GwyndolinCinder
Member
Doomsayer+ Faceless S combo, rip board
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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
They could have at least given it a 1 overload. It wouldn't have changed much and I would still hate the card, but at least it's something.
It gets kinda like that sometimes, but the thread isn't always that, in fact it's almost always more friendly sharing stories and advice. It's the new expansion jitters where things haven't settled that much.
But, real talk now, there's something to this thread I don't like, and it happens often enough. There's always a feeling of trying to one up each other with "I am more right than you". Whenever there's someone coming in with a statement like: 'I think this card works like this and this', or 'this deck seems to be doing this and that' there will invariably come someone who tries to argue you out of it or immediately point out how wrong you are. I understand some of it is part of being in a discussion forum, but a lot of the comments come off as just pointing out how you don't know, but I do in things that are not as clear cut in a game with so many variables and perspectives.
I've been there myself, so I've been guilty of it and I'm not trying to sound above it, but it's a really unfriendly tinge I see here too often and it puts me off a little.
Yes. It gets completly wrecked by Earth Shock as well. Fortunately, few decks run silence nowadays. At least if he gets silenced it means Giants, Doomguard and Councilman are a bit safer. It is also amazing in the zoo mirror.
Yes, I´m still a bit uncertain though, needs more experimentation. Not sure how valuable a vanilla (4) 5/5 Taunt is in most cases.
If you replace nzoth then it's a different deck.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
iunno thats just what he said
said he was taking out nzoth
figured to get to 30 he'd replace it with somethin
OK, sure. I'm the one that got too excited
There is nothing better in the world, than dropping THE LIGHTLORD after you know your opponent is out of threats, and hearing "LIVE, INSECT!" as they concede. Deserves to be on the list of what is best in life.
Oh right, well I'm not seeing how you beat other control decks without it.
Just played a game with a huge noob rogue. I had 12 health he had 7 with 2 goblin auctioneers on the board and no cards left on the deck. Already had taken 6 damage due to drawing but having no cards left. He had 6 cards left in his hands and instead of attacking me with the goblins and finishing me off with a spell or something he instead had the genius idea to play yogg. Yogg casted like 10 spells all buffs to him so he kept drawing more cards and ended up committing suicide and giving me the game. Did he really had to play that yogg?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Murloc Knight still my favourite control finisher.
you don't want xaril in your deathrattle deck, it's not good. Actually you don't want N'Zoth in you deathrattle rogue either. You can win with tempo, that's what rogue is built for. Watch what mryagut was playing yesterday, he cut N'Zoth pretty quickly, he rarely got to play it. The games were over much earlier.
I had a bunch of games played against deathrattle rogues, guess what, I just rush and kill you, , and I was playing control warrior. You can't exactly control that board when it happens and rushing rogue seems like a very successful strategy in general
N'Zoth seems like a paladin thing right now.
I've been playing N'Zoth Paladin, but I've having a hard time against Zoo.
The Old God Yogg-Saron Compels you.
Or maybe he ran out of burst spells needed to finish you off?
As long as we're taking Ls (or Ws) for prerelease predictions, I'll own up that Blood to Ichor ended up being way better in Control Warrior than I gave it credit for. I thought it'd be an amazing arena card and good in an enrage/Patron warrior, but felt it wouldn't see much play in constructed CW. I was wrong.
I will take a W, though, for correctly predicting that Rogue would still be a viable class even without Flurry.
I will take a W, though, for correctly predicting that Rogue would still be a viable class even without Flurry.
are you mulliganning correctly? Search for your aoe and for your keepers and peacekeepers. I haven't lost to a single zoo as n'zoth paladin yet. They are super predictable.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Against Zoo you have to have at least 1 boardwipe piece in your starting hand. Even a doomsayer t2 does very well.
Only losing against Zoo if they have the perfect draw.
Opponent has a dominant board, way overextended, lay on hands finds not a single removal piece. Still almost managed to stabilize at 1
Hit the nail on the head. I don't understand those kinds of "discussions" at all. It's just really off-putting and certainly doesn't help someone like me that doesnt follow the meta or pro scene at all get any better.
I've been having a blast with the expansion personally, definitely my favorite one yet. Thought I'd check in here to see other people's opinions of it and get some ideas of what's worth crafting.
The lists I've seen lack pyro activators, you have to kill the tentacles quickly not to wait for the sea giants to come down then maybe hopefully I get equality. Sea giants are not as scary by themselves when they cost 7 or similar, you just keeper them and leave them but the board is more scary. I think you should 2 humility. Forbidden healing can be use as trigger too.
Read the notes, it explains why he didn't like N'Zoth. If you like it play it, but it's usually better to play something for tempo instead. Control decks are not exactly popular right now. The paladin is the only good one really and you have a better chance at beating it with tempo rather than N'Zoth.
http://www.hearthpwn.com/decks/522882-mryagut-s-deathrattle-rogue-fast-legend
oh Yogg baby mage card, casts shadowstep onto itself. Good turn! I don't mind losing at all!
Darn, made a mistake not killing a wind fury enraged 3/3 over another 4 attack minion, they played a card that dealed 1 damage to it and won the game. Mistakes...feels bad.
and who didn't see a turn 10 kraken execute combo to kill my Ysera. Got to think ahead!
Darn, made a mistake not killing a wind fury enraged 3/3 over another 4 attack minion, they played a card that dealed 1 damage to it and won the game. Mistakes...feels bad.
and who didn't see a turn 10 kraken execute combo to kill my Ysera. Got to think ahead!
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Apologies. Didn't see the link.
I feel he would be good in a ramp deck in general, that doesn't rely on Choose One minions.
But overall he is pretty lackluster.
Watch lifecoah right now, he's trying. It's fun.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Tempo'd a control priest after he had the guy that at EOT gets a minion from the deck, then the one that inspires a legendary getting him Chillmaw. Wild Pyromancer + Consecrate + Hammer of Wrath made short of his board.
Karsticles
Member
I think N'Zoth Rogue is meant to be a control deck. Use value cards instead of draw. Yeah, games take longer, but that's a staple truth of control decks.you don't want xaril in your deathrattle deck, it's not good. Actually you don't want N'Zoth in you deathrattle rogue either. You can win with tempo, that's what rogue is built for. Watch what mryagut was playing yesterday, he cut N'Zoth pretty quickly, he rarely got to play it. The games were over much earlier.
I had a bunch of games played against deathrattle rogues, guess what, I just rush and kill you, , and I was playing control warrior. You can't exactly control that board when it happens and rushing rogue seems like a very successful strategy in general
N'Zoth seems like a paladin thing right now.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Follow up, dude's right. I hardly ever end up playing N'Zoth.
Disguised Toast really knows how to put Blizzard's QA department on blast, lol
https://youtu.be/FKXX2fx4zMk
https://youtu.be/FKXX2fx4zMk
Fought against a F2P? priest that ran Djinni, the new 3/5 Berserker and PW: Tentacle due to me not clearing his 3/2 with my spellpower Earthshock. I guess non-meta finds a way with good draws.
2 matches later, played against a Control Evolve shaman that ran double healing wave/hex and 1x elemental destruction. I didn't draw into my x2 Arcane Intellects, x1 C'thun and x1 Azure Drake until the last 6 cards. I only drew my x1 Cabalist's Tome on my 22th card or something. Could have had lethal if I drew my C'thun on my 24th-27th draw, but of course the shaman healed out of range because fuck me. Still won because he decides to play his manatide totem with only 3 cards remaining, lol.
Currently playing this Tempo-C'thun hybrid mage. Not too sure if I should swap out Archmage for something else like a Rag.
Thoughts? Was also thinking of replacing Sylvanas with another Tome or Azure Drake maybe.
2 matches later, played against a Control Evolve shaman that ran double healing wave/hex and 1x elemental destruction. I didn't draw into my x2 Arcane Intellects, x1 C'thun and x1 Azure Drake until the last 6 cards. I only drew my x1 Cabalist's Tome on my 22th card or something. Could have had lethal if I drew my C'thun on my 24th-27th draw, but of course the shaman healed out of range because fuck me. Still won because he decides to play his manatide totem with only 3 cards remaining, lol.
Currently playing this Tempo-C'thun hybrid mage. Not too sure if I should swap out Archmage for something else like a Rag.
Thoughts? Was also thinking of replacing Sylvanas with another Tome or Azure Drake maybe.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
N'zoth rogue is probably just a worse n'zoth paladin. Less board clear, weaker heals, weaker taunts...
I still might try it eventually. The weakness of blade flurry has really cooled off my desire to test out new rogue builds.
I still might try it eventually. The weakness of blade flurry has really cooled off my desire to test out new rogue builds.
That's the problem, it's a bad idea to play that. Rogue isn't a class fit for playing the control game as of right now. It's actually worse than before in standard and all of your best cards are about tempo, your hero power has the best tempo in the game but it's only relevant early in the game, it's always sub optimal to try and play control with rogue. Maybe it changes in future but the nerf actually made it worse for control rogue and healing doesn't seem to be in Blizzard's plans for the class like hunter. They favor fast or combo decks. I can see them making some good class taunts though but healing probably not.
C'Thun rogue is interesting, probably the best example of slower rogue decks to date, it's slow but then you suddenly swing the board and threaten with a lot of burst damage. I think decks like that are interesting, malygos rogue is somewhat similar but it's not exactly slow. Rogue is never going to play like priest, paladin or warrior where they can utilize a card like N'Zoth well. You play a 10 mana card and don't win on the spot, as rogue player, you can lose on the back swing. Those classes can say, whatever, game still goes on.
Why even play N'Zoth in rogue when you have shadowcasters or raptors, those are like N'Zoth but way faster.
TetraxShards
Member
Playing Nefarian, getting Journey Below, then playing that and getting Deathwing Dragonlord, which gets Blade of C'Thuned and summons Ysera, Chillmaw and my own Deathwing Dragonlord.
That was a fun game. I also got Assassinate, which came in handy for C'Thun.
That was a fun game. I also got Assassinate, which came in handy for C'Thun.
I've been thinking about these two decks for quite a bit and I'm not sure Rogue is weaker. Rogue has better single target removal, high tempo spells that can swing a board, and better early game death rattle minions. Their N'Zoth deck has such good minions and spells that it doesn't need weapon buffs.
I think both decks are in the same tier. I think Rogue plays out more like a mid-range, using minions and cheap spells to fight off aggro with high tempo. N'zoth becomes an alternate win condition in the Tempo/mid-range game that results in a full board and some minion that will draw a lot of cards.
Then Paladin plays out more like a control deck where you play fewer more powerful Death Rattle minions and use N'zoth as your ultimate win condition. You can even out value your opponent by using your large board clears and hero power. Healing out of range of aggro to survive to late game is also part of the plan.
Tempo rogue used to be a really good deck, the card draw and burst portions were used to build Miracle Rogue, while the minion portions were taken out. Well now we have strong minions and we still have the the amazing spells.
Karsticles
Member
I can see your point. I haven't played any Rogue decks seriously, so I don't have much to contribute.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I don't think the problem with rogue is having enough stuff to sustain a longer fight. I think the problem is getting to the late game consistently in a good enough position to win. Vs control, I know they can do that. Perhaps even more now that dr. boom is out, as that was one of the most problematic cards to deal with as control rogue.
But against midrange or aggro, that is the challenge. You fall behind on board and you probably have a harder time getting back to equal footing than even shaman/druid does.
Then again, n'zoth rogue can probably curve out a lot faster than n'zoth paladin does. I kinda see why n'zoth rogue could be a powerful force with a really refined list. I only worry that it's too sprint reliant, because if it is that means they may have a weak mid game or make other sacrifices like having to sprint for 7 (which can work).
Miracle rogue is in a decent spot. And malygos rogue is as well. The list she is running is already a popular competitive deck.
But against midrange or aggro, that is the challenge. You fall behind on board and you probably have a harder time getting back to equal footing than even shaman/druid does.
Then again, n'zoth rogue can probably curve out a lot faster than n'zoth paladin does. I kinda see why n'zoth rogue could be a powerful force with a really refined list. I only worry that it's too sprint reliant, because if it is that means they may have a weak mid game or make other sacrifices like having to sprint for 7 (which can work).
Miracle rogue is in a decent spot. And malygos rogue is as well. The list she is running is already a popular competitive deck.
I try to not overcommit, but also make them waste burn in my minions and not my face. Always be ready for their tools, whether it is a secret coming up, a freeze effect or a Doomsayer (which means saving cards instead of tempoing them out) and basically hope they don't have enough damage in their hand before you managed to hit them.
It's an absurd match for everyone I think.
Trigger_happy
Member
Either rush him down or pressure him while playing around AoEs to proc ice block asap.
You can tech in Eater of Secrets and Ragnaros.
With Hunter the match up is easier. You maximize hero power usage and if they play a late Ice Barrier you play around it by just burning them (Ice Barrier doesn't trigger on spells or hero power).
You put maximum pressure in the first 4 turns. On turn 5 you test for Frost Nova + Doomsayer. If they don't use it against a threatening board then you go harder on turn 6 which means they are forced to use Blizzard vs using Emperor.
You pretty much want to put them on a clock. Have to pop Ice Block because it's harder for them to burn + control board in the same turn (if they have Ice Block they will play more aggressively and start the burn later into the game or set up Alex turn).
Playing with Control decks you want to save your heals until after Alex hits you. Keep removals ready for Emperor, Alex and Antonidas. Try to pressure with whatever you have.
So this deck is just theory, but here is what I'm trying out tonight.
2x Backstab
2x Sap
2x Eviscerate
2x Loot Hoarder
2x Undercity Huckster
1x Bloodmage Thalnos
1x Fan of Knives
2x SI:7 Agent
2x Unearthed Raptor
1x Dark Iron Skulker
2x Azure Drake
2x Shadowcaster
1x Xaril, Poisoned Mind
1x Sylvanus
1x Cairn
1x N'Zoth
The deck has 9 cards that draw or generate cards, that is more than most combo decks that rely on cycling. The amount of draw is even more if Unearthed Raptor or Shadow Caster lands on one of those minions.
Against Control the deck will be much more aggressive than Oil Rogues of the past. You don't sit and wait for a combo, you are playing out your minions on curve and using spells for removal. N'zoth, Cairn, and Sylvanus are the cards that let you win those match ups.
This deck doesn't need your big death rattles to be played before N'zoth either. Summoning your 2 drops is very powerful as well.
The deck is 5 cards short. I think Shadow Strike, Defender of Argus, Twilight Summoner, Van Cleef, or adding another Fan of Knives/Dark Iron Skulker are all good options.
Theory crafting over.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Seriously, fuck Blizzard for giving Zoolock more ridiculous cards.
Well the first Old Gods rage has been received:
Dude was playing the standard control pally, with the healbots etc. I haven't lost that match-up a single time so far.
Been testing out A light in the Darkness and so far it's been pretty damn good. Turns out getting a 4/5 keeper to play against a Flamewreathed faceless while you have Rallying Blade equipped is pretty good.
Dude was playing the standard control pally, with the healbots etc. I haven't lost that match-up a single time so far.
Been testing out A light in the Darkness and so far it's been pretty damn good. Turns out getting a 4/5 keeper to play against a Flamewreathed faceless while you have Rallying Blade equipped is pretty good.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Haha, holy shit. Warrior played Malkorok and got Cursed Blade.
32 damage Al'Akir combo anyone?
32 damage Al'Akir combo anyone?
IMO, you need 2 Fan of Knives to deal with zoo decks.
This is what I was running last night:
Finished my good mage draft arena at 11 wins, robbed of 12 by a fellow mage.
Reward: One old gods pack and 420ish gold. Old god pack gave me a Forbidden Healing which i didn't have and a second hogger ( hogger was one of three legendaries i got in my 63 old gods packs including daily quests). I used the rest of that gold for more packs and got a bunch of nothing outside of a disciple of c'thun i didn't want to use dust to craft.
On the road to N'zoth pally eventually.
Reward: One old gods pack and 420ish gold. Old god pack gave me a Forbidden Healing which i didn't have and a second hogger ( hogger was one of three legendaries i got in my 63 old gods packs including daily quests). I used the rest of that gold for more packs and got a bunch of nothing outside of a disciple of c'thun i didn't want to use dust to craft.
On the road to N'zoth pally eventually.