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[inky]

I think we've had this discussion a million times... CCGs are always going to be P2W to some degree, if we adhere strictly to the concept; not everyone is going to have access to all the cards at all times. It will never happen. That said, knowing how the game works and learning from your and your opponent's mistakes is always going to be the best advantage you can have.

As far as P2W goes, Hearthstone manages to make it irrelevant pretty fast. Like, almost to the point where one would actually be tempted to claim it is not. Once the knowledge of the game sets in, that hurdle is cleared and you can move past it and be efficient about your deck building.

The thing we need to keep in mind (and we really should, because it keeps happening in the thread) is that there is an undeniable initial perception of disadvantage from some (new?) players. And it's very real to Blizzard too, so much they have acknowledged it and are taking steps to turn that idea of "a mountain to climb" into a little hill because it scares new people off rather fast. But new players also have to understand that what bothers people is this idea that it hinges on legendary cards being the culprit.

It used to be the case that cheap decks with no legendaries did the job pretty easily. There might still be some decks out there that work like that, but most have some legendaries in it. But I think the misconception that "more legendaries = more win" hasn't changed much and that is, well, a misconception that new players take some time to overcome. Experienced players might not be able to get legend with only basic cards anymore (dat power creep), but give a good player a new, clean account and he will definitely get to legend way before a brand new player with everything unlocked right off the bat.

tl;dr : strictly speaking Hearthstone and other CCGs can be considered P2W. Knowledge of the game will get you farther than money ever will, and you in fact, don't need to spend any money to be good at the game, as long as you are learning from your mistakes. Legendaries are powerful, but are not the end all be all in the game. They can be countered, beaten and guess what? Play a bit, learn the game and you'll make the most out of a very few.

 

[FormallyFamicom]

Also Rank 25 to Legend in 5 days on a new account spending $0.

Not bad for 24 months ago.

 

[Cat Party]

buff cards
giants
big dragons
ironbarks

any future big cards

I tried a buff paladin deck, but bgh and gvg extreme aggression cards kept that from working at all.

Giants get tons of play. The only big dragon above 6 attack that's good that isn't played is Nef. Agree on ironbarks, though ancient of war is a better card anyway and does get played.

 

[Karsticles]

8 mana Mind Control was the only thing that made Priest competitive back in the day.

Also Rank 25 to Legend in 5 days on a new account spending $0.

2 years ago doesn't seem relevant for today. Was Naxx even out yet?

I watched Amaz get beaten by a basic mage deck once while playing , so I can say the answer is likely A, but not always. Is Player B looking up decks online or building decks himself? Did he open up Deathwing and then decide to run it in his Zoo deck as a secret wombo combo? Is he playing Aggro Priest?

The "P2W" aspect of the game is exacerbated by the fact that 99% of players just look up a list online when they go to play.

That's the only concession that I want, that some cards are better than others, and thus, if you have a large collection, you have a significant advantage over people who have a starting-size collection. As a result, "play smarter" isn't always a potential path to victory.

Giants get tons of play. The only big dragon above 6 attack that's good that isn't played is Nef. Agree on ironbarks, though ancient of war is a better card anyway and does get played.

Chromaggon (sp?) gets play?

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

2 years ago doesn't seem relevant for today. Was Naxx even out yet?
.

Well the game isn't even two years old. Talking about when it actually came out and not beta obviously

Chromaggon (sp?) gets play?

Chromaggus. And he sees some play, but not a lot.

 

[Frenden]

I want Standard to hit. I have a hard time remaining interested in this lame duck period between reveal and release.

 

[veloxStrix]

I want Standard to hit. I have a hard time remaining interested in this lame duck period between reveal and release.

I've just been playing Arena to rake up the sweet, sweet dust from the nerfs.

Spoiler

I have 37,000 dust I do not need dust. I am greedy. :c

 

[Emerson]

I want Standard to hit. I have a hard time remaining interested in this lame duck period between reveal and release.

Pretty much what Ben Brode was talking about when he said they don't want to announce stuff too early any more.

Weirdly enough though it seems like they probably announced this quite a bit in advance. I can't see it hitting any time particularly soon.

 

[inky]

I play Nefarian in my Dragon Warrior dammit, it's not a dead card to me!

That's the only concession that I want, that some cards are better than others, and thus, if you have a large collection, you have a significant advantage over people who have a starting-size collection. As a result, "play smarter" isn't always a potential path to victory.

Some cards are better than others, absolutely, but I don't think that alone is a significant advantage considering a) your deck is only 30 cards at a time, b) every card and strategy has counters. "Play smarter" is almost always the best potential path to victory, but there will be cases when whatever you do, you won't be able to win. No amount of crafting other cards or legendaries you own is going to change that. Even switching to a different deck or mixing up strategies (subbing some cards for others) won't guarantee you'll do better.

That is when the knowledge of the meta-game, your good matchups, probability outcomes, etc. will come into play.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Giants get tons of play. The only big dragon above 6 attack that's good that isn't played is Nef. Agree on ironbarks, though ancient of war is a better card anyway and does get played.

The fact is that everything that has 7+ attack is automatically worse because BGH exists, mediocre cards become bad cards, good cards become okay cards, etc.

 

[Karsticles]

Well the game isn't even two years old. Talking about when it actually came out and not beta obviously



Chromaggus. And he sees some play, but not a lot.

I don't doubt that you could do it at launch, but as a new player, there are a lot of "must have" cards that are off the table without a lot of time and effort. Now, I'm totally willing to put that time and effort in, but I'm also willing to play ~30-50 matches a day for the 100g. I'm not most people.

I want Standard to hit. I have a hard time remaining interested in this lame duck period between reveal and release.

Grind up for the next set man! I was talking about this with Dahbomb, but I'm mixed between doing one of three things with my current gold (~640):
1) Buy a Naxx wing to enjoy now and disenchant later. I've been hyped about a Dreadsteed deck for the two weeks I've been playing, and I still kind of want to make it happen.

2) Buy lots of Classic packs, since I don't own 99% of the cards.

3) Buy BRM, since it will be relevant in Standard.

I've just been playing Arena to rake up the sweet, sweet dust from the nerfs.

Spoiler

I have 37,000 dust I do not need dust. I am greedy. :c

I have 180 dust, and less than 10 cards that aren't in my current deck. :-/

I play Nefarian in my Dragon Warrior dammit, it's not a dead card to me!



Some cards are better than others, absolutely, but I don't think that alone is a significant advantage considering a) your deck is only 30 cards at a time, b) every card and strategy has counters. "Play smarter" is almost always the best potential path to victory, but there will be cases when whatever you do, you won't be able to win. No amount of crafting other cards or legendaries you own is going to change that.

That is when the knowledge of the meta-game, your good matchups, probability outcomes, etc. will come into play.

Things like counters and matchups are only relevant factors when you have the cards to play multiple competent decks, haha. I have ONE decent deck, and that's it.

 

[inky]

Things like counters and matchups are only relevant factors when you have the cards to play multiple competent decks, haha. I have ONE decent deck, and that's it.

That's not entirely true. Even with only one deck knowing your good and bad matchups is an advantage, especially if your opponent doesn't know he's favored. One of the hardest things in Hearthstone is knowing at any time if you are winning, losing and by how much. It's not a simple thing, and it will win you or lose you games.

Generally speaking you only need one good deck if your goal is to rank up and get to Legend. You really don't need more IF you know your deck, the meta and how to win >50% of the time with it. Nothing guarantees that changing your one deck for another deck will make things easier because you won't always be able to anticipate your opponent and everything can be countered.

When they idea of disparity holds true is when you have, say, only Dark Iron Dwarves as 4 drops instead of Piloted Shredders, or only one copy of Mysterious Challenger whe your deck demands 2. That's a situation where your lack of cards puts you at a real disadvantage. If you have one complete deck with a sound strategy then you have what everyone else has: good matchups and bad matchups.

 

[irfaanator]

trump hit legend or high rank with his free to play priest deck

 

[veloxStrix]

Edit: Wrong thread entirely. It's late here.

 

[Frenden]

I've just been playing Arena to rake up the sweet, sweet dust from the nerfs.

Spoiler

I have 37,000 dust I do not need dust. I am greedy. :c

I thought I was rich at ~11K dust!

Pretty much what Ben Brode was talking about when he said they don't want to announce stuff too early any more.

Weirdly enough though it seems like they probably announced this quite a bit in advance. I can't see it hitting any time particularly soon.

That statement of Brode's made me wonder if the new stuff is dropping sooner than many are guessing. That would be nice.

I don't doubt that you could do it at launch, but as a new player, there are a lot of "must have" cards that are off the table without a lot of time and effort. Now, I'm totally willing to put that time and effort in, but I'm also willing to play ~30-50 matches a day for the 100g. I'm not most people.


Grind up for the next set man!

I'm pretty flush on cards and just play enough to get easy quest gold atm. I always buy $150-ish of packs when expansions hit, so I think I should be good between the gold hoarding, my dust (11K-ish), and the cash outlay.

I'm older and played MTG and Decipher's CCGs. I spent $100s on single cards for physical CCGs way back when. I wouldn't do that now. The voluntary cost of Hearthstone feels exceedingly low comparatively.

 

[accel]

trump hit legend or high rank with his free to play priest deck

...after converting it into a dragon priest by winning tons of arenas (and spending three months, although that wasn't the only thing he was doing during these months).

I am not here to steer the debate, but it is undoubtful that while skill matters, cards matter as well and buying packs / adventures gives you cards. One may then call this "P2W" or "a degree of P2W" or "a unicorn", and he may also add "all C/TCGs are like that", etc, but the gist is this - throwing money at the game helps (up to a point). Unlike in some other games.

Grind up for the next set man! I was talking about this with Dahbomb, but I'm mixed between doing one of three things with my current gold (~640):
1) Buy a Naxx wing to enjoy now and disenchant later. I've been hyped about a Dreadsteed deck for the two weeks I've been playing, and I still kind of want to make it happen.

2) Buy lots of Classic packs, since I don't own 99% of the cards.

3) Buy BRM, since it will be relevant in Standard.

I'd do 4) buy a Naxx wing so that if you later decide to go for a full collection, you can buy the remaining wings with gold.

 

[call_kotaku]

in my experience paying for stuff besides adventures is an extremely ineffective use of money, and only because adventures cost a ridiculous amount of gold. Generally people don't pay for stuff in Hearthstone to get some sort of advantage, they do it because of compulsive addictive reasons.

After some practice it's fairly easy to earn enough gold from quests to run an arena once a day, even if you aren't a 7+ average player who can do endless arenas, since 4+ is often enough. Doing well in the game isn't really about deckbuilding for 99% of people, it's about understanding how every other common deck works and how the matchup works vs your deck, and you get none of that from buying stuff. You're not likely to get the cards you need to build a competitive deck from buying packs, you're just collecting crafting dust. The people who binge buy those things just like opening packs.

 

[Tubie]

I just read the news about all the changes coming, and I think this is a great approach they're taking.

The game needed a major shake up like this for sure.

 

[Karsticles]

That's not entirely true. Even with only one deck knowing your good and bad matchups is an advantage, especially if your opponent doesn't know he's favored. One of the hardest things in Hearthstone is knowing at any time if you are winning, losing and by how much. It's not a simple thing, and it will win you or lose you games.

Generally speaking you only need one good deck if your goal is to rank up and get to Legend. You really don't need more IF you know your deck, the meta and how to win >50% of the time with it. Nothing guarantees that changing your one deck for another deck will make things easier because you won't always be able to anticipate your opponent and everything can be countered.

When they idea of disparity holds true is when you have, say, only Dark Iron Dwarves as 4 drops instead of Piloted Shredders, or only one copy of Mysterious Challenger whe your deck demands 2. That's a situation where your lack of cards puts you at a real disadvantage. If you have one complete deck with a sound strategy then you have what everyone else has: good matchups and bad matchups.

I feel you. That said, I don't have one complete deck. I have a bare minimum half-assed deck that lets me get by. I'm not even particularly passionate about it, and my "real" deck I want to play looks pretty damn different.

I thought I was rich at ~11K dust!



That statement of Brode's made me wonder if the new stuff is dropping sooner than many are guessing. That would be nice.




I'm pretty flush on cards and just play enough to get easy quest gold atm. I always buy $150-ish of packs when expansions hit, so I think I should be good between the gold hoarding, my dust (11K-ish), and the cash outlay.

I'm older and played MTG and Decipher's CCGs. I spent $100s on single cards for physical CCGs way back when. I wouldn't do that now. The voluntary cost of Hearthstone feels exceedingly low comparatively.

I know what you mean. I own all of the old dual lands just for flexibility. That said, I'm also married, and my wife would not be cool with me spending $150 on this game, haha.

...after converting it into a dragon priest by winning tons of arenas (and spending three months, although that wasn't the only thing he was doing during these months).

I am not here to steer the debate, but it is undoubtful that while skill matters, cards matter as well and buying packs / adventures gives you cards. One may then call this "P2W" or "a degree of P2W" or "a unicorn", and he may also add "all C/TCGs are like that", etc, but the gist is this - throwing money at the game helps (up to a point). Unlike in some other games.



I'd do 4) buy a Naxx wing so that if you later decide to go for a full collection, you can buy the remaining wings with gold.

I have 1 wing already, but I appreciate the advice.

 

[bord]

I'm with Kripp. I think Ancient of Lore should be nerfed.

Every class has a few cards that define it, and for Druid I think those cards are Wild Growth and Innervate. The idea behind these cards is pretty simple; you're sacrificing card advantage for tempo. But with Ancient of Lore, you'll eventually get that card advantage back and then some. I think the card just runs counter to what Druid should be.

As long as Ancient of Lore exists, Druids will never have to worry too much about card advantage at all. They have these tools to outpace their opponents in the early stages of a match, and then they have an easy and reliable way to refill their hand in the later stages. I question whether Druid should have access to a card like this at all.

I mean the card is absurd value, so much so that it's virtually impossible to out-value a Midrange Druid. Think about it's bad match-ups: Tempo Mage, Mech Mage, Aggro Druid, Zoo, Secret Paladin. If you want to beat Midrange Druid on a somewhat consistent basis, the only way is to out-tempo it; value is never a reasonable option against Midrange Druid.

Maybe just nerfing FoN+SR will be enough, but if Ancient of Lore goes with it, I won't mind at all.

 

[Karsticles]

I'm with Kripp. I think Ancient of Lore should be nerfed.

Every class has a few cards that define it, and for Druid I think those cards are Wild Growth and Innervate. The idea behind these cards is pretty simple; you're sacrificing card advantage for tempo. But with Ancient of Lore, you'll eventually get that card advantage back and then some. I think the card just runs counter to what Druid should be.

As long as Ancient of Lore exists, Druids will never have to worry too much about card advantage at all. They have these tools to outpace their opponents in the early stages of a match, and then they have an easy and reliable way to refill their hand in the later stages. I question whether Druid should have access to a card like this at all.

I mean the card is absurd value, so much so that it's virtually impossible to out-value a Midrange Druid. Think about it's bad match-ups: Tempo Mage, Mech Mage, Aggro Druid, Zoo, Secret Paladin. If you want to beat Midrange Druid on a somewhat consistent basis, the only way is to out-tempo it; value is never a reasonable option against Midrange Druid.

Maybe just nerfing FoN+SR will be enough, but if Ancient of Lore goes with it, I won't mind at all.

I'd be curious to see which cards you think define each class.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Seriously, how in the FUCK did Anyfin Can Happen even make it out of testing?

It's the biggest example of Blizzard's incompetence. Talk for months about how they want to be careful with charge and then print that garbage. Whoever is responsible for that shouldn't have a job.

 

[BigJonsson]

Wizards of the Coast should have gifted me a Black Lotus back when I first played Magic, so not fair that some people had it and I didn't

/s

 

[MetroidPrimeRib]

I'd be curious to see which cards you think define each class.

Druid - Mana manipulation cards like Wild Growth, Darnassus Aspirant and Innervate. Choose One mechanic in Ancient of Lore and Keeper of the Grove. FoN and Savage Roar.

Mage - Wide variety of spells and board clears/stalls. Ability to freeze from Snowchugger, Frostbolt, Frost Nova. Useful secrets like Ice Block and Mirror Entity.

Warlock - Self harm or detrimental effects for extra value like Doomguard, Felguard, Pit Lord and Life Tap itself. Demon synergy from Mal'ganis, Demonfire, Demonwrath.

Warrior - Weapons like Death's Bite and Fiery War Axe for board control and trading without losing minions. Armor abilities like Shield Block, Shield Slam and Shieldmaiden allow Warrior to build up massive defenses and not worry about taking tons of damage. Enrage effects and effects procced on damage from Frothing Berserker, Grom and Patron.

Shaman - lol. Overload and RNG I guess? Shaman's first legendary was Al'akir who just has everything and manages to still be mediocre. Yep, that's Shaman.

Priest - Control the board through healing and spells and high health minions. Great board clears. Unique mechanics via Auchenai and Shadowform. Stealing. Buffs like Velen's Chosen and Power Word: Shield. Effective removal in Shadow Word Pain and Death, Holy Nova, Lightbomb, Excavated Evil, and Auchenai Soulpriest + Circle of Healing.

Paladin - Having bullshit class cards to play on curve for maximum value. Minibot. Mysterious Challenger. Muster for Battle. Tirion. Somewhere in between Priest and Warrior. Buffs from Blessing of Kings, Blessing of Might, Seal of Champions enable faster aggro decks.

Hunter - Superb aggro capabilities and beast synergy. Savannah Highmane, Unleash the Hounds, Kill Command. Secrets like Snake Trap, Explosive Trap and Bear Trap.

Rogue - Combo. Unleash devastating effects via massive card draw and the strength of cards building off of each other. Weapons. Preparation makes Rogue what it is.

 

[irfaanator]

...after converting it into a dragon priest by winning tons of arenas (and spending three months, although that wasn't the only thing he was doing during these months).

I am not here to steer the debate, but it is undoubtful that while skill matters, cards matter as well and buying packs / adventures gives you cards. One may then call this "P2W" or "a degree of P2W" or "a unicorn", and he may also add "all C/TCGs are like that", etc, but the gist is this - throwing money at the game helps (up to a point). Unlike in some other games.



I'd do 4) buy a Naxx wing so that if you later decide to go for a full collection, you can buy the remaining wings with gold.

yea I do remember he supplied the gold with various high win arena runs, which does kind of skew it away from "new" players. The series is still a nice introduction in playing with minimum amt of cards. The main thing I have with coming in new is that most of the quests are geared towards people who have the cards and knowledge of the game b/c most of them you have to win

 

[bord]

I'd be curious to see which cards you think define each class.

Maybe cards is the wrong way of saying it. Perhaps I should've said concepts or mechanics.

Mage is about spells obviously so Frostbolt, Fireball, Sorcerer's Apprentice.
Druid is about mana acceleration (and to me at least, this is at the cost of card advantage): Wild growth, Innervate
Paladin is about board control and buffs/debuffs: Equality, Aldor Peacekeeper, Blessing of Kings
Warrior has armor and weapons: Fiery War Axe, Shield Block, Shield Slam
Shaman has the elements: Lightning storm, Fire elemental, Earth shock **EDIT: I forgot about totems: Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic, Vital
Priest is obviously healing and, to a lesser extent, the "shadow" stuff: Circle of healing, Mindblast
Rogue has weapons and combos: Edwin, Prep, Deadly poison
Warlock is about sacrificing stuff so discarding stuff like Doomguard, or self-damaging like Flame Imp.
Hunter has beasts and traps: Animal companion, Savannah Highmane, Secrets.

**EDIT: For shamans, Totems and Overload as well

Seriously, how in the FUCK did Anyfin Can Happen even make it out of testing?

It's the biggest example of Blizzard's incompetence. Talk for months about how they want to be careful with charge and then print that garbage. Whoever is responsible for that shouldn't have a job.

I think this is along the lines of what I was talking about.

Paladin should not have access to this amount of burst. Actually no class should have this much burst, but especially not Paladin. I don't know what they were thinking. Anyfin Can Happen is definitely one of the most baffling things they've done.

 

[Karsticles]

Something I find weird about this game: why do they keep pushing Murlocs to be a Shaman thing? Demons make sense for Warlocks, soldiers make sense for Paladins...but Shaman don't really hang out with Murlocs, unless I've missed something in recent WoW lore. I know Murlocs are shamanistic, but it's not quite the same as a real affiliation.

Maybe cards is the wrong way of saying it. Perhaps I should've said concepts or mechanics.

Mage is about spells obviously so Frostbolt, Fireball, Sorcerer's Apprentice.
Druid is about mana acceleration (and to me at least, this is at the cost of card advantage): Wild growth, Innervate
Paladin is about board control and buffs/debuffs: Equality, Aldor Peacekeeper, Blessing of Kings
Warrior has armor and weapons: Fiery War Axe, Shield Block, Shield Slam
Shaman has the elements: Lightning storm, Fire elemental, Earth shock
Priest is obviously healing and, to a lesser extent, the "shadow" stuff: Circle of healing, Mindblast
Rogue has weapons and combos: Edwin, Prep, Deadly poison
Warlock is about sacrificing stuff so discarding stuff like Doomguard, or self-damaging like Flame Imp.
Hunter has beasts and traps: Animal companion, Savannah Highmane, Secrets.

Druid - Mana manipulation cards like Wild Growth, Darnassus Aspirant and Innervate. Choose One mechanic in Ancient of Lore and Keeper of the Grove. FoN and Savage Roar.

Mage - Wide variety of spells and board clears/stalls. Ability to freeze from Snowchugger, Frostbolt, Frost Nova. Useful secrets like Ice Block and Mirror Entity.

Warlock - Self harm or detrimental effects for extra value like Doomguard, Felguard, Pit Lord and Life Tap itself. Demon synergy from Mal'ganis, Demonfire, Demonwrath.

Warrior - Weapons like Death's Bite and Fiery War Axe for board control and trading without losing minions. Armor abilities like Shield Block, Shield Slam and Shieldmaiden allow Warrior to build up massive defenses and not worry about taking tons of damage. Enrage effects and effects procced on damage from Frothing Berserker, Grom and Patron.

Shaman - lol. Overload and RNG I guess? Shaman's first legendary was Al'akir who just has everything and manages to still be mediocre. Yep, that's Shaman.

Priest - Control the board through healing and spells and high health minions. Great board clears. Unique mechanics via Auchenai and Shadowform. Stealing.

Paladin - Having bullshit class cards to play on curve for maximum value. Minibot. Mysterious Challenger. Muster for Battle. Tirion. Somewhere in between Priest and Warrior.

Hunter - Superb aggro capabilities and beast synergy. Savannah Highmane, Unleash the Hounds, Kill Command. Secrets like Snake Trap, Explosive Trap and Bear Trap.

Rogue - Combo. Unleash devastating effects via massive card draw and the strength of cards building off of each other. Weapons. Preparation makes Rogue what it is.

Thank you for taking the time to write this up.

 

[veloxStrix]

Shaman - lol. Overload and RNG I guess? Shaman's first legendary was Al'akir who just has everything and manages to still be mediocre. Yep, that's Shaman.

◥█̆◤ TOTEMIC MIGHT ◥█̆◤

Midrange Shaman was the first deck I took to Legend, pre-Naxx. :c It was such a hard counter to Handlock.

 

[Tarazet]

I'm with Kripp. I think Ancient of Lore should be nerfed.

Every class has a few cards that define it, and for Druid I think those cards are Wild Growth and Innervate. The idea behind these cards is pretty simple; you're sacrificing card advantage for tempo. But with Ancient of Lore, you'll eventually get that card advantage back and then some. I think the card just runs counter to what Druid should be.

As long as Ancient of Lore exists, Druids will never have to worry too much about card advantage at all. They have these tools to outpace their opponents in the early stages of a match, and then they have an easy and reliable way to refill their hand in the later stages. I question whether Druid should have access to a card like this at all.

I mean the card is absurd value, so much so that it's virtually impossible to out-value a Midrange Druid. Think about it's bad match-ups: Tempo Mage, Mech Mage, Aggro Druid, Zoo, Secret Paladin. If you want to beat Midrange Druid on a somewhat consistent basis, the only way is to out-tempo it; value is never a reasonable option against Midrange Druid.

Even with Ancient of Lore you can end up top-decking if the game gets dragged out past 10 turns. That's why the deck runs with so much other card draw, besides its reliance on The Combo. For example, if Wild Growth didn't cycle itself out when played with 10 mana, it would be so much worse and might not even get played at all.

If I were to redesign it, I would simply make it heal the hero for 5 and draw one card. That reduces its power without making it unplayable.

 

[Shiver]

Seriously, how in the FUCK did Anyfin Can Happen even make it out of testing?

It's the biggest example of Blizzard's incompetence. Talk for months about how they want to be careful with charge and then print that garbage. Whoever is responsible for that shouldn't have a job.

they thought it would be used in decks that used all the murlocs, not just the good ones.

blizzard just isn't as good att optimizing decks as the community.

 

[Pooya]

murloc paladin will be standard's combo druid. It's already pretty good. I face so many these days.

 

[accel]

Maybe cards is the wrong way of saying it. Perhaps I should've said concepts or mechanics.

Mage is about spells obviously so Frostbolt, Fireball, Sorcerer's Apprentice.
Druid is about mana acceleration (and to me at least, this is at the cost of card advantage): Wild growth, Innervate
Paladin is about board control and buffs/debuffs: Equality, Aldor Peacekeeper, Blessing of Kings
Warrior has armor and weapons: Fiery War Axe, Shield Block, Shield Slam
Shaman has the elements: Lightning storm, Fire elemental, Earth shock **EDIT: I forgot about totems: Totem Golem, Tuskarr Totemic, Vital
Priest is obviously healing and, to a lesser extent, the "shadow" stuff: Circle of healing, Mindblast
Rogue has weapons and combos: Edwin, Prep, Deadly poison
Warlock is about sacrificing stuff so discarding stuff like Doomguard, or self-damaging like Flame Imp.
Hunter has beasts and traps: Animal companion, Savannah Highmane, Secrets.

**EDIT: For shamans, Totems and Overload as well

The above is how I think about it as well, not cards, but rather mechanics. Shamans could have been clearer: just totems and elements, with 'elements' meaning both the general themes of lightning / fire / etc *and* lots of random built-in, big hit ranges and general unpredictability are crucial.

I'd add to priest: mind vision / mind control / shadow madness / etc, ie, winning with cards / things that belong to your opponent.

PS: And to druid: with mana acceleration, druid is also obviously about big bodies - ancients, trees, etc. That's why you accelerate.

 

[BananasWithGuns]

Well, went from rank 17 to 10 with Elise Warrior today. I'll take it.

 

[accel]

The main thing I have with coming in new is that most of the quests are geared towards people who have the cards and knowledge of the game b/c most of them you have to win

BTW, I see where you are coming from, and as a player with very few cards the idea of changing "win 3 games as X" to just "play 3 games as X" is definitely mouthwatering, but even then I am not sure this is a good idea. I mean, if most games (at least in casual) turn into forfeits on step one / two, because one of the players is just filling his daily, it won't be good. I think I'd rather suffer trying to win without cards.

Well, went from rank 17 to 10 with Elise Warrior today. I'll take it.

That's big distance, congrats. How much time did that take - 3-4 hours?

 

[peakish]

I would love to see someone who made it to legend with base cards. I really don't believe you. The base cards are pretty bad. If you're including Classic, then I can believe you.

Trump recently made it from rank 25 to legend in three months on an F2P account. Obviously not only using basic cards though, since you accumulate card packs just by playing. Paid for some of Blackrock Mountain using accumulated gold, but before any of that got to rank 3 in the first month.

Series here, end of first season here and reaching legend here.

Of course there (at least to me) seems to be truth in that a game like this is P2W in the sense that you will get access to more and better cards much faster, but eh. Either way I'll probably be facing off against opponents of roughly similar skill (or difficulty, rather, if they do have better cards which I don't take too seriously).

 

[BananasWithGuns]

That's big distance, congrats. How much time did that take - 3-4 hours?

Probably around that yeah, played most of the evening.

 

[Dragner]

Nerfing ancient of lore is beyond stupid. Yes, the card is really powerful but you cant nerf every single powerful card of the game. Whats left for druid if it loses combo lore and keeper?. Big stupid minions? Good luck winning with that with poor removal and no card advantage.

The fact that kripps suggest a lore nerf and not a divine favor nerf tells me that he doesnt know shit about card design. I hope Blizzard dont listen to him because between this and his obsession on buffing bad cards...

 

[irfaanator]

BTW, I see where you are coming from, and as a player with very few cards the idea of changing "win 3 games as X" to just "play 3 games as X" is definitely mouthwatering, but even then I am not sure this is a good idea. I mean, if most games (at least in casual) turn into forfeits on step one / two, because one of the players is just filling his daily, it won't be good. I think I'd rather suffer trying to win without cards.



That's big distance, congrats. How much time did that take - 3-4 hours?

Didn't think about it like that but yea can see how it games the system. Duelyst has the play X games with this race, but I don't know how they get around that.

 

[Gentle Rodriguez]

Didn't think about it like that but yea can see how it games the system. Duelyst has the play X games with this race, but I don't know how they get around that.

You can have it only count games in which you play more than X turns, but even then nothing's stopping someone from just conceding after that.

Or it could require you to win at least one of those game to finish the quest.

 

[Trigger_happy]

The fact that kripps suggest a lore nerf and not a divine favor nerf tells me that he doesnt know shit about card design. I hope Blizzard dont listen to him because between this and his obsession on buffing bad cards...

Kripp isn't even constructed player, i don't know why his opinion carries much weight.

 

[MMaRsu]

If there's any card that should be nerfed just because it's an auto-include in every deck of that class, you should be looking at Fireball. It's the single best direct damage spell in the game and has so much versitility and power that you will never NOT run two of them in every single Mage deck from now until the end of time. It's an intentionally overpowered card and it will never, ever get pushed out of rotation for any reason.

Now I think it's okay for Mage to have a spell like that as a feature of the class but if you were really getting down to the nitty gritty about pushing out every auto-include then that card would have to come into the conversation.

I think Fireball should be 5 mana at the least

 

[Haunted]

Has Brian Kibler Gaming's Brian "Brian Kibler" Kibler said something about this announcement on the Brian Kibler Gaming website?


Now there's a guy with years of (card) game design experience.

 

[bjaelke]

Has Brian Kibler Gaming's Brian "Brian Kibler" Kibler said something about this announcement on the Brian Kibler Gaming website?


Now there's a guy with years of (card) game design experience.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUupMooIJYo

Kibler on the new format. Blizzard apparently gathered a lot of community guys back in September to talk about the issue.

Not if it's coming at the start of the next season. They still have to reveal the new expansion and the nerfed basic cards.

.

 

[Dragner]

Yeah everyone should listen to kibler. Other streamers are good players but he is a player with 20 years of experience on TCGs, Magic TG Hall of Famer and designer of many great games (WoW TCG, Ascension, Solforge,...). He probably knows better than Krypp what this game needs. His articles on his website are also a good read.

 

[Xanathus]

Man people really don't respect Fel Reaver.

 

[Acidote]

I should start playing arena to craft the classic legendaries I should have... I'm expecting a Black Knight comeback among others I don't have yet.

 

[ViviOggi]

I'd love to see forgotten OGs like TBK make a comeback

"He needed precisely that card to destroy my taunt and develop a 4/5"

 

[Dragner]

I'd love to see forgotten OGs like TBK make a comeback

"He needed precisely that card to destroy my taunt and develop a 4/5"

4/5s became irrelevant after loatheb and belcher. I hope they have room in the new meta. I would love to see Black Knight and Cairne again.

 

[Zoggy]

i'm tired of being so out of the loop.

what the hell is a kappa?

 

[Dragner]

i'm tired of being so out of the loop.

what the hell is a kappa?

Is a twitch tv emote if you type Kappa in chat a grey face appears. Is used for irony mostly.