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[toddhunter]

well those nerfs do little. I see things as:

* freeze mage
* control warrior to counter freeze mage
* midrange hunter to counter control warrior
* aggro to rank up

Boom, new meta. I guess removing rogue from the game was something but I can't see how we are not about to hit the worst constructed phase ever.

 

[Sheroking]

Both of those would still do it

Well, for 6 more days.

 

[RecRoulette]

Just want to remind any new people that if you don't have the Naxxaramas Adventure for some reason and you want to play it, you need to buy the first wing before the big update happens.

 

[toddhunter]

Minor nerfs +1 mana? Cards are completely and utterly unplayable 1 mana overcosted. Jesus.

You never played owl for the stats. Are you removing it because of the +1?

 

[jgminto]

well those nerfs do little. I see things as:

* freeze mage
* control warrior to counter freeze mage
* midrange hunter to counter control warrior
* aggro to rank up

Boom, new meta. I guess removing rogue from the game was something but I can't see how we are not about to hit the worst constructed phase ever.

Midrange Paladin is a better CW counter, they can't keep up with Justicar Recruits.

 

[gutshot]

Yeah but how would you nerf Ice Block?

Two ideas:

Take out the Immune for the rest of the turn. The card would still prevent lethal damage the first time, but then require your opponent to have at least one other source of lethal damage. This might be too strong a nerf.

Other option would be to make it like the Animated Armor effect for one turn. This would be worse than current Ice Block when attempting to stay alive at just a few HP but much better earlier in the game at reducing damage.

 

[Levi]

Control warrior in standard us already losing its best card. They don't need any more nerfs.

 

[jon bones]

well those nerfs do little. I see things as:

* freeze mage
* control warrior to counter freeze mage
* midrange hunter to counter control warrior
* aggro to rank up

Boom, new meta. I guess removing rogue from the game was something but I can't see how we are not about to hit the worst constructed phase ever.

have they released info on all the new cards?

 

[TheSadRanger]

Minor nerfs +1 mana? Cards are completely and utterly unplayable 1 mana overcosted. Jesus.

Those are pretty fair, control warrior managing early game is fine.

What's bullshit is them completely managing mid game and late game as well where almost every match turns into a fatigue game with them. It's bad enough I gotta whittle down their 1 million + health without them getting a shit ton of cheap kills.

After around 50 games between the last two days in constructed (ranks 6-8) all I see is control warrior lately.

 

[Fersis]

Ok, 6 hours after the announcement and after running 6Km
IM STILL HELLA MAD AT THE KNIFE JUGGLER NERF!!!

 

[LyleLanley]

I don't think I'd mind Ice Block as much if you could only have one of them.

 

[Karsticles]

Pretty exciting day. Duelyst and Hearthstone announcing major patch changes. Duelyst gaining hero powers and nerfing/reworking pretty much every card hated on feels amazing.

Master of Disguise is a design limitation on powerful persistent effects on neutral minions.

Could anything even be more powerful than Master of Disguise + Ragnaros, and it gets zero play?

Make it a legendary. Done. No arena is harmed, the card still works as intended.

The issue with the card is you can't change the text without "LOL SOUL OF THE CARD" issues or making it awful. Letting Freeze mage stall for 2 consecutive turns while they burn you down with spells has been the real issue. However with Mad Scientist rotating out of standard, they won't be able to Alexstraza and get an ice block up unless they have preloaded Thaurissan ticks. So in a way the removal of mad scientist has hurt the class more than any nerf. Mage secrets are the most expensive and therefore need the best return to be worthwhile. I am still skeptical though. The deck seems completely viable still.

I also like the idea of Ice Block being a legendary.

Spend 8 health to remove an 8 health minion? Seems bad. Very bad.

So Cho'gall is bad now? It's basically what his buff does. Pay health instead of mana to get a really nice effect. You could even make Shield Slam 0 mana, and I think that would be fine.

well those nerfs do little. I see things as:

* freeze mage
* control warrior to counter freeze mage
* midrange hunter to counter control warrior
* aggro to rank up

Boom, new meta. I guess removing rogue from the game was something but I can't see how we are not about to hit the worst constructed phase ever.

Pretty much. I thought they specifically said they were going to fix the Control Warrior vs. Freeze Mage matchup.

 

[Sheroking]

3 of 10 games today were Freeze Mage. They're already warming up for standard.

Losing scientist isn't small for them. They are going to draw block less reliably than they have over the last couple years. They'll lose Emperor in the not too distant future, which severely limits their burst.

I would have liked Alex to change to "set a hero's health to 20" - buffing it defensively and nerfing it offensively. Aside from that, maybe change Ice Lance so that it doesn't target face? That's where the damage stacking gets a little insane in Freeze Mage IMO.

 

[Heropon]

Could anything even be more powerful than Master of Disguise + Ragnaros, and it gets zero play?

Ragnaros gets unstealthed when he fires the fireball, so it doesn't work.

 

[ZealousD]

Could anything even be more powerful than Master of Disguise + Ragnaros, and it gets zero play?

That doesn't work. Stealth breaks when an enemy deals damage. Ragnaros deals damage. This is also why nobody has ever done Knife Juggler and Master of Disguise.

 

[Sheroking]

Could anything even be more powerful than Master of Disguise + Ragnaros, and it gets zero play?

Stealth disappears the second a minion does damage. Ragnaros loses stealth the second he throws a fireball.

The most powerful theoretical interaction with Master of Disguise in Hearthstone is Mal'ganis. Amaz actually pulled that off once. It's basically game over unless you have one of a very small handful of spells (like Twisting Nether or Deadly Shot).

Obviously that's almost impossible to pull off, but Blizzard constantly has to think about what kind of neutral/Rogue minions they create because permanent stealth could very easily break the game.

 

[Karsticles]

Ragnaros gets unstealthed when he fires the fireball, so it doesn't work.

That doesn't work. Stealth breaks when an enemy deals damage. Ragnaros deals damage. This is also why nobody has ever done Knife Juggler and Master of Disguise.

Stealth disappears the second a minion does damage. Ragnaros loses stealth the second he throws a fireball.

The most powerful theoretical interaction with Master of Disguise in Hearthstone is Mal'ganis. Amaz actually pulled that off once. It's basically game over unless you have one of a very small handful of spells (like Twisting Nether or Deadly Shot).

Obviously that's almost impossible to pull off, but Blizzard constantly has to think about what kind of neutral/Rogue minions they create because permanent stealth could very easily break the game.

Thanks guys!

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

So Cho'gall is bad now? It's basically what his buff does. Pay health instead of mana to get a really nice effect. You could even make Shield Slam 0 mana, and I think that would be fine.

It's not even remotely the same.

 

[ZealousD]

Obviously that's almost impossible to pull off, but Blizzard constantly has to think about what kind of neutral/Rogue minions they create because permanent stealth could very easily break the game.

They had to think about this when designing Animated Armor for example. It would have been a neutral card but it was broken with Master of Disguise.

 

[QFNS]

They had to think about this when designing Animated Armor for example. It would have been a neutral card but it was broken with Master of Disguise.

MAN. Think of the possibilities with a neutral Animated Armor! Such a loss.

 

[Dahbomb]

Pint-sized Summoner
Cutpurse
Micromachine
Scavening Hyena
Argent Protector
Defias Ringleader
Dire Wolf Alpha
Frostwolf Grunt
Crazed Alchemist
Kobold Geomancer

Playing a naked 2 mana 2/2 on Turn 2 without getting some additional benefit from a Deathrattle or Battlecry is garbage. Knife Juggler is dead on Turn 2, period. End of story.

None of these cards have effects as powerful as Knife Juggler. Pint Sized Summoner is the closest but the effect isn't on the same turn where as Juggler can get effects on the same turn and with every following summon. It's a card that is good on the turn it's played with a combo and if it stays.

Knife Juggler has always been bad when played naked on turn 2. Basically a Razorfen Raptor in many cases. Sometimes you need to play it in desperation just like you play Direwolf Alpha in desperation.

 

[Dart]

MAN. Think of the possibilities with a neutral Animated Armor! Such a loss.

I mean it's possible to have a neutral animated armor mechanic now with the nerf, right?

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Would a neutral animated armor even see play? It soaks up ~4 health against burn decks. Acts as a taunt against minion based aggro decks.

I was excited at the prospect of a card like this because new text and all. Not surprised to see it not played.

 

[toddhunter]

Midrange Paladin is a better CW counter, they can't keep up with Justicar Recruits.

True but people will play secrets instead. And besides, Paladin sucks.

Wait for the new mage card. 2 mana, remove your opponents armour. If they have no armour, do 3 damage instead.

 

[Sheroking]

Which new class legendaries haven't we seen?

Mage and...?

 

[gutshot]

Which new class legendaries haven't we seen?

Mage and...?

Druid and Warrior.

 

[jgminto]

Good timing on the brawl pack, when are the nerfs being patched in btw?

 

[ZealousD]

None of these cards have effects as powerful as Knife Juggler. Pint Sized Summoner is the closest but the effect isn't on the same turn where as Juggler can get effects on the same turn and with every following summon. It's a card that is good on the turn it's played with a combo and if it stays.

Knife Juggler's effect being able to trigger on the same turn is irrelevant when played on curve on Turn 2, which is essentially my point. All of those cards are pretty garbage on Turn 2 because they don't return value until Turn 3.

Also, Argent Protector's effect is absolutely stronger than Knife Juggler. Hell, it is even stronger than Minibot in a midrange deck on turns AFTER Turn 2. Consider its power in arena. Scavenging Hyena is at least extremely close to Juggler when paired with UTH (if not better) but it's garbage on Turn 2.

I am not saying that the new Knife Juggler is awful or unplayable. Just that it's unplayable on Turn 2.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

Maybe the new rogue weapon will have deathrattle, and have a strong deathrattle effect that would have been broken with blade flurry.

 

[Dahbomb]

Knife Juggler's effect being able to trigger on the same turn is irrelevant when played on curve on Turn 2, which is essentially my point. All of those cards are pretty garbage on Turn 2 because they don't return value until Turn 3.

Also, Argent Protector's effect is absolutely stronger than Knife Juggler. Hell, it is even stronger than Minibot in a midrange deck on turns AFTER Turn 2. Consider its power in arena. Scavenging Hyena is at least extremely close to Juggler when paired with UTH (if not better) but it's garbage on Turn 2.

I am not saying that the new Knife Juggler is awful or unplayable. Just that it's unplayable on Turn 2.

Juggler was already pretty bad when played on turn 2.

There's no way that Argent Protector's one time effect is better than Juggler's persistent effect. Also Juggler as a 2/2 is far superior to Argent on turn 2. If a Paladin in Wild plays Juggler on turn 2, then I am still sweating for a Muster for Battle play. Argent Protector has no must remove effect when played naked on turn 2.

 

[ZealousD]

ATTENTION! ATTENTION!

Dahbomb and I are tentatively scheduled to do a NERF REVIEW stream in the neighborhood of around 10pm EST/7pm PST tonight. We will be talking about the nerfs that Blizzard announced today and whether the cards are still viable or shitsux.

Follow me on Twitch to get a notification when this happens!
https://www.twitch.tv/zealousdemon

I will also post an announcement in this thread just before we start.

This will lead up to us doing several streams this weekend where we go through all of the Old Gods cards and do our analysis of those. As before with TGT and LOE, we will then do a re-review stream about 2 months out where we see who gets to be put on blast for being wrong about everything, namely some pros and ourselves.

 

[Celegus]

Good timing on the brawl pack, when are the nerfs being patched in btw?

Same as everything else, the 26th.

 

[Mobius and pet octopus]

The problem with knife juggler is that it is the best 2 drop for aggro now and probably in the future too. It's got this whole side complication of snowballing the game from an early point, rng, etc.. but the whole reason the nerf isn't sufficient is because aggro is still going to run it... almost ubiquitously.

It doesn't matter if there are theoretically better 2 drops for control decks, like argent protector. What matters is what is good for aggro. And knife juggler acting like a board clear or additional face damage is the problem, not because it now deals 1 less damage per a turn or occasionally trades poorly with a 2/3 (that are hardly even played in the first place). I think it's still the best aggro (and sometimes even midrange) 2 drop in the game and losing 1 attack means very little. Therefore the nerf is just not enough to achieve the goal of diversification.

 

[fertygo]

that knife juggler nerf is useless wtf, raise the mana cost to 3 if anything

 

[Cat Party]

Without Creeper, Implosion, and Muster, why are people so concerned about Juggler? UTH?

 

[Pooya]

I'm going to lmao when they reveal the garbage rogue weapon in this set.

Blizzard hasn't printed a playable weapon since gvg for ANY class and so far this set's weapons are pretty bad too.

If you want board clear in rogue, you're going to have to burgle it, that looks like the idea. ayy lmao.

I'm probably going to switch to freeze mage, the last living combo deck.

 

[toddhunter]

Without Creeper, Implosion, and Muster, why are people so concerned about Juggler? UTH?

It still works great in face hunter. So does owl and then you throw in a super animal companion...

It isn't quite as strong, but no sludge belcher or healbot either...

I think the nerfs show that blizzard are really banking on c'thun decks being a thing.

 

[TheSadRanger]

So is the only way to deal with Reno basically is with another Reno deck?

Doesn't seem to matter what I try even with mid range, renopriest and renolock just always seem to heal back whenever I get close.

Any tips on dealing with them or just pray they don't get the draw?

 

[inky]

I'm still pretty salty about the AoL, KotG nerfs. First they set back my most played class at the time (Shaman) a year with their idiotic Murloc focus and lack of good tools to deal with crap like Overload. Then they keep printing terrible, almost unusable cards while letting crap like Paladin run free. Now that Shaman is playable again, Warrior is losing its best card and slow Druid is getting murdered while it's only dumb combo Druid who has been the problem.

They keep shitting on my classes so much

 

[fertygo]

So is the only way to deal with Reno basically is with another Reno deck?

Doesn't seem to matter what I try even with mid range, renopriest and renolock just always seem to heal back whenever I get close.

Any tips on dealing with them or just pray they don't get the draw?

Dominate their board

 

[Pooya]

Handlock can be quite good too. You can't even BGH turn 4 mountain giant now and twilight drake is way better too if spellbreaker is the go to silence, it should go 1 to 1. (Well unless you're shaman and kill them for 1 mana).

Even without molten it can be pretty good. It can counter every control deck. What it needs to survive is some decent heals. The recipe I think plays 2 refreshment vendors and 2 farseers. That won't do much against face shaman but maybe it's enough elsewhere.

 

[jon bones]

I'm going to lmao when they reveal the garbage rogue weapon in this set.

Blizzard hasn't printed a playable weapon since gvg for ANY class and so far this set's weapons are pretty bad too.

If you want board clear in rogue, you're going to have to burgle it, that looks like the idea. ayy lmao.

I'm probably going to switch to freeze mage, the last living combo deck.

is eaglebow still considered a good card?

i'm considering picking 2 of those up, as well as 2 savannah highlands and a sylvanas windrunnwr

 

[Owzers]

So is the only way to deal with Reno basically is with another Reno deck?

Doesn't seem to matter what I try even with mid range, renopriest and renolock just always seem to heal back whenever I get close.

Any tips on dealing with them or just pray they don't get the draw?

Combo druid, play really well around Jaraxxus with death's bite, taunt removal, and grommash, just use aggro shaman and win by turn 5.

 

[ZealousD]

The problem with knife juggler is that it is the best 2 drop for aggro now and probably in the future too. It's got this whole side complication of snowballing the game from an early point, rng, etc.. but the whole reason the nerf isn't sufficient is because aggro is still going to run it... almost ubiquitously.

It doesn't matter if there are theoretically better 2 drops for control decks, like argent protector. What matters is what is good for aggro. And knife juggler acting like a board clear or additional face damage is the problem, not because it now deals 1 less damage per a turn or occasionally trades poorly with a 2/3 (that are hardly even played in the first place). I think it's still the best aggro (and sometimes even midrange) 2 drop in the game and losing 1 attack means very little. Therefore the nerf is just not enough to achieve the goal of diversification.

If Knife Juggler was the best 2 drop for aggro, Aggro Shaman wouldn't have cut it in favor of Flame Juggler.

 

[TheSadRanger]

Dominate their board

What class works best at that against them though? Ramp druid? I have a hard time dealing with their removals and if I establish a board against a reno shadow priest he just lightbombs. I also can't use too many minions against reno decks since many of them often use MC Tech.

 

[jgminto]

So is the only way to deal with Reno basically is with another Reno deck?

Doesn't seem to matter what I try even with mid range, renopriest and renolock just always seem to heal back whenever I get close.

Any tips on dealing with them or just pray they don't get the draw?

Don't commit damage once you figure out its a Reno deck and focus on controlling the board. If you can keep control of the board, getting them back down after Reno will be a lot easier and you won't burn your burst.

What class works best at that against them though? Ramp druid? I have a hard time dealing with their removals and if I establish a board against a reno shadow priest he just lightbombs. I also can't use too many minions against reno decks since many of them often use MC Tech.

Zoolock is a good choice due to how difficult their board is to clear and MC Tech won't have much impact.

 

[KuroNeeko]

Knife Juggler has always been bad when played naked on turn 2. Basically a Razorfen Raptor in many cases. Sometimes you need to play it in desperation just like you play Direwolf Alpha in desperation.

I'm not looking to disprove what you've said here, but a 3/2 Knife Juggler on turn 1/2, especially in response to a Northshire Cleric had always been a thorn in my side.

This is particularly relevant in the matchup vs. Paladin where Aggro will run KJ, but a more Midrange / Control style will run Minibot OT Zombie Chow. Same with face / Midrange hunter. Normally, those two classes don't really contest a NSC on turn two (as opposed to something like Mage or Druid), and essentially turns the turn one NSC into a gamble.

 

[fertygo]

What class works best at that against them though? Ramp druid? I have a hard time dealing with their removals and if I establish a board against a reno shadow priest he just lightbombs. I also can't use too many minions against reno decks since many of them often use MC Tech.

Remember, they only have one answer perfectly so if you respond them after hellfire, you know they don't have it anymore

its almost no way playing around suicide Sylvanas tho, so be wary playing your big important minion before Sylvanas see play

Dragon Deck does really well in my mileage, they have trouble battling off strong 4-5 drop

 

[Papercuts]

What class works best at that against them though? Ramp druid? I have a hard time dealing with their removals and if I establish a board against a reno shadow priest he just lightbombs. I also can't use too many minions against reno decks since many of them often use MC Tech.

Renolock specifically can pretty much never win against combo druid, dunno about full on ramp. I've played the deck a lot and want to cry when I see that pop up.

 

[Ketch]

so is it confirmed that this is all of the nerfs?