthstone |OT4| The warsong has ended, please patron other decks

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M

Mugaaz

Member
Dreavus said:
I've been playing a ton of arena the past few days, and above 6 wins I am very very likely to fight Paladins and Mages. Rarely, it's another class with a crazy deck (eg. a warlock that hits the jackpot on demons), but otherwise those two seem to dominate. That's got say something right? Is it just accepted by Blizzard that those classes do better in the arena setting?

It's not that I'm mad about losing to them, and it's not like I don't play those classes myself, but it seems weird that it's just an accepted fact that those classes dominate. We joke about it on here all the time. I love trying to draft rogue and priest decks, but I admit that my very best results come out of Mage and Paladin.

What would they need to do to arena to even out class distribution? Maybe the coming set will shake things up a bit but I'm not entirely convinced a whole lot will change.
Click to expand...

They would need to rebalanced the game for arena, which would mean changing the rarity of certain classes cards. They don't want to do this. It's not going to happen.
 
C

crazygambit

Member
Dreavus said:
I've been playing a ton of arena the past few days, and above 6 wins I am very very likely to fight Paladins and Mages. Rarely, it's another class with a crazy deck (eg. a warlock that hits the jackpot on demons), but otherwise those two seem to dominate. That's got say something right? Is it just accepted by Blizzard that those classes do better in the arena setting?

It's not that I'm mad about losing to them, and it's not like I don't play those classes myself, but it seems weird that it's just an accepted fact that those classes dominate. We joke about it on here all the time. I love trying to draft rogue and priest decks, but I admit that my very best results come out of Mage and Paladin.

What would they need to do to arena to even out class distribution? Maybe the coming set will shake things up a bit but I'm not entirely convinced a whole lot will change.
Click to expand...

My best result (9 wins) was with a Rogue deck 3 Zombie Chows for early board control and 2 Fel Reavers to kill. A few Saps and it worked beautifully. My worst was with a mage when I kept getting either removal or terrible minions (so I picked removal) and had such a fucked up curve and not enough to stuff to actually play (and not enough removal to be an actual control deck). 2 wins. My average is 5 wins after 5 tries at Arena. I think I'm gonna save the rest of my money for expansion packs. Should have about a little over 2k by the time it releases. The cards have been so bad I decided I'm not gonna preorder.
 
M

Malice215

Member
jgminto said:
The revealed card is odd because you'll likely never have spell damage out for Turn 3 since you usually want it to actually effect a spell, so outside of Shaman perhaps, it wouldn't see the advantage until around Turn 5/6 for most decks.
Click to expand...

I hope Blizzard has some more minions with spell damage coming out, preferably in the 1 or 2 drop range. Otherwise that card will get as much use as Volcanic Drake does.
 
O

Opiate

Member
My girlfriend has some really, really rough luck with packs. She's opened a pack of 20 and got... no legendaries, and ONE epic. She's really sad. What are the odds of 19/20 packs being nothing but basic packs?
 
O

Opiate

Member
Fuzzery said:
Just opened 25 packs yesterday from saved up arena runs, boom, foe reaper, and trade prince.
Click to expand...

You apparently stole all my girlfriends luck. Your 25 packs were so good that you didn't even mention the epics. My girlfriend is clutching on to her one epic because it's all she got .
 
B

BananasWithGuns

Member
Yeah I'd be pretty upset then if that were me.

Makes me wonder how many people will open up their 50 packs on launch day and just end up feeling overwhelming disappointment.

Edit: On the bright side though, we're getting ever closer to that Blood Knight meta.
 
F

Fuzzery

Member
Opiate said:
You apparently stole all my girlfriends luck. Your 25 packs were so good that you didn't even mention the epics. My girlfriend is clutching on to her one epic because it's all she got .
Click to expand...

Heh, blame my friend instead. I have her open my packs because i'm way too lazy to open them myself.

I've realized its about 1500 dust for 25 packs
 
K

Kotetsu534

Member
Fuzzery said:
Apparently warlock is actually pretty good in arena, maybe I just have to get better at drafting it
Click to expand...

It is. IGB and Voidcaller are two of the best class 3- and 4-drops around. Flame Imp is a superb 1-drop. Dread Infernal, Doomguard and Floating Watcher are all good bigger drops which can potentially pop out of a Voidcaller (or another Voidcaller, or a good smaller Demon like IGB). You usually have at least some good cheap removal options like Darkbomb, Imp-losion or Soulfire, and possibly a Siphon Soul to deal with a big threat. Bane of Doom can win games on its own. It can swing back the board with Hellfire or Shadowflame, but obviously you don't want to rely on them. Generally you want to try to curve low, take hold of the board early and apply a lot of pressure with the reach threat of Power Overwhelming and Soulfire, getting maximum value our of Life Tap, but if your draft takes you in a slower direction, that's fine, especially if you can draft healing (Mistress of Pain is a good class 2-drop in this regard, along with the standard Farseer and Healbot).
 
T

Totakeke

Member
Opiate said:
You apparently stole all my girlfriends luck. Your 25 packs were so good that you didn't even mention the epics. My girlfriend is clutching on to her one epic because it's all she got .
Click to expand...

Pretty sure I have more than 100 packs opened so far from just playing arena on and off and I only have 2 legendaries, Cenarius and Malygos.

Part of the reason I can't be bothered to play Hearthstone constructed seriously.
 
A

Arol

Member
Raxus said:
Casual can be even worse past a certain point. Stick to ranked. You can still build a respectable deck with limited legendaries. A couple of the best legendaries are in the adventures.
Click to expand...

Yeah, casual doesn't seem much better.

I will say something about the game though, its crazy how a good opening hand can just completely win you the game.
 
U

Ultrabum

Member
Arol said:
Yeah, casual doesn't seem much better.

I will say something about the game though, its crazy how a good opening hand can just completely win you the game.
Click to expand...

I would go as far to say, at the level of an individual game, RNG determines the winner 90% of the time. Most games you win, you have a great opening hand, or your opponent draws nothing and vice versa.

That is if both people are using net decks and don't make giant misplays. But most of the net decks play pretty simple, other than patron.
 
J

johnsmith

remember me
Reynad just banned a sub for asking about his magic ban, and then banned another 100+ people for talking about it in chat. But he's winning with zoo so he kept playing.
 
G

Gotchaye

Member
Ultrabum said:
I would go as far to say, at the level of an individual game, RNG determines the winner 90% of the time. Most games you win, you have a great opening hand, or your opponent draws nothing and vice versa.

That is if both people are using net decks and don't make giant misplays. But most of the net decks play pretty simple, other than patron.
Click to expand...

I think it depends a lot on what all you're including in "RNG". Like, the deck matchup is also a huge deal. Some decks have a big advantage over some other decks. I'm not very familiar with the Constructed meta anymore but used to be that, while Freeze Mage was a competitive deck, the also-viable Control Warrior would eat its lunch almost every time. Randomness barely entered into it once the match actually started.

It's probably also worth noting that the ranking system obviously tries to group players by skill, and to some extent the meta tends to favor decks that have a reasonable chance against all other popular decks (you're a good deck if you on-average stack up well against other decks weighted by popularity), but nothing is guaranteeing that players in a particular game are similarly lucky. We expect that games between players of similar skill using decks that are reasonably well-matched will come down to luck, right? Because what else could they come down to?

For a match between two random players rather than between players who have similar deck-picking and deck-piloting track records, I'd say that deck selection is a huge factor in doing well in particular games (and like I said earlier deck selection can be decisive even for people with similar overall records), followed by knowing how to play your deck and knowing what to expect from the other deck (once past a very low level of skill). Then in-game RNG.

Arena really shows this off, right? It actually matches you against a wide variety of players and gives you a better idea of what sorts of skill disparities exist, though presumably Arena is biased towards better players. Often it's clear that one deck just has a huge advantage, and it's apparent to everyone who plays much of the format that being good at drafting is a huge part of doing well (though obviously there's luck involved in what you're offered for a particular run). Especially at low win counts you run into a bunch of people who are clearly just not very good at piloting their decks, and even if their decks are better or they get luckier they still tend to lose.
 
U

Ultrabum

Member
Gotchaye said:
I think it depends a lot on what all you're including in "RNG". Like, the deck matchup is also a huge deal. Some decks have a big advantage over some other decks. I'm not very familiar with the Constructed meta anymore but used to be that, while Freeze Mage was a competitive deck, the also-viable Control Warrior would eat its lunch almost every time. Randomness barely entered into it once the match actually started.

It's probably also worth noting that the ranking system obviously tries to group players by skill, and to some extent the meta tends to favor decks that have a reasonable chance against all other popular decks (you're a good deck if you on-average stack up well against other decks weighted by popularity), but nothing is guaranteeing that players in a particular game are similarly lucky. We expect that games between players of similar skill using decks that are reasonably well-matched will come down to luck, right? Because what else could they come down to?

I'd say that deck selection is a huge factor in doing well in particular games, followed by knowing how to play your deck and knowing what to expect from the other deck (once past a very low level of skill). Then in-game RNG.
Click to expand...

I would absolutely consider the deck you get matched up vs RNG.

I agree with you, it probably should be this way.
I just miss the feeling out being able to outplay people with the more control type decks, now I play mostly aggro and even when I play control it's usually vs aggro and it's literally did they curve out? Did I draw war axe / removal?
 
S

slayn

needs to show more effort.
I feel like the better my arena deck, the more the matchmaking screws me. I had a mediocre shaman deck that went 12-1. Nothing notable about it. No fire elementals. No legendaries. Ok curve.

Feeling good about shaman I went for round 2 and I drafted the craziest shaman arena deck I've ever seen. Dr Boom, Chromaggus, Fire Ele, earth elemental, doom hammer, fireguard, flametongue, zombie chow and a near perfect curve.

Then immediately lost to double flamestrike mage with onyxia and perfect answers to every minion. I got every one of those cards I listed against the mage and got *destroyed*
 
F

Frenden

Banned
Ultrabum said:
I would absolutely consider the deck you get matched up vs RNG.

I agree with you, it probably should be this way.
I just miss the feeling out being able to outplay people with the more control type decks, now I play mostly aggro and even when I play control it's usually vs aggro and it's literally did they curve out? Did I draw war axe / removal?
Click to expand...

I enjoy a more control oriented meta for sure. They're going to have to slow the game down a heap for any of this inspire stuff that's been revealed to be viable. I don't see how they can do that.

The revealed low cost, sticky legendaries at 3 mana help, I guess?
 
Z

ZealousD

Makes world leading predictions like "The sun will rise tomorrow"
As far as I am concerned they have to be very careful about slowing the game down because fatigue decks are just as cancerous (if not worse) than the aggro decks.

The meta isn't even THAT fast right now. Face Hunter has fallen in popularity and Shockadin is really the only hyper-fast deck that is arguably top tier.
 
O

Opiate

Member
Frenden said:
I enjoy a more control oriented meta for sure. They're going to have to slow the game down a heap for any of this inspire stuff that's been revealed to be viable. I don't see how they can do that.

The revealed low cost, sticky legendaries at 3 mana help, I guess?
Click to expand...

I'm not sure they do. The most obvious application for them is in aggro paladin ,which runs might/kings.

Control Priest can possibly use them, but handlock cannot, control warrior cannot, grinder/control mage cannot.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
Ultrabum said:
I would absolutely consider the deck you get matched up vs RNG.

I agree with you, it probably should be this way.
I just miss the feeling out being able to outplay people with the more control type decks
Click to expand...

I think it cuts both ways. Having a great opening hand to stabilize is cool and all but that doesn't mean you're outplaying the aggro opponent per se, right? I know what you mean, I only play control decks (Warrior & Priest) and there's no better feeling than running your opponent into a steady stream of 2-for-1s, but that doesn't make me a more skilled player when I pull that off necessarily.

In fact the single biggest skill I think in Hearthstone is knowing when to give up greedy plays for "feels-bad" tempo plays, and when to give up tempo plays for "feels-bad" slow patient plays, sometimes that even means Hero Power-> Pass Turn. Everyone can make the "feels-good" plays like casting Holy Nova into a board of X/2s.

I find the Control Warrior mirror very fascinating for this reason since there's almost zero RNG involved, and outside of a few tech choices like Gorehowl/Harrison, the matchup is very even... and a huge amount of patience involved. Both of you will see your whole deck and you can almost plan out every play to the last detail if you're good enough.
 
F

Frenden

Banned
Opiate said:
I'm not sure they do. The most obvious application for them is in aggro paladin ,which runs might/kings.

Control Priest can possibly use them, but handlock cannot, control warrior cannot, grinder/control mage cannot.
Click to expand...

Yeah. Wishful thinking on my part.
 
O

Opiate

Member
FieryBalrog said:
Don't you mean out-RNG people with your good opening hand that allows you to stabilize?

If opening hand-RNG was everything, then just because the game goes longer doesn't mean that goes away.

Basically, it cuts both ways.
Click to expand...

I think that was his point. The situation where this is not the case is when both decks are slow, and as such a poor opening hand can be overcome more readily. The idea is that skill shows when the opening draw is less relevant, and that's most true when the game goes on for longer periods of time and more choices need to be made.
 
F

FieryBalrog

Member
Opiate said:
I think that was his point. The situation where this is not the case is when both decks are slow, and as such a poor opening hand can be overcome more readily. The idea is that skill shows when the opening draw is less relevant, and that's most true when the game goes on for longer periods of time and more choices need to be made.
Click to expand...

I kind of edited as I went along, and I sort of agree (which I gave in the Control Warrior mirror example). But actually, aggro vs. aggro takes a good amount of skill as well because it takes a good understanding of the same principles:
In fact the single biggest skill I think in Hearthstone is knowing when to give up greedy plays for "feels-bad" tempo plays, and when to give up tempo plays for "feels-bad" slow patient plays
Click to expand...

I enjoy control mirrors because they are hard and very mentally taxing, and I enjoy control vs. aggro because the decision making is much more straightforward and the game is more relaxing.

Control vs. Aggro is just fun and I don't understand people who don't like it.
 
C

crazygambit

Member
I managed to reach rank 17. The same Face Hunter I used to get to rank 9 just a few days ago was getting destroyed at rank 19 (by Mech Mage among other things). I switched to Mid Range Hunter and I'm doing a little better. I'd never played before and I think I like it better than Face Hunter, except against Patron. Those damn 1/2 spiders that spawn other 1/1 spiders cost me the game. With Face Hunter Patron is kinda easy IMO.

So I'll see how it goes. Also Dr. Boom is insane. In no other deck had I put it to such good use.
 
R

Raxus

Member
Most switched to midrange hunter since it is more consistent and isn't countered so hard by the current patron warrior build.
 
V

ViviOggi

Member
crazygambit said:
I managed to reach rank 17. The same Face Hunter I used to get to rank 9 just a few days ago was getting destroyed at rank 19 (by Mech Mage among other things). I switched to Mid Range Hunter and I'm doing a little better. I'd never played before and I think I like it better than Face Hunter, except against Patron. Those damn 1/2 spiders that spawn other 1/1 spiders cost me the game. With Face Hunter Patron is kinda easy IMO.

So I'll see how it goes. Also Dr. Boom is insane. In no other deck had I put it to such good use.
Click to expand...
No offense but until rank 5 most Patron players you run into are plain garbage, so that's not a good basis for talking about matchups. In fact the Face Hunter matchup massively favors Patron as they have a massive number of ways to deal witn the 1 health cancer, and one good Armorsmith combo puts them out of reach for multiple turns and Explosive Trap synergizes with basically half their deck. On the other hand the deck struggles with an average Midrange Hunter curve like Juggler -> Companion -> Houndmaster on anything -> Loatheb/Companion, add a Highmane on 6 and it's almost game over right there. The Warrior will take huge face damage fro their weapons but only clear one minion at a time, most of which have 3+ health so whirlwinds do very little. Freezing is a pain in the ass as well.
 
M

manhack

Member
Yeah, I've been playing a ton of Patron the last few days and Patron is really good against face hunter. I do not like going against mid-range at all.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
It's going to suck when Grim Patron will get nerfed because that deck is actually doing a pretty good job at keeping the really annoying aggro decks at bay.

When you think about it... the Grim Patron deck is naturally filled with a ton of anti aggro cards.

Whirlwind
Cruel Taskmaster
Armorsmith
Unstable Ghoul
Grim Patron (sort of, it acts like a board clear)
Death's Bite


It would be cool if we had a neutral card that worked like Armorsmith only it gave health instead of armor.



I find the Control Warrior mirror very fascinating for this reason since there's almost zero RNG involved, and outside of a few tech choices like Gorehowl/Harrison, the matchup is very even... and a huge amount of patience involved. Both of you will see your whole deck and you can almost plan out every play to the last detail if you're good enough.
Click to expand...
Well I would hope a Control Warrior mirror is even in the match up.

Best mirror match is Handlock IMO. Control Warrior mirror is second for me.
 
M

Majine

Banned
I don't know what people say when they say Patron warrior is "cheap". I might be biased cause I played it a lot, but I find there is plenty of strategy involved and it's quite fun.
 
D

Dahbomb

Member
Majine said:
I don't know what people say when they say Patron warrior is "cheap". I might be biased cause I played it a lot, but I find there is plenty of strategy involved and it's quite fun.
Click to expand...
It's because you die to 20+ damage with no board on your side that people find cheap.

I also find the deck to be very interesting even if its really damn powerful.
 
J

johnsmith

remember me
Majine said:
I don't know what people say when they say Patron warrior is "cheap". I might be biased cause I played it a lot, but I find there is plenty of strategy involved and it's quite fun.
Click to expand...

It's too good, too consistent, with no real hard counter. If all you care about is winning there's no reason to play any other deck. It's been the top meta deck for over 3 months straight, which hasn't happened before.

Many of the cards provide double duty, as both removal vs aggro, and to enable huge combos vs slower decks. If you get emperor out you basically win, it will more than likely enable a huge berserker combo even on a completely empty board.
 
PAULINK

PAULINK

I microwave steaks.
Man, past two warlock vs hunter matches have sucked, just when I think I have enough health to survive, two kill commands in his fucking hand.. I already have two healing cards, sacrificial pact and antique healbot, but these past two matches have made me consider another healer. It sucks because I play a good game but can't keep up with the hunter's pace... any suggestions? I play a control type warlock with lord J and malganis. I try not to tap against hunters and I still get fucked.
 
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