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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK
- Thread starter Nirolak
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So I've spent today watching tournaments from every single region.
Triple warrior is being experimented in the eastern hemisphere, but it hasn't gotten much traction it looks like. However, double warrior is becoming popular worldwide, mostly because you need that in order to do a dive comp against Kael'Thas, and it also works to help make a frontline to defend against dive comps on your team's own Kael'Thas. Arthas has been coming back in the meta to support this, especially in cases where one of the other four main tanks (Muradin, Johanna, Anubarak, Tyreal) are banned. Arthas' slow helps a lot against divers.
Also noticed, Uther and Rhegar often work as half-tanks in the same way that Tassadar and Tyrande are half-healers. Which means that neither of those two are going to stop being the most sought after healers for a while. Li Li, on the other hand, has been proving a pretty strong hero, even against comps that carry a hero or two to specifically counter her. By the next major tournament, we're likely to stop seeing support lock ups much at all.
Triple warrior is being experimented in the eastern hemisphere, but it hasn't gotten much traction it looks like. However, double warrior is becoming popular worldwide, mostly because you need that in order to do a dive comp against Kael'Thas, and it also works to help make a frontline to defend against dive comps on your team's own Kael'Thas. Arthas has been coming back in the meta to support this, especially in cases where one of the other four main tanks (Muradin, Johanna, Anubarak, Tyreal) are banned. Arthas' slow helps a lot against divers.
Also noticed, Uther and Rhegar often work as half-tanks in the same way that Tassadar and Tyrande are half-healers. Which means that neither of those two are going to stop being the most sought after healers for a while. Li Li, on the other hand, has been proving a pretty strong hero, even against comps that carry a hero or two to specifically counter her. By the next major tournament, we're likely to stop seeing support lock ups much at all.
Turdburger
Member
The multi-warrior stuff is born more out of the desire to just pick effective heroes than because of any playstyle reasons. Like the Korean/Chinese teams don't even pick Kael'thas much, yet will still first pick Valla or even ban her. And they're the ones who started running multi-warrior before anyone else, and the Euro/NA teams followed suit.
The assassin meta is weird this patch because there are 3 ranged assassins that are so much better than the rest (Jaina/Kael or Valla/Zag), and one melee assassin that is so much better than the rest (Zeratul). So once all of those heroes are banned out and scooped up within the first 3 picks, you're basically left with the tier 2 assassins such as Falstad or a tier 2 warrior such as Arthas/ETC/Tyrael/Anubarak and most teams prefer to pick the warrior right now.
The warrior picks offer more stable earlygame because they're beefier and have escapes and thus can resist ganks easily and the warriors generally provide some kind of battlefield control that can help protect your backline (which was your point about Kael'thas, essentially) that in the end would lead to an overall higher damage output for the team as a whole (versus picking a Tier 2 assassin).
This is also why teams are trying Nazeebo now. They realize his poke is insane and the melee assassins who would wreck him are too weak to pick or easy to ban out in the draft.
For example, I'm not surprised whatsoever that TeamLiquid lost today because eventually their desire to keeping playing last patch's meta (Illidan/TLV) was going to catch up to them and fuck them over. If they'd play multi-warrior instead of dumb specialist comps when the assassin pool runs dry they probably would not lose.
Blizzard needs to focus hard on evening out the ranged assassins by buffing the bad ones (but Jaina does need nerfed). If Tychus/Falstad/Hammer/Raynor/Tassadar were all on the same level with Jaina/Kael/Zagara, teams would pick those heroes instead of the tier 2 warriors. However if they just nerf Jaina/Kael/Zag to the level of everyone else, teams are going to continue to pick the warriors because they're just going to be better heroes.
Zeratul's Wormhole then needs nerfed (move it to 16 or something) and Jaina's Water Ele needs nerfed and then we're talking. This patch sucks.
The assassin meta is weird this patch because there are 3 ranged assassins that are so much better than the rest (Jaina/Kael or Valla/Zag), and one melee assassin that is so much better than the rest (Zeratul). So once all of those heroes are banned out and scooped up within the first 3 picks, you're basically left with the tier 2 assassins such as Falstad or a tier 2 warrior such as Arthas/ETC/Tyrael/Anubarak and most teams prefer to pick the warrior right now.
The warrior picks offer more stable earlygame because they're beefier and have escapes and thus can resist ganks easily and the warriors generally provide some kind of battlefield control that can help protect your backline (which was your point about Kael'thas, essentially) that in the end would lead to an overall higher damage output for the team as a whole (versus picking a Tier 2 assassin).
This is also why teams are trying Nazeebo now. They realize his poke is insane and the melee assassins who would wreck him are too weak to pick or easy to ban out in the draft.
For example, I'm not surprised whatsoever that TeamLiquid lost today because eventually their desire to keeping playing last patch's meta (Illidan/TLV) was going to catch up to them and fuck them over. If they'd play multi-warrior instead of dumb specialist comps when the assassin pool runs dry they probably would not lose.
Blizzard needs to focus hard on evening out the ranged assassins by buffing the bad ones (but Jaina does need nerfed). If Tychus/Falstad/Hammer/Raynor/Tassadar were all on the same level with Jaina/Kael/Zagara, teams would pick those heroes instead of the tier 2 warriors. However if they just nerf Jaina/Kael/Zag to the level of everyone else, teams are going to continue to pick the warriors because they're just going to be better heroes.
Zeratul's Wormhole then needs nerfed (move it to 16 or something) and Jaina's Water Ele needs nerfed and then we're talking. This patch sucks.
jaundicejuice
Member
I hate playing against a good Zeratul so fucking much. Good players don't let you see the shimmer until it's too late and even if you try to mitigate some of the risk by rolling with your teammates at all times, he can still blow you up and get out.
Brawndo Addict
Banned
It is ridiculous to give someone stealth and blink as part of their base kit (plus chronosphere lol), let alone the "double" blink being possible via talents.
I think you're right on the money. The only other change I think definitely should occur is a reduction in the CC time for VP, with added time if you upgrade at L20.
AbundantChoice
Member
Yeah, she can top the siege damage rankings pretty easily. Banelings are built for hitting stationary targets, and her other skills siege fantastically too.
It's funny, I enjoy sieging with Zagara and Sylvanas and Azmodan so much I almost wish there was a game mode entirely built around it.. some sort of "horde mode" variant, or reverse tower defense, or something. It obviously wouldn't work for PVP, but some PVE / vs-AI alternative that wasn't a direct analog of the normal 5v5 game mode would be very cool to see down the road.
super-famicom
Member
Remember, the hydralisk does not acquire a new target after its original target dies, so don't waste it on minions. I usually target enemy heroes that aren't Warriors. Once you get the talent to spawn two of them, you can take siege camps super fast.
Incorrect! They actually reverted it to the "bugged" version from a few patches ago in this patch - it now retargets when its target's no longer available like a good doggy.
super-famicom
Member
Whoa, they did? That's great! I guess I never noticed because I always target heroes and not minions.
Aquavelvaman
Banned
I have 24 games played on the Asia servers and I just had a quickmatch versus a team with 3 people over 1k games played. Nobody on my team had more than 200 games. Ugh.
Turdburger
Member
Zag went from like #6-8 ranged assassin to #3 in competitive just because of this change. She can cast it on minions when a pushing opportunity arises and push the fuck out of lanes even harder than before which makes her a huge experience threat between levels 1-10. If you leave her lane unchecked, or get ganked in her lane or something, you're even more fucked than before.
Maw is also an amazing control ability with all the multi-warrior garbage we're seeing lately. And she does shitloads of damage.
Giving her an early game boost with the hydra change sent her to top tier though
If your team fucks up just once and the other team has a Zag, on many maps you're going to get snowballed so hard that you have almost no chance. Tomb and Sky Temple are the obvious examples
Turdburger
Member
that really does nothing to change the problem with zeratul though. you could make VP like 1.5 seconds and he'd still be top ban priority imo. All you need is like 1 second for your team to at least position themselves and it is still ridiculously powerful but not why he gets banned out every game.
wormhole is literally solely what makes him ridiculous. getting it at level 13 is stupid. he should at least give up stoneskin/double bombs for it. the fact that he gets both is hilarious. and he gets it early enough in the game to make a huge difference on the outcome.
At least with Ignite, Kaelthas can lose the game by 16 before he gets it. Zeratul becomes the best hero in the game at lvl 13.
It's kind of hilarious that it took this long for people to realize how stupid he was, but it also took squishy glass cannon heroes being buffed or introduced to being the top ranged assassins for people to really go as far in depth with zeratul as was needed to realize this.
so, Im not one to cry OMG OP, but...Johanna is gonna be nerfed to shit right? she feels ridiculous right now 
getting a feel for hero league now, I have (have as in can play) at least 2 heroes per spot . I feel at ease with Johanna and Anub for tanks, Li Li, Rehgar and Uther for support, and dps I can go Valla/Butcher/Zagara/Sylvannas easily, but I still havent played a dps in hero because nobody picks support usually, or does and then nobody picks tank lol
edit: bot nova in hero league... why. went to middle lane, killed creep, died, respawned, rinse and repeat. and actual bot.
getting a feel for hero league now, I have (have as in can play) at least 2 heroes per spot . I feel at ease with Johanna and Anub for tanks, Li Li, Rehgar and Uther for support, and dps I can go Valla/Butcher/Zagara/Sylvannas easily, but I still havent played a dps in hero because nobody picks support usually, or does and then nobody picks tank lol
edit: bot nova in hero league... why. went to middle lane, killed creep, died, respawned, rinse and repeat. and actual bot.
Leoric starts this strat at around level 6 tho.
I probably should go play Hero League. I'm in part waiting for an announcement that the pre-season will end to light a fire under my ass, but for now... yeah. I have a few characters for each role, my only problem is that they're only characters I like, and they happen to nearly all be tier 2 or lower characters. I guess to be fair, they were considered much better back in the alpha...
first pick nova, we say "nova isnt that good in HL mate", he goes on a tirade screaming "fuck you bastards not gong to help anyone" and proceeds to afk the whole game. actually not afk, he moves around so he doesnt get booted.
in hero league. The only explantion I can muster is he is ACTUALLY a 13 year old and not just jokingly? anyway, this sunday is pretty much all stuff like that. Good times. And im stuck in this hell because I cant rank up because I keep getting this type of shit.
in hero league. The only explantion I can muster is he is ACTUALLY a 13 year old and not just jokingly? anyway, this sunday is pretty much all stuff like that. Good times. And im stuck in this hell because I cant rank up because I keep getting this type of shit.
Feels wrong to say this after my last post but... I guess, party with GAFfers?
Robottiimu2000
Member
Finally 100 wins in play mode, hearthstone card mount, my azmodan is ready to go "WEEEEEEEEEEE!"
With the right comp on the right map.
We had someone first pick Nova on Haunted Mines, a map to which she is uniquely useless in every respect. That game did *not* end well...
im sure Dota or LOL is the same, but man that feeling of a game looking to be going down the shitter early on, and you focus and instead of flaming everyone, you get your shit together and turn the game around... so fucking good.
oh and this game, the opponent had Falstad in hero league which I thought was strange, but he was really fucking good on him. Swooping in behind the group for kills, using the wind ultra to keep us from objectives and shit, I was really impressed.
edit: I keep getting Gaz on my team in HL and losing, its killing the hero for me
oh and this game, the opponent had Falstad in hero league which I thought was strange, but he was really fucking good on him. Swooping in behind the group for kills, using the wind ultra to keep us from objectives and shit, I was really impressed.
edit: I keep getting Gaz on my team in HL and losing, its killing the hero for me
I'm just more so sick of hearing everyone say she's absolutely useless. I don't play her much anymore, but don't spreading false bullshit.
So his team is 3v5 from lvl 6 onward and still wins?
I still haven't seen it in action but nothing anybody says makes it sound like it would work. Sounds exactly like bad murky play.
I popped my Hero League cherry last night, after starting out playing HotS earlier this month. Grouped with 2 others who said that no one ever plays tank in HL and that's what I like playing as so that worked out well. Went 3-0, had a lot of fun. Liked the drafting aspect of it, and overall everyone is more coordinated, I actually got decent healing and support. After the 2nd match one of the guys commented "Man it's so much fun playing with a tank that knows how to tank, I actually got to move around and DPS" so that made me feel good haha.
If what they said is true, that many don't like playing as tank in HL then I'll be more comfy since that's what I like. But I really should start to focus on a side roll too, maybe support with Uther or Rehgar hmm. I love me some melee!
If what they said is true, that many don't like playing as tank in HL then I'll be more comfy since that's what I like. But I really should start to focus on a side roll too, maybe support with Uther or Rehgar hmm. I love me some melee!
Gazlowe's also uniquely good against low-level players who don't understand how to deal with his turrets.I can only assume all these Gazs in low lvl HL is because hes so cheap to buy?
really wish people wouldnt jump into HL asap, I fucking waited months until I thought I was ready. sigh just venting
Robottiimu2000
Member
Yeah, the "ignore them or kill them ASAP" thing. They just fight in them and die repeatedly because they don't understand the mechanics.
So, what is the best way to deal with them?
Esspecially if the turrets are placed in the spot you want or even have to fight in?
Kill the turrets.
Well it was done against ZP (they still lost) but he called it cancer. It might be a joke strat in the end who knows I have only seen it once (good in quick match I guess since nobody knows how to handle it).
You're not actually going off and doing your own thing entirely until 16.
I tried it in a few QM games and it worked very well even with some obvious flaws in execution. A couple points:
It's extremely difficult for a group of 5 people not all queuing together to organize a counter-strategy, especially if they go in unprepared. You have maybe twenty seconds to react once Leoric starts. Don't do anything and you're definitely losing a keep in under a minute. If one or two heroes are anywhere near where he is they're going to be really tempted to just go kill him. If necessary he can just walk/hearth away as a ghost and be around for a fight on his team's side of the map about as quickly as anyone who killed him can be. I don't think I ever saw 5 people actually just try to push against it; they grouped as five only for some map objectives, and it was easy for Leoric to come back and help with those. Some maps work better than others. Cursed Hollow is likely best since the objectives can be completely unimportant for a very long time. Dragon Shire is a tough one because 3 people can't contest the objectives against 5 and capturing both shrines and the Knight is very quick. Haunted Mines worked out pretty well in part because Leoric is great on that map early, but also it's easy for 3 people to get a decent number of skulls if they're not trying to engage (especially if you've got a disposable hero like Murky).
Leoric does damage a lot more quickly than Murky. Murky can't sustain hits from a keep or towers, so his solo/aba pushing involves him using his abilities and bubbling (during this he's not attacking). At best you get fish/slime and Abathur damage on buildings, and Murky can only be close to the buildings for a few seconds outside of his bubble. This also means that there's little point to having someone try to stop Murky from doing this, since he spends so much of his uptime invulnerable anyway. If you don't try to stop Leoric he can take down a keep in (I'm pretty sure) one life, just continuously whacking away at it. He hits harder, can sit around the keep constantly, and has much better real uptime (actual time spent in the vicinity of a keep doing damage) than Murky unless the other team actively defends.
Most likely. Still a 3 man team with aba support (he can still support his team in downtime) can defend a spot pretty nicely against 5 players and aba soaks one lane worth of exp as well.
But as long as the strat doesn't work in competetive pro level play I don't really care.
well i'm at home, and I watched a replay of ZP's stream, and yea he respawns really really fast, and he does do a lot of damage to the forts even while only living for like 5 to 10 seconds. he's forcing 4 to 5 people on the enemy team to stay in their base while leoric's team just continues to get all the merc camps and gather 200 seeds during night phase. After actually seeing it, yea I think they'll do something about it. But I still think the answer is to take all the mercs and objectives, counter push, and win faster.
and surprise surprise, nerfing abathur's bombard strain didn't actually solve the problem of back dooring. they should have added back door protection instead. Now Leoric's gonna get nerfed even though he's not that great to begin with, and someone will just find a new method of breaking the game 3 to 4 months from now anyway, again.
and surprise surprise, nerfing abathur's bombard strain didn't actually solve the problem of back dooring. they should have added back door protection instead. Now Leoric's gonna get nerfed even though he's not that great to begin with, and someone will just find a new method of breaking the game 3 to 4 months from now anyway, again.
all you have to do is mule whatever he's hitting
if you don't have mule, kill him, go do something, kill him again when he's up
just pushing as 5 is not a bad idea in theory, but if you get caught out somehow you will lose
like any siege cheese strat, if you don't take advantage of your lead you will lose because the other team is being proactive and you aren't
if you don't have mule, kill him, go do something, kill him again when he's up
just pushing as 5 is not a bad idea in theory, but if you get caught out somehow you will lose
like any siege cheese strat, if you don't take advantage of your lead you will lose because the other team is being proactive and you aren't
here's the video i watched: http://www.twitch.tv/zp_tv/v/8446133
he respawns rediculously fast. starts at 1:30
These are very bad answers. Mule isn't fast enough to make a huge difference. I saw this work even while a Tassadar with Mule was babysitting the keeps. It helps a lot with the Core itself, but when the Leoric is solo pushing your Core you're already in big trouble. The problem with trying to kill him and then go do something else is that you don't have time to go do something else before he needs to be killed again.
oo i just checked the vid out, i thought you guys were talking about a suicidy early game leoric/aba siege, I actually haven't played against that
the ppl i played against camped out on some keeps post-lvl 10 but leoric wasnt respawning that quickly either
im looking at two games here and he's doing it with a lead every time too
the ppl i played against camped out on some keeps post-lvl 10 but leoric wasnt respawning that quickly either
im looking at two games here and he's doing it with a lead every time too
well i can see it being a problem as a win button after certain conditions are met, kind of like a kael ignite thing, plus he's not a weak hero or anything, it does seem like something that should be addressed from a cursory look. the leoric/aba i played against were never ahead, and he also didn't take consume vitality for quick respawns. actually seeing it done def changes my mind on it, tho I don't really understand what role aba is playing here really besides helping leoric siege harder
aba brings the improved attack and move speed + heal from spike burst. and I think the biggest contributor to the fast respawns is the 30+ stacks of regen master.
Yeah it's just that the things he gives here seem unnecesary if the issue at hand is unmanagable respawn and high siege dmg, like there's great synergy but it kind of seems that leoric just can sit down once his respawn timer is at a certain point.
Quick fix would be a cd on his passive i guess, but i guess we'll see if it is actually an issue first.
I still havent seen siege cheese on the level of old azmo/aba promote tho
Quick fix would be a cd on his passive i guess, but i guess we'll see if it is actually an issue first.
I still havent seen siege cheese on the level of old azmo/aba promote tho
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