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[Dahbomb]

Kripp's pre review of the nerf:

Ancient of Lore: RIP in peace

Force of Nature: RIP in peace though new card is balanced but balanced may not be enough for constructed play.

Keeper of the Grove: Huge nerf, probably should've been 2/3. May still see play though.

Blade Flurry: Rest in pepperonis, absolutely gutted

Owl: Whatever

BGH: Balanced now, still usable.

Hunter's Mark: This card was broken in Control Hunter but since no one played it no one cared. With Silence gone this would've been go to card for Hunters so they had to nerf it.

Knife Juggler: Worse but still pretty good.

Leper Gnome: RIP in peace. Could've been 1/2 instead.

Arcane Golem: REST IN PEPPERONIS, BIGGEST NERF OF THE SET!

Mountain Giant: Should've been 23 mana, probably over nerfed.

Master of Disguise: Didn't see play before, now will never see play.

 

[Papercuts]

Looking at the damage now, I'm getting 9,480 dust. Master of Disguise alone is getting me 2600, best thing that card has ever done.

 

[Nirolak]

So, honest question.

After the beta nerfs, but before Naxxramas, how reliably could Freeze Mage dig up and play Ice Block without Mad Scientist?

I never encountered enough of them in that era to get a sense of that.

 

[Tarazet]

So, honest question.

After the beta nerfs, but before Naxxramas, how reliably could Freeze Mage dig up and play Ice Block without Mad Scientist?

I never encountered enough of them in that era to get a sense of that.

The list used to look like this: http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/58909-otter-pops

You can still recognize the shell, but it was an extremely difficult deck to play and if you didn't draw your cycles or had to burn damage early, there was no way to recover. Mad Scientist and Thaurissan brought the skill cap way down and the average results way up.

 

[thepotatoman]

This alone should ring a warning bell. When nerfing a single card has such a profound effect on the class, then that class probably has problems. I suppose you could still try tempo / aggro (minus the burst from Blade Fury), or some Raptor Rogue with Huckster, Xaril, and the new 5-cost epic...and maybe the owl "nerf" will support it, but man. Leaper Gnome nerf also affects the more aggro-based Raptor deck. No egg, as you said. No creeper. Just...Huckster, Loot Hoarder, and Harvest Golem? Otherwise you're waiting for what...Twilight Summoner, Sylvanas, Tomb Pillager, or Xaril? Hmmm

Well, I guess Spawn of N'Zoth and Infested Tauren look good to raptor too.

Thing is that currently Raptor is mostly about the god curve of egg into raptor into argus, and it's pretty bad if you don't draw Raptor earily.

All current decent death rattles seem to be 3 mana or higher, throwing that entire curve off by 1, which hurts a lot. So your best case scenario isn't that great, and in the likely event you don't draw raptor early, you're deck kinda sucks. Basically the definition of high risk little reward.

The problem with tempo or aggro is rogue just doesn't have the damage to do 30 damage before running out of cards. Your minions are pretty much required to do a ton of repeat damage, but that's definitely not easy to do even with blade flurry.

At least that's with the currently announced cards. Lets just say that expectations are super high going into tomorrows card dump.

 

[ZealousD]

Everybody should play Rogue in this Taven Brawl. The giant Van Cleefs are amazing.

 

[toddhunter]

So, honest question.

After the beta nerfs, but before Naxxramas, how reliably could Freeze Mage dig up and play Ice Block without Mad Scientist?

I never encountered enough of them in that era to get a sense of that.

It was less reliable but card draw wasn't the big problem, having mana to play everything was.

Emperor still fixes that and in return no healbots, loetheb or sticky minions.

 

[StrategyFan]

saw the writing on the wall a year ago and stopped spending money on the game or playing it much

now i don't even care about the next expansion.

it was a fun game before the power creep turned it into curvestone. there weren't a lot of good multiplayer strategy games to play, so i got top 100 several times.

but they broke the #1 rule to keep turn-based games fair: counterplay needs to be more cost-effective than whatever it's supposed to answer

the funny thing is the classes i like to play just get stronger post-patch so i shouldn't even be mad, but oh well

 

[TheSadRanger]

lol, saw this on hearthstones reddit earlier

 

[partyphone]

So, honest question.

After the beta nerfs, but before Naxxramas, how reliably could Freeze Mage dig up and play Ice Block without Mad Scientist?

I never encountered enough of them in that era to get a sense of that.

i'm a little hazy on this but i think there were two phases of nerfs? first was making all the AoE freeze spells cost 1 more mana. but that wasn't such a big hit because pyroblast cost 8 mana. and since there was no loatheb, healbot or kezan it was pretty easy to stall out the game and go ham. being able to pyroblast/frost bolt the turn after you alex was pretty broken. hell, even the tempo mage decks ran at least one pyroblaset. and card draw was never a problem. i remember losing games because i overdrew and burned something important.


edit: damn. people bitch about power creep but all the stuff that got nerfed i beta. argent commander was 4/3, defias was 2/3, 8 mana pyro, 8 mana mind control, dark iron buff was permanant, argus was a 3/3, novice engineer was 1/2, shatter sun cleric was 3/3, sylvanas was 5 mana, unleash used to give beasts charge and +1 i think, probably a lot i'm missing. point is they're getting a lot better at balance even though they still have a long way to go.

 

[partyphone]

Everybody should play Rogue in this Taven Brawl. The giant Van Cleefs are amazing.

hunter and picking nothing but spells is hilarious. you eventually get a big lock and load turn.

 

[KuroNeeko]

Hunter's Mark: This card was broken in Control Hunter but since no one played it no one cared. With Silence gone this would've been go to card for Hunters so they had to nerf it.

And this is what is puzzling. Why are they so afraid of encouraging a new style of play? It's not like Hunter has a lot of consistent, targeted removal. Is Hunter's Mark (a card that can't really do anything on it's own) really that bad?

Spoiler

Hunter's Mark / Dreadscale WAS awesome. Guess they didn't want C'thun getting bodied by a 1/1 hound)

 

[Trigger_happy]

watching strifecro priest vs freeze mage. The mage stayed alive for a few turns with 3 health, and strifecro was at 30, and then the burn happen starting with alex and ending with a dead alex and as much healing as strifecro could find only to take the burn to the face from 20.

Totally balanced and did not need a single nerf to fucking card

Priest usually gets shat on by all combo decks...

 

[Haly]

Just saw the changes.

LMAO GOOD LUCK ROGUE PLAYERS I'M PREEMPTIVELY OUT

 

[thepotatoman]

So, honest question.

After the beta nerfs, but before Naxxramas, how reliably could Freeze Mage dig up and play Ice Block without Mad Scientist?

I never encountered enough of them in that era to get a sense of that.

I didn't play this back then, but don't you currently usually want to wait until at least turn 9ish for them to proc your block anyway? That's a good amount of draws to have to get the one card.

Getting both Ice Block and Ice Barrier is quite a bit harder though.

 

[fertygo]

Hunter mark not even as good as equality that can ripple to most efficient board clear in the game

 

[partyphone]

And this is what is puzzling. Why are they so afraid of encouraging a new style of play? It's not like Hunter has a lot of consistent, targeted removal. Is Hunter's Mark (a card that can't really do anything on it's own) really that bad?

Spoiler

Hunter's Mark / Dreadscale WAS awesome. Guess they didn't want C'thun getting bodied by a 1/1 hound)

it cost 1 mana isn't a complete death sentence for the card. it just won't be in every deck.

and judging from all the hunter cards we've seen so far they really, really want people to play midrange. like super badly. doubt it will work because the hunter hero power will never synergize with that.

Hunter mark not even as good as equality that can ripple to most efficient board clear in the game

equality cripples your own board and requires another card if you want a full clear. hunter usually has cheap minions out and also explosive trap. they're not really comparable 1:1. it's all situational.

 

[bronkonagurski]

Everybody should play Rogue in this Taven Brawl. The giant Van Cleefs are amazing.

Word.

 

[Vanillalite]

I feel like Knife Jug didn't get a nerf to what mattered. It wasn't the 3/2 body. It was the free dmg it did if you combo'd it with other shit.

Am I crazy here?

 

[phoenix296]

Everybody should play Rogue in this Taven Brawl. The giant Van Cleefs are amazing.

Yep. This was one of my games earlier today.

Mage had 2 iceblocks and a frost nova. I had Vancleef, got the Golden Monkey into a working Reno Jackson at 6 HP to full heal and the turn after I top deck a Captain Greenskin for lethal. One of the silliest games of Hearthstone I've played.

 

[partyphone]

I feel like Knife Jug didn't get a nerf to what mattered. It wasn't the 3/2 body. It was the free dmg it did if you combo'd it with other shit.

Am I crazy here?

the more I think about it the more I kinda like it. a 2/2 is terrible on curve and with cards like muster, implosion and haunted creeper gone and leper nerfed the juggle effect isn't going to be that great. also it means they can't print cards like muster and implosion anymore which is even more great.

but this is all contingent on what the other half of the wotog set is and how the meta shakes out. it could still very well be a problem.

 

[jgminto]

Honestly, the Blade Flurry change is such a disappointment as an on/off rogue player. It was already getting a lot worse in Standard with Oil rotating out but there still seemed to be options for use in Malygos Rogue but now it's totally useless. You can spend 7 mana to deal 3 damage to one target and then to the opponents board and that seems like the best case scenario right now. The bigger problem is that I don't understand what the objective of playing Rogue will be now. Mill and Raptor lose a board clear but they're mostly fine. What about more traditional Rogue though, what's their win condition? There's Malygos but now all of the weapon related cards are useless so that extremely limits cards like Eviscerate to burst and if you don't get that perfect Thaurissan turn, you're basically fucked. There's the Cold Blood/Charge combo but that's already in a sorry state sooo what is the MO of Rogue now outside of a few gimmicks?

 

[squidyj]

I feel like Knife Jug didn't get a nerf to what mattered. It wasn't the 3/2 body. It was the free dmg it did if you combo'd it with other shit.

Am I crazy here?

yes. ignore the rest of the internet.

 

[partyphone]

yeah there has to be something great left in wotog or rogue is as dead as shaman was pre-totem golem and tunnel trog.

 

[bronkonagurski]

I feel like Knife Jug didn't get a nerf to what mattered. It wasn't the 3/2 body. It was the free dmg it did if you combo'd it with other shit.

Am I crazy here?

True but the loss of Muster & Implosion for standard play was kind of nerfing that aspect to some degree to begin with. I think it would have been hit much harder otherwise.

 

[Sheroking]

Dusting unnecessary Naxx and GvG stuff, plus the nerfs, will yield me about 15,000 dust. I'm getting 100 WoG packs.

I should have the whole standard set. First time I'll actually have every relevant card.

 

[ricelord]

if i dust all the cards that getting nerfed i'll be getting 6360 dust. Not bad i say.

 

[irfaanator]

idk man flamewaker is pretty good in brawl. Got one on t3 and then proceeded to do 12 damage to the face while also getting a sorcerer apprentice from another idol lol. What was funny was the first card I picked was an alexstraza, that paladin had no chance

 

[Infernodash]

Happy Nerf Day!!! Late to the party but I'm so happy!!! Priest will lose a ton of cards but I for one revel in Druid combo demise. Praise the sun shitty blade fury can't do double face damage. And best news of all, I can drop my cleric turn one against paladin and not worry about shitty knife juggler removing her once he coins it in. Also no more efficient leper trading. Blizzard you're too good to me.

I only wish they had made iron beak a hunter minion and I would have really been in heaven. Good night all!

 

[inky]

BGH: Balanced now, still usable.

Not sure if "balanced" is the term I'd use, it's overcost, but it says a lot about the game that Druid would probably still use it before its own removal options. Maybe Naturalize won't suck so much right now.

This card needed to not exist anymore.

 

[Infernodash]

I almost forgot keeper of the grove. Such a necessary nerf. I always believed it was a pain in the ass to remove cleanly because of the body. Nonetheless, 2/2 is a bit excessive for a class minion I think 2/3 would have been fair.

 

[Karsticles]

BGH needs a bigger nerf.

I almost forgot keeper of the grove. Such a necessary nerf. I always believed it was a pain in the ass to remove cleanly because of the body. Nonetheless, 2/2 is a bit excessive for a class minion I think 2/3 would have been fair.

Totally agreed. I hate Druids, but that nerf was excessive.

 

[TheSadRanger]

What's funny about the arcane golem nerf is you can summon a 4/2 for 3 mana and give a mana crystal....... When you can summon a jungle panther with stealth and the same stats for the same amount without any drawbacks lol.

 

[Cat Party]

hunter and picking nothing but spells is hilarious. you eventually get a big lock and load turn.

Lost to one who played probably 12 secrets and just a handful of minions. I was laughing by the end.

 

[Karsticles]

What's funny about the arcane golem nerf is you can summon a 4/2 for 3 mana and give a mana crystal....... When you can summon a jungle panther with stealth and the same stats for the same amount without any drawbacks lol.

It's 4/4 now, I believe. Still terrible and insta-dust in a week.

 

[irfaanator]

only time arcane golem is good is when you get it from that new mage card. Outside of that, worst 3 drop in the game.

so I'm assuming in standard malylock and malyrogue are both donezo? Lock loses darkbomb and rogue lost blade flurry

 

[fuzzyset]

This brawl is pretty fun but man the games can drag out. Just faced a Mage while Priest questing. So many Ice Blocks and Blizzards and Cones of Cold. I think they were on 2 health for like 8 turns. I had Burly Trogg on the board that eventually got buffed to like 27 attack, but it never actually attacked because it was just frozen the whole time. Eventually he ran outta Ice Blocks and I was able to finish with a Holy Nova.

 

[thepotatoman]

Not sure if "balanced" is the term I'd use, it's overcost, but it says a lot about the game that Druid would probably still use it before its own removal options. Maybe Naturalize won't suck so much right now.

This card needed to not exist anymore.

It's still potentially the best removal in the game, assuming you have a target to hit.

It still often trades 2 cards for 1, unlike execute or hunters mark that often trades 2 for 1 in the opposite direction, and it's still more tempo than Hex or Polymorph or shadow word death, trading 1 or 2 mana for a 4-2 minion and maybe one less frog or sheep on their side.

The only drawback compared to every single other removal is still that it sucks if it has no target to hit, even more now than before, but it seems more likely than ever you'll have a target to hit.

We might see a little more of a meta game tech card between BGH being popular and 7+ attack minions being popular, but we're definitely not seeing the end of BGH in any class.

 

[fertygo]

This brawl is pretty fun but man the games can drag out. Just faced a Mage while Priest questing. So many Ice Blocks and Blizzards and Cones of Cold. I think they were on 2 health for like 8 turns. I had Burly Trogg on the board that eventually got buffed to like 27 attack, but it never actually attacked because it was just frozen the whole time. Eventually he ran outta Ice Blocks and I was able to finish with a Holy Nova.

Kripp playing super control with priest and only picking spell, seem fun but each match like 30 minute lol

 

[WesternHeretic]

idk man flamewaker is pretty good in brawl. Got one on t3 and then proceeded to do 12 damage to the face while also getting a sorcerer apprentice from another idol lol. What was funny was the first card I picked was an alexstraza, that paladin had no chance

Pretty good is an understatement. I got flamewaker then I just took spells the rest of the way and the other guy never even got close to regaining control. He was able to finally get a removal but of course the turn before I got a duplicate and he insta-conceded.

 

[Papercuts]

Not sure if "balanced" is the term I'd use, it's overcost, but it says a lot about the game that Druid would probably still use it before its own removal options. Maybe Naturalize won't suck so much right now.

This card needed to not exist anymore.

I don't think BGH is really overcosted at that. It doesn't have a direct comparison, but shadow word: death is sooooorta similar and 3 mana. BGH in his old iteration was just dumb since the 4/2 is already fine on 3, so he basically had a strong effect for no downside.

Awhile ago I always wanted them to swap the effect with Hemet(5 mana 6/3). BGH would be destroy a beast, while Hemet killed a minion with 7 or more attack, this pushes more in line with that though the body is a lot worse for the cost. I'm actually really happy with how they changed it since it's now an actual decision if it should be put in a deck. His effect is still incredibly strong so he'll pop up in decks, but it also actually gets punished this time and the payoff isn't quite as insane.

 

[Drkirby]

I actually think BGH is still a bit too good. Its body is worth 2.5 mana, and it's effect is worth 3 mana imo (More situational then SWD, but it's a neutral so it has a premium cost)

Its pretty close though. I think I'd rather it be a 6 mana 4/3 or 5/2.

 

[ZealousD]

I feel like Knife Jug didn't get a nerf to what mattered. It wasn't the 3/2 body. It was the free dmg it did if you combo'd it with other shit.

Am I crazy here?

The text is what really distinguishes it from other 2 drops and so it's what people gravitate towards when they think about the card, but what makes the card insane is that it has that text while also being attached to a body that you're perfectly fine playing on Turn 2.

Changing the card to a 2/2 significantly alters its playability on Turn 2. It'll get bullied by every 2/3 around that mana cost, especially in Wild where the card will remain the most relevant, because Zombie Chow just eviscerates it.

There's never been a 2 mana 2/2 in the game where you drop it on Turn 2 and you have to wait until the card survives on Turn 3 before you get value off of it. Cards like Pint-Sized Summoner and Cutpurse are very weak for this reason.

I think the idea behind this nerf is to kill it as a Turn 2 play and that you turn it into something of a build around to combo with cards that spawn a lot of dudes, like Muster or Implosion or whatever. If you went with the nerf where it only triggered on on played minions rather than summoned it wouldn't really change the card's status as one of the most powerful Turn 2 cards in the game. Like right now people aren't necessarily happy with a Turn 2 Knife Juggler because it gets bullied by cards like Minibot, Mad Scientist, Zombie Chow, and Leper Gnome, but with those cards rotating out or being changed, Knife Juggler was going to be a much stronger on-curve 2-drop if there was no nerf.

 

[Biochet]

fuck this where are the arena nerfs blizzard

 

[Sheroking]

fuck this where are the arena nerfs blizzard

Never going to happen.

Arena gets passive nerfs when new sets are introduced and older cards appear less frequently. Gonna be a lot fewer Keeper of Uldaman's next week.

 

[Drkirby]

Never going to happen.

Arena gets passive nerfs when new sets are introduced and older cards appear less frequently. Gonna be a lot fewer Keeper of Uldaman's next week.

I think people really want the basic cards given rarities so the powerful ones show up less.

 

[inky]

It's still potentially the best removal in the game, assuming you have a target to hit.

It still often trades 2 cards for 1, unlike execute or hunters mark that often trades 2 for 1 in the opposite direction, and it's still more tempo than Hex or Polymorph or shadow word death, trading 1 or 2 mana for a 4-2 minion and maybe one less frog or sheep on their side.

The only drawback compared to every single other removal is still that it sucks if it has no target to hit, even more now than before, but it seems more likely than ever you'll have a target to hit.

We might see a little more of a meta game tech card between BGH being popular and 7+ attack minions being popular, but we're definitely not seeing the end of BGH in any class.

It has another drawback, albeit a very small one, in that if you are the only one with a 7 attack minion on the board you can't really play it for tempo. And I understand a lot of the people would think: well if that is the case you probably already won, but there's always those cases where you haven't. But, it is still the drawback of being removal tied to a minion. It's a more complex card.

If we use the term "removal" very loosely, Sap is now the best tempo play in that category, and Mulch might see some play yet. Naturalize is still very iffy, because card advantage is so powerful.

I don't disagree that it is still playable and has a spot in; I said as much, I just don't think balanced is quite the term for it. It's expensive, yet still quite annoying and somewhat limiting. I'm not comfortable with it existing in any capacity.

 

[rickyson1]

heh got a golden BGH from my brawl pack

 

[Sheroking]

heh got a golden BGH from my brawl pack

Well, enjoy that 1600 dust.

 

[LyleLanley]

Haven't dusted a card in a while in preparation for Old Gods. I'm up to just under 17,000 ready to go.