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Hearthstone |OT5| Corrupted Deeprock Salt
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
I expect some change. I do wonder if he'll get Starving Warsong'd into the ground though, ala:
(5) 2/2, Deal 3 damage to an opponent's minion with 7 or more attack.
Blargh. I don't know how to fix BGH, but I don't like what it is now.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Real Money Auction House still stings.
Would this DK be as overpowered as the launch Wrath DK
Professor Lich
Member
Shout out to Mobius in Kripp's latest video!
Also, going to repost since it was the last post on the last page.
Also, going to repost since it was the last post on the last page.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Hehe, I did say virtually (because I had that in mind, lol) : p
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
It's not. If you keep blaming the wrong thing, you'll never improve. Seems like the other person just played better, no shame in admitting that. : )
StrategyFan
Member
bgh is annoying, but it's not like playing huge things is a necessary part of any class
black knight is worse. fortunately you don't need taunt with the current card pool, so you can still beat aggro decks without randomly losing to players who run it. but that might not always be the case
reno hard counters certain types of decks. it doesn't matter how rare it is. it would behave the same way if it was basic.
there's usually no outplaying involved. it's possible that you lost before the game began because reno was in your opponent's top 12 cards. if reno was in the bottom 12 cards then your opponent could have lost before the game began.
even if you had a deck that could do burst damage, it's usually not possible to know that you should save it after seeing the first few plays. if it's not legend rank, you shouldn't even assume that the presence of some suboptimal cards means it's a reno deck.
0-cost molten giants is the opposite story. that's possible to detect and possible to play around for most decks. people can improve their builds and improve their play after those kinds of losses
black knight is worse. fortunately you don't need taunt with the current card pool, so you can still beat aggro decks without randomly losing to players who run it. but that might not always be the case
reno hard counters certain types of decks. it doesn't matter how rare it is. it would behave the same way if it was basic.
there's usually no outplaying involved. it's possible that you lost before the game began because reno was in your opponent's top 12 cards. if reno was in the bottom 12 cards then your opponent could have lost before the game began.
even if you had a deck that could do burst damage, it's usually not possible to know that you should save it after seeing the first few plays. if it's not legend rank, you shouldn't even assume that the presence of some suboptimal cards means it's a reno deck.
0-cost molten giants is the opposite story. that's possible to detect and possible to play around for most decks. people can improve their builds and improve their play after those kinds of losses
What is actually wrong with BGH? What cards would people play that they don't play now if it wasn't in the game?
phoenix296
Member
Raise Ally - Spell
Raises a dead minion as a ghoul with freeze and explodes on death for 10 hero damage. (Works in Arena!)
Corpse Explosion - Spell
If a friendly minion has died this game, deal it's health + damage stats to all enemies.
Death Strike - Spell
Deal x amount of damage and heal 3x the amount of damage dealt.
buff cards
giants
big dragons
ironbarks
any future big cards
I tried a buff paladin deck, but bgh and gvg extreme aggression cards kept that from working at all.
Karsticles
Member
How about you respond to my points:
1) Name a basic deck that has won a championship.
2) Why did my win rate go up massively after I bought Naxx?
If you can't prove both of those points, this game has a pay 2 win model. End of argument.
Oh yeah. Blizzard has serious problems admitting when mistakes are made. WoW was so frustrating for so many years.
of course with millions of people playing their games, the vast vast vast amount of complaints are not going to be valid, That does not negate what I said regarding instances where the community has been right about something and blizzard stubbornly sticks to their guns, and then, eventually, have to fix the issue. I mean from stuff like the AH in Diablo 3, priest shields and absorbs in general in wow, altering damage of marines, every man for themselves and the effect that would have on pvp, when they are outright told, when people have data to back it up, there have been many times where blizzard just wants to be stubborn.
That depends on what you mean by Basic. Championships have been won by pretty cheap decks, usually including no more than 1 Legendary (which is easy get within a few weeks of play, maybe even less).
Like Artosis won Blizzcon with an Aggro Warrior deck that only had Grommash. Most other cards were commons. I am sure a lot of Hunter decks have won stuff and those are pretty cheap too.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Naw, not good enough. Needs a weapon that never breaks with 4 attack and every time you hit something it heals you for 4. Then it's a real Death Knight.
Like with most F2P games, time and money are exchangeable resources.
Karsticles
Member
Basic = Basic Cards only.
And I'm fine with that. I don't mind the game's model. I just wish he were honest about it instead of being PR.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Probably never then? Just like how nobody has ever won a Street Fighter tournament after playing as Ryu for only 10 hours. You underestimate how far smart plays can take you.
Professor Lich
Member
I highly doubt Chmpocalypse is posting here for PR reasons.
Also, quite a few other posters here have said before that Hearthstone really isn't P2W as it might feel. I'm in the same mindset that it has to really suck as a new player when others have cards that can be strickly better than what they have access to but playing and crafting your deck properly goes a really long way.
As well, there's a good chance that things go back to how they were two years ago, where playing smarter will get you more out of your cards over just having newer ones(or at least we can hope).
Also, quite a few other posters here have said before that Hearthstone really isn't P2W as it might feel. I'm in the same mindset that it has to really suck as a new player when others have cards that can be strickly better than what they have access to but playing and crafting your deck properly goes a really long way.
As well, there's a good chance that things go back to how they were two years ago, where playing smarter will get you more out of your cards over just having newer ones(or at least we can hope).
Karsticles
Member
When you keep playing Street Fighter, you're increasing your skill, you aren't gaining new powers to overwhelm people with. Silly comparison.
I didn't.
Emerson
May contain jokes =>
People make it to legend every month with base card decks.
At higher levels, yes cards matter more (though not really at the highest level since everyone has all the cards). At lower ranks, you can win with an inferior deck. This is true in every card game. You're blaming the easy factor (your deck) and failing to recognize flaws in your own play. Would you do better with better cards? Probably. But then you'd only start running into superior players with the same cards as you.
veloxStrix
Banned
You don't have to pay for cards in Hearthstone. You can earn all of them through gold and time. A patient and skilled player can get all the playable cards without too much trouble. I played all the way until GvG without buying cards and then I decided I wanted to shoot for a full gold collection. My winrate never changed because of it. Is it plausible for most people to do this? Maybe not. But it is an option.
This game is P2W to the extent that any CCG is P2W and, among its peers (MTGO, Hex, HoMMDoC) its actually fairly cheap to play.
I mean if you want a curated "buy once, play forever" experience you could play Magic Duels or Ascension instead, but this is like signing up for TERA and wondering why your experience isn't Guild Wars 2. It is just part of this genre.
I mean if you want a curated "buy once, play forever" experience you could play Magic Duels or Ascension instead, but this is like signing up for TERA and wondering why your experience isn't Guild Wars 2. It is just part of this genre.
That's a major difference here. It was very easy to get a lot of the collection pre GvG without paying.
veloxStrix
Banned
I'll agree with this. I think Standard will help with this though, especially for new players. I would argue that Karsticles didn't pay to win, he paid to save time. Ultimately he could have bought the packs with gold.
On that note, removing packs from Arena and increasing the gold prize would allow players to buy whatever packs they needed and help get closer to that pre-GvG ease of access.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Those cards already have shit stat lines, not sure how you would nerf them
WesternHeretic
Member
I don't think it's broken either but it's above average. For example Arcane Intellect is a 3 mana draw 2 cards. Lore is a 5-5 for 7 mana and draw 2 cards. Essentially giving you draw 2 cards for 2 mana so it's better than an Arcane Intellect. As far as the healing well it 5 health for 2 mana which isn't exactly broken either imo.
I see where he's coming from but his reasoning is that those cards are auto includes in Druid decks so should be nerfed..
Well so are Fiery War Axe, Frost Bolts, Northshire, Backstabs, SI7 etc. That's not really a valid enough reason to nerf those cards. Just seems like he's hopping on the Druid hate bandwagon at the moment.
Having an effect on a body is pretty strong in Hearthstone, it's why Azure Drake sees so much play too. But Ancient of Lore is like just barely above the power curve that it doesn't really make much sense to nerf it.
Same for Keeper of the Grove although arguably it has a higher versatility strength. 2 damage with a 2/4 body means it's like using Arcane Shot plus dropping a weak 3 drop so 4 mana is correct. And the silence effect makes it weaker stats wise than Spellbreaker, a NEUTRAL minion. So neither portions are over powered but together it's pretty strong.
Well so are Fiery War Axe, Frost Bolts, Northshire, Backstabs, SI7 etc. That's not really a valid enough reason to nerf those cards. Just seems like he's hopping on the Druid hate bandwagon at the moment.
Probably closer to 2.5 for the draw because 5/6 is what you expect for 5 mana. Considering it's a class card it's not that OP.
Having an effect on a body is pretty strong in Hearthstone, it's why Azure Drake sees so much play too. But Ancient of Lore is like just barely above the power curve that it doesn't really make much sense to nerf it.
Same for Keeper of the Grove although arguably it has a higher versatility strength. 2 damage with a 2/4 body means it's like using Arcane Shot plus dropping a weak 3 drop so 4 mana is correct. And the silence effect makes it weaker stats wise than Spellbreaker, a NEUTRAL minion. So neither portions are over powered but together it's pretty strong.
Their reasoning for keeping classic is to keep hearthstone's identity, these are the cards that make class identity, that's the whole point. Sure broken cards like savage roar gotta go and maybe innervate too, but I don't think they can change druid's kit too much other than that.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
Definitely not for PR. My opinions are mine alone, I just love the game. It's not p2w, and I think others far smarter than myself have already explained why quite well.
It's easy to get frustrated by losing when you're new. Happened to my roommate, who complained that every other card was OP. He, also, was wrong. Sadly he quit the game over it. I want more people playing, not less, because I think the game's rad. : D
If there's any card that should be nerfed just because it's an auto-include in every deck of that class, you should be looking at Fireball. It's the single best direct damage spell in the game and has so much versitility and power that you will never NOT run two of them in every single Mage deck from now until the end of time. It's an intentionally overpowered card and it will never, ever get pushed out of rotation for any reason.
Now I think it's okay for Mage to have a spell like that as a feature of the class but if you were really getting down to the nitty gritty about pushing out every auto-include then that card would have to come into the conversation.
Now I think it's okay for Mage to have a spell like that as a feature of the class but if you were really getting down to the nitty gritty about pushing out every auto-include then that card would have to come into the conversation.
Reno Mage though.
veloxStrix
Banned
I would argue decks already exist that don't run two. Echo Mage for a while didn't run two Fireballs. After GvG released there was a deck floating around called "Tech Mage" that didn't run Fireballs at all, favoring more of a toolbox style. That's not really the issue though.
The issue is that Druid will lose almost nothing per rotation. How many cards are outside of the basic set in Midrange? Eight? And of those cards, how many serve a purpose other than simply "play this on curve before other people"? Druid has to lose something, much like Freeze Mage has to lose something.
Finished up the solo adventures: BRM and LoE, and I thought they were quite enjoyable.
Personally, I thought BRM was harder than LoE; the Emperor and Drakkisath encounters were aggravating. Fortunately, I was able to defeat the Emperor and Moira before he had a chance to use his hero power.
Personally, I thought BRM was harder than LoE; the Emperor and Drakkisath encounters were aggravating. Fortunately, I was able to defeat the Emperor and Moira before he had a chance to use his hero power.
I guess I should have said viable Mage deck.
I understand that I'm probably being harsh to Reno Mage but I really don't think that deck is very good.
Brode doesn't like Antonidas, one way to nerf him is to nerf fireballs I guess. In the game, spell's damage and mana cost don't scale linearly except for fireball. 2 mana for 3 damage, 6 damage should cost more than 4. Pyro is 10, was 8 before nerf, 10 for 10. Maybe fireball now should cost 5.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
Mage is Mage, she should have the best spells. Although old Pyroblast was a bit strong.
Fireball costing 5 mana would basically put it in line with every other damage spell in the game. Direct damage spells should do damage equal to cost+1 to be "fair", or cost-1 if you add a cantrip. Adjusting this formula up or down a damage point usually means some kind of restriction or getting some other kind of benefit, respectively. Pyroblast and Fireball are basically the only exceptions to this rule (pyroblast going down and fireball going up).
Trigger_happy
Member
Combo is already getting nerfed, why people want to nerf all good Druid cards? It's not like he was op pre-naxx even with combo.
Karsticles
Member
I would love to see someone who made it to legend with base cards. I really don't believe you. The base cards are pretty bad. If you're including Classic, then I can believe you.
Player A and player B are both starting out.
Player A spends $100 on packs.
Player B plays with base cards.
If Player A and Player B play against one another, who is most likely to win? Isn't the answer clearly Player A?
There are a lot of things Blizzard could do to help new players ease in, but it doesn't seem like that's in the cards (haw haw).
Instead of nerfing Fireball, he could just generate a different spell.
Best direct damage spells, at least. What was old Pyro like?
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
The same but 8 mana, as was Mind Control.
Well pre-Naxx was a different era from from now most notably because of stuff like pre-nerf Leeroy and Gadgetan existing. Also like 10 different versions of UTH and Starving Buzzards in there.
There's no doubt in most people's minds that Druid would be god tier in his own bracket (tier 0 deck) if combo wasn't nerfed.
People used to make Legend with Basic cards though not since GvG released. Power creep was too much.
Though almost no one has JUST Basic cards. Starting out you get like 7 packs really quickly and it's just enough to get you some essential commons.
As far as your player A vs player B example goes, if the skill level is the same then yes the player who spent more is more likely to win however if there's a difference in skill/knowledge then the results will be different.
Player B can spend $100 but can make a very bad deck of cards he thinks are good aren't (because he got them from a pack). Where as Player A will try to make the best deck possible from his limited resources, research for it and then optimize his play with it.
That's why you were able to get out of rank 20 immediately and go into rank 15 within a few days of playing. I can tell you right now that the people you were facing either were playing for years or had dumped hundreds of dollars into their decks yet still were getting wrecked.
To put it plainly... a person who has a 30 Legendary decks will lose to someone who has a basic deck.
Karsticles
Member
Wow. Mind Control already makes me salty enough.
Question: can you use Silence to break Mind Control?
veloxStrix
Banned
I watched Amaz get beaten by a basic mage deck once while playing , so I can say the answer is likely A, but not always. Is Player B looking up decks online or building decks himself? Did he open up Deathwing and then decide to run it in his Zoo deck as a secret wombo combo? Is he playing Aggro Priest?
The "P2W" aspect of the game is exacerbated by the fact that 99% of players just look up a list online when they go to play.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
8 mana Mind Control was the only thing that made Priest competitive back in the day.
Also Rank 25 to Legend in 5 days on a new account spending $0.
Also Rank 25 to Legend in 5 days on a new account spending $0.