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Hearthstone |OT6| C'THUN for President! Why pick the lesser evil?
- Thread starter ZealousD
- Start date
I do my dailies in ranked and then do an arena run every week, and don't commit that much more time then that. When you play the game casually like that, hitting Rank 5 every month isn't that easy. If I actually sit down and try to grind for ranks, it's very easy for me to go on tilt and start blaming RNG for my losses because I'm much more focused on trying to win games as efficiently as possible. And of course going on tilt just makes things even worse for you. So playing the game casually is about as much as I can do. So it'll be impossible for me to ever hit legend, and even getting Rank 5 each month is something of an accomplishment.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Most actual pro players agree that aggro takes a lot of skill, as much as if not more than control. And kripp... salty af. Most popular? Maybe idk. He is just not good at the game though. Every time I watch him he makes really obvious errors. So take what he says about aggro with a grain of salt. Or a spoonful. Jug?
Who? Chakki? Maybe aggro in a tournament setting is more a skill test (maybe) but any deck where you can win making zero decisions (play every card you draw, point all damage to face) is not close to control where you have to make so many decisions and those decisions matter.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Control players love arguing that no matter the card game but it's never true. For combo I'd argue that's the case but for control you just play reactive, the lines are still fairly clear.
I mean, the ladder is literally just playing the game in its most pure form. If someone did not like doing that I'm not sure what piece of the game they would like unless they were an Arena fanatic.
Probably because they are not skilled enough. The winrate bonus is already a tool that can inflate people's rank just by playing enough.
I did it playing a mix of Pirate Rogue and Warrior last season and Tempo Warrior this season. You're complaining about people "netdecking" and "tryharding" but you're playing one of the most popular deck types on the ladder, and part of the reason people are playing Tempo Warrior is because it can do well against the Shamans you're complaining so much about.
Lol. Control so easy, aggro so skillful.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
never said that.
BananasWithGuns
Member
Uhh, no.
There are a lot of important decisions control players have to make in terms of using their cards efficiently. You don't just burn your removal on a whim. Deciding when and how to use your cards is a hugely important factor in whether a control player will be successful or not.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
so aggro players play on a whim apparently.
You'd say that from the receiving end.
However, from the opposite end, there are a billion decisions/possibilities to think about. Even worse when there's a counterspell / secret in play.
No, their decks just revolve around looking at the mana count, play a card, and hope it sticks.
They also tend to be players who emote a lot when rope appears.
BananasWithGuns
Member
If you think aggro requires anywhere near the decision making skills that control does then I don't know what to tell you.
Aggro decks are the most straightforward and autopilot decks in Hearthstone.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I am on the opposite end! I'm playing N'Zoth Paladin. There's still decisions involved they might not seem as intricate but they might make the difference between your opponent stabilizing or being dead.
same can be said about HS in general. It's not the most complicate game out there.
Paladin is not on the same scale as Priest/Warrior.
Just play stuff. You play a deck that summons all your past stuff.
Warriors have to balance when to use Execute.
Priest have to balance when to use Pain/Death and board clears. Sometimes the obvious answer is to pass, but if you play Paladin prior to Priest, you'd feel like you're missing out on something. Paladins can just hero power.
Control is far harder to play well than aggro.
It's not even a matter of opinion, it's a quantitative statement. Control decks play with more cards in hand and that by default means more decisions and options (so harder to pick out best play). In addition, Control vs control games go for longer turns which means more decisions made per game. An aggro game is short no matter the match up, games are decided in first 6 turns.
People can say aggro is skillful all they want but it just doesn't compare to control game play.
All the aggro classes/decks (Shaman, Secret Paladin and Zoolock) easily make rank 5 some even Legend when bots pilot them. Never heard of a control deck piloted by a bot make it to Legend.
It's not even a matter of opinion, it's a quantitative statement. Control decks play with more cards in hand and that by default means more decisions and options (so harder to pick out best play). In addition, Control vs control games go for longer turns which means more decisions made per game. An aggro game is short no matter the match up, games are decided in first 6 turns.
People can say aggro is skillful all they want but it just doesn't compare to control game play.
All the aggro classes/decks (Shaman, Secret Paladin and Zoolock) easily make rank 5 some even Legend when bots pilot them. Never heard of a control deck piloted by a bot make it to Legend.
I agree. Seeing Frank Karsten play affinity really show the nuances an aggro player has to put into his game. Same goes for seeing a good player play Zoo for example in a tournament.
I think the main gap between aggro/control is that the control player is more easily punished for it's misplays because he/she is the one that should be providing the answers. Whereas an aggro player will still put a question on the board and even if it's not the optimal question it still needs answering.
This is wrong in so many ways.
Stuff like former midrange druid, control warrior, former midrange/secret paladin, and priest take the throne as far as being braindead decks, great for laddering while watching tv.
That's why I like laddering with c.Warrior, like 70% of the game is just me removing shit from the board from anyone trying to kill me, the rest is me removing shit from the board but making sure I get the most value from the cards.
MetroidPrimeRib
Banned
I just won via bluffing for the first time.
Was 4 dmg off lethal and I put a power overwhelming on my guy, hit "well played" and hovered abusive sarge over him and he thought it was another PO and conceded
Was 4 dmg off lethal and I put a power overwhelming on my guy, hit "well played" and hovered abusive sarge over him and he thought it was another PO and conceded
Rosenskjold
Member
Damn it feels so bad to not get your proper turn sequence done and then see you could have won if you had just done it!! That rope is costing me rank 9 
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
https://tempostorm.com/articles/the-skill-myth-in-aggro-decks
-Great article. Worth reading the whole thing. Couple points it makes is that while there are less turns playing as aggro, you often have multiple choices during that game with merits for each choice. A control matchup vs aggro is often has just as linear a game plan as aggro's "all offense", which is "all defense". He also talks about the skill involved in aggro mirror matches, identifying when you're the aggressor or when you need to trade is a big deal, also present in control match ups at times. People say face decks never trade, but sometimes the right move is to trade.
I've personally played way more control than aggro and I still agree with the assessments made.
http://www.pcgamer.com/in-defence-of-aggro-in-hearthstone/
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/484799-liquidsavjz-in-defense-of-aggro
Savjz thinks it's an issue of perception.
Oh, and then we have kripp's opinion as a professional salt shaker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu5D71PBOXc
-Great article. Worth reading the whole thing. Couple points it makes is that while there are less turns playing as aggro, you often have multiple choices during that game with merits for each choice. A control matchup vs aggro is often has just as linear a game plan as aggro's "all offense", which is "all defense". He also talks about the skill involved in aggro mirror matches, identifying when you're the aggressor or when you need to trade is a big deal, also present in control match ups at times. People say face decks never trade, but sometimes the right move is to trade.
I've personally played way more control than aggro and I still agree with the assessments made.
http://www.pcgamer.com/in-defence-of-aggro-in-hearthstone/
http://www.liquidhearth.com/forum/hearthstone/484799-liquidsavjz-in-defense-of-aggro
Savjz thinks it's an issue of perception.
Oh, and then we have kripp's opinion as a professional salt shaker: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vu5D71PBOXc
all <3 for kripp though, except when he casts
BananasWithGuns
Member
Oh god, we're calling control Warrior and Priest braindead now?
Oh god, we're calling control Warrior and Priest braindead now?
well, they are easier for me to pilot than midrange. Pure aggro and pure control are the easiest to pilot, because they require the fewest shifts in tactics.
Playing Control isn't particularly hard, except in mirrors, but this is true of aggro as well.
You remove whatever you can and then set up a wall when you don't need to remove. Why is this supposed to be some incredible display of Hearthstone skill? It's the simplest kind of card game arithmetic.
You remove whatever you can and then set up a wall when you don't need to remove. Why is this supposed to be some incredible display of Hearthstone skill? It's the simplest kind of card game arithmetic.
Oh god, we're calling control Warrior and Priest braindead now?
there are matchups with control warrior where you have to think but they are usually fatigue considerations or the mirror match.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Yup, sometimes control is freaking incredibly easy to play. You often just make the best value play turn after turn. If you never have to shift from defense to offense, then you have just as much linearity in your game plan as pure aggression.
Yeah, control mirrors can be very skill intense. I don't think control is brain dead as the other poster suggested. But I don't think aggro is either.
of course sometimes even those just devolve into "don't play any cards ever"
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
of course sometimes even those just devolve into "don't play any cards ever"
Hero power, pass. Hero power, pass. Hero power, pass...
Rosenskjold
Member
I'm gonna sleep so well now!
Sorry for the bitching. So stoked I reached this before one whole week of exam paper.
Sorry for the bitching. So stoked I reached this before one whole week of exam paper.
Finally something i agree with.
There is definintely a big difference between a bad aggro player and a good one, but either way it's easier mostly by virtue of what the deck is. You are looking to end ASAP, control decks don't, and especially in control mirrors the longer games go, the more chances there are to missplay.
But aggro does need to play around clears, know when and how to best trade or go face, weaving in hero powers, etc. Of course that's hardly rocket science, but it exposes really bad players.
But aggro does need to play around clears, know when and how to best trade or go face, weaving in hero powers, etc. Of course that's hardly rocket science, but it exposes really bad players.
Thing is that a lot of people consider Secret Paladin and Mech Mage "aggro" decks too. Same with Zoolock.
Seems like aggro in this case is talking about just face decks of which there is really only one in the game which is Aggro Shaman and even Aggro Shaman is very board centric with powerful Midrange minions like Faceless/Feral/Master or other board centric minions like Argent Squire.
Just about a hundred more Ranked wins and I never have to play that mode again (except to get to 20 each month)
Not pictured are the three Warrior decks I use in wild (Patron, N'zoth and Pirate) and the four homebrew decks I have on my limited collection EU account.
About 300 of my 400 Warrior wins were done with Fatigue Warrior. I could have probably golden heroed two other heroes in the time I spent getting those wins, lol.
Not pictured are the three Warrior decks I use in wild (Patron, N'zoth and Pirate) and the four homebrew decks I have on my limited collection EU account.
About 300 of my 400 Warrior wins were done with Fatigue Warrior. I could have probably golden heroed two other heroes in the time I spent getting those wins, lol.
toddhunter
Member
Control decks are braindead in hearthstone because 99% of the time you are playing against aggro.
Proof you can fuck up as an aggro deck.
I am C'Thun Druid up against an Aggro Shaman. I am staring down a board with Flame Juggler, Flametongue Totem, and some other minion that has 4 attack thanks to the Flametongue Ttoem. I have nothing on board. I'm on 7 mana, and I play Brann into Mark of the Wild into Wild Growth.
This Aggro Shaman rolls a taunt totem, runs one of his minions into Brann leaving him with 4/2. This Shaman thinks he's cute, because he doesn't trade his flame juggler into my Brann. He's like "oh, my 2/2 taunt totem will kill the brann, i don't have to throw away my minion". Then he played some other garbo crap. Finley into Paladin hero power or something.
It was at this moment, that the shaman knew, he fucked up.
I coin out C'Thun. 16 missiles cleared his board with brann still very much alive.
I am C'Thun Druid up against an Aggro Shaman. I am staring down a board with Flame Juggler, Flametongue Totem, and some other minion that has 4 attack thanks to the Flametongue Ttoem. I have nothing on board. I'm on 7 mana, and I play Brann into Mark of the Wild into Wild Growth.
This Aggro Shaman rolls a taunt totem, runs one of his minions into Brann leaving him with 4/2. This Shaman thinks he's cute, because he doesn't trade his flame juggler into my Brann. He's like "oh, my 2/2 taunt totem will kill the brann, i don't have to throw away my minion". Then he played some other garbo crap. Finley into Paladin hero power or something.
It was at this moment, that the shaman knew, he fucked up.
I coin out C'Thun. 16 missiles cleared his board with brann still very much alive.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
Is it bad that I want Gallon to lose just because he looks like a real jerk
poppedcollar69
Member
got the dream to happen for my non fuckfack shaman deck
still lost to the face warrior though
still lost to the face warrior though
I just feel like aggro decks aren't punished as hard for misplays as any other deck. The amount of Shamans I've seen who can't properly position their Tuskarr Totemics... it's mind boggling. A control or midrange deck can lose with one bad turn. An aggro deck can just win by vomiting their hand mindlessly and dragging everything to face, even when it's a bad play to do so. Their opponent doesn't draw their answers in time? Game over, regardless of skill.
There's a reason bot-creators choose decks like Secret Paladin and Aggro Shaman to rank up with. They are the closest thing this game has to auto-pilot decks.
Some aggro players are very skilled players who just prefer that style. The people who create the decks are quite skilled at deck building. Making an efficient aggro list is not easy.
Claiming that aggro is somehow a style that rewards skill as much as other styles of play? Maybe. But it's also the style of play where an unskilled player is least likely to be punished.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I just pulled off a double whammy. Face warrior vs my malyos rogue. I think usually malygos rogue is unfavored simply due to the potential damage output of arcanite reaper, upgrade, etc..
Anyway, I never gave him a chance to seize board tempo, which is pretty important for the warrior. Also kinda hard to do since rogue doesn't run a ton of minions, but I managed to. Turn 9 I played a naked malygos and passed. Turn 10 I played evolved kobold, sinister strike, eviscerate, so 21 damage off 2 cards.
Just thought it was funny it turned out that way, against a face deck of all things.
Anyway, I never gave him a chance to seize board tempo, which is pretty important for the warrior. Also kinda hard to do since rogue doesn't run a ton of minions, but I managed to. Turn 9 I played a naked malygos and passed. Turn 10 I played evolved kobold, sinister strike, eviscerate, so 21 damage off 2 cards.
Just thought it was funny it turned out that way, against a face deck of all things.
Underrated post.
Say Warrior player too, like what you guys bad matchup
Its just the good old scummy tempo mage