It really doesnt. A match doesnt last long enough for it to be worth considering. The simple option of it being there would lead to surrender spam and afks otherwise winnable games.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK
- Thread starter Nirolak
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It really doesnt. A match doesnt last long enough for it to be worth considering. The simple option of it being there would lead to surrender spam and afks otherwise winnable games.
Robottiimu2000
Member
My first game of "Abathur it's your fault we lost"... "ABA DO THIS!" " ABA DO THAT!"..
The Raynor even gave me ironic "Thanks for help aba" when he died while I was dead...
I don't mean I'm the best aba player or even a good one in general, but still.. the last game included my aba winrate is 66,7%... I tried suggesting sticking together as that usually wins fights later in the game, but that seemed too much to ask.. as I wasn't assisting everyone who chose to solo around the map... oh dear.
Edit: i have to add we were winning the game on curse map, even with both teams had had one curse they had one keep left and we lost only one fort.. We were leading levels until level 20 and we started to lose.. Perhaps the opposing teams Kaels got his shit together... Perhaps our team got cocky, but all I can say.. They lost a pretty good game from me.. As I gave them all the keys to victory..
The Raynor even gave me ironic "Thanks for help aba" when he died while I was dead...
I don't mean I'm the best aba player or even a good one in general, but still.. the last game included my aba winrate is 66,7%... I tried suggesting sticking together as that usually wins fights later in the game, but that seemed too much to ask.. as I wasn't assisting everyone who chose to solo around the map... oh dear.
Edit: i have to add we were winning the game on curse map, even with both teams had had one curse they had one keep left and we lost only one fort.. We were leading levels until level 20 and we started to lose.. Perhaps the opposing teams Kaels got his shit together... Perhaps our team got cocky, but all I can say.. They lost a pretty good game from me.. As I gave them all the keys to victory..
I aint saying thats fun, but I heavily believe that giving the option to forfeit to people would be even worst. Team wipe early game? GG forfeit. Falstad mess up a play? GG forfeit. Heck, even I would have forfeited games (can think of 2 yesterday) and yet my team still won them.
Giving the option would be a heavy contributor to toxicity in a game that doesnt need it. AFK doesnt happen every damn match, but you could be sure a surrender vote would.
Orochinagis
Member
Watched the incoming skins and chars
So much WoW skins on non WoW characters, also did I saw the WoW's staff forest on the monk trailer?
So much WoW skins on non WoW characters, also did I saw the WoW's staff forest on the monk trailer?
Monk's alt skin is Chinese-inspired, which is also the basis for WoW's pandas. Not a surprise that there's overlap.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
If we are being real here, practically anything can be linked back to one of their franchises and Warcraft is the most all-encompassing
Orochinagis
Member
I think the fist weapon is a drop in Pandaria and the pandaren praise the jade dragon mostly than the others, migh be wrong anyway.
the rest of the skins like thrall, rexxar, hammer and Uther are wow inspired.
The Angel Diablo was pretty dull and predictable for me
Because just like other games with a surrender option, the first moment it's available and you lose a team fight or objective, one or two asshats will most definitely do what you said - queue up surrender and then instead of continuing to play as they would now they will definitely AFK in base - and we'll go from having a decent comeback rate across all levels of play in HOTS to a spot where there will be no more comebacks and things will get more toxic at the first sign of trouble, not less.
The game does not need surrender. It's 15-25 minutes in most every scenario. Most games you aren't even 3-4 minutes in before the first significant team fight due to the way objectives work, so we'd have people ready to quit immediately without understand early game comps, gank gomps, late game comps, etc. That's not even mentioning the random ass comps we get in QM and how quickly people would just give up. You think it's bad now? LOL! It'd be terrible.
The game could use some form of leaver forgiveness for when someone DOES AFK and get replaced with a bot or someone gets disconnected for at least 3-5 minutes as probably 98% of those games are over once the bot comes in. You shouldn't lose rank in hero league because someone dc'd, and you shouldn't be forced to sit around for 10 minutes as either the winning side or losing side when someone peaces out or their ISP does and a bot takes over.
TL;DR - Surrender is bad. Removal of penalties for folks leaving when an actual disconnect occurs after a certain time threshold is good.
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
do the AIs use that elite AI option?
powerdrain
Member
Right? I think surrender at 20, possibly 15 wouldn't be too terrible since most games are 20-25 mins. It's not as much of a commitment starting a HOTS game as it is a LoL one but there are those stompy times when you've obviously been matched with people who are leagues above you (in more ways than one) and it just doesn't become fun, especially if you have people who've given up as well or lost any morale.
You can always try and fight the power and try and get better but sometimes it's just best to surrender and move onto the next game. I try not to do this myself, even in LoL, I'll try and support my team and try my best to take the lead or offer encouragement, so it's usually a good idea to try and keep at it but sometimes I do just want to surrender if we're all being wrecked.
I've found my experience with this game a lot more toxic than LoL though, and lately have a lot of people congratulating me when I play Nova but I'm pretty sure they're being sarcastic since it's when I've killed someone then been countered immediately after, or couldn't save them from being killed themselves before getting their killer down. Also, lots of people just typing dotdotdot if I do something slightly stupid or get focused.
Not sure if the aforementioned people are all being sarcastic and some are genuine, but Jeez, I'm sick of all the passive aggressiveness, at least when I've had LoL venom it's been unapologetic and to the point. These kids need to grow up and stop blaming others for their mistakes. Friendliness or helping teammates learn from their mistakes by giving advice goes a long way.
I mute so many people I might just turn off Allied Chat at this point.
But the mute button is magical.
I'd say muting is better than getting rid of the entire chat. Some times people are cool, so it's not worth turning it off.
It's odd though, I genuinely don't see much toxicity in HotS compared to other MOBA's I've played(Namely Smite and DoTA/Dota2). Never played LoL, but I've really not heard good things at all.
As for a surrender button, I don't agree with adding one. The games don't go on for long enough, not to mention games can be turned around with good play. It would just give people more incentive on giving up. They should allow you to freely leave if someone has already left the game for an extended period(maybe like how abandoning works on Dota) mind you.
It's odd though, I genuinely don't see much toxicity in HotS compared to other MOBA's I've played(Namely Smite and DoTA/Dota2). Never played LoL, but I've really not heard good things at all.
As for a surrender button, I don't agree with adding one. The games don't go on for long enough, not to mention games can be turned around with good play. It would just give people more incentive on giving up. They should allow you to freely leave if someone has already left the game for an extended period(maybe like how abandoning works on Dota) mind you.
I remember now why I said I wouldn't do solo QM this week.
Get a truly toxic Abathur, who is of course utterly useless and picks bizarre and terrible talents. He rants at us for losing constantly (their team comp was insanely better than ours), and then disconnects half way through. Yay.
Afterwards I look at Hotslogs, and apparently the teams were fairly equally balanced according to MMr. Quickly digging reveals a *slight* difference though. Our team's player with 3100 MMR (the awful Abathur) has a total of 19 games played. The enemy team 3100 player has over 1000 games played.
Anyone saying we should stop complaining about the matchmaker needs their head examining. The system they are using is utterly flawed from start to finish, results in terrible, unfun experiences a lot of the time, and the fact that Blizzard don't seem to understand what's going on or know how to fix it is infuriating.
Get a truly toxic Abathur, who is of course utterly useless and picks bizarre and terrible talents. He rants at us for losing constantly (their team comp was insanely better than ours), and then disconnects half way through. Yay.
Afterwards I look at Hotslogs, and apparently the teams were fairly equally balanced according to MMr. Quickly digging reveals a *slight* difference though. Our team's player with 3100 MMR (the awful Abathur) has a total of 19 games played. The enemy team 3100 player has over 1000 games played.
Anyone saying we should stop complaining about the matchmaker needs their head examining. The system they are using is utterly flawed from start to finish, results in terrible, unfun experiences a lot of the time, and the fact that Blizzard don't seem to understand what's going on or know how to fix it is infuriating.
Complain? Sure. It definitely needs work.
Some of the time? Definitely. 25% of the time? Maybe, and certainly more so further down the ladder but there you also delve into whether it's a skill issue, an understanding issue, or a matchmaking issue or some combination thereof. "A lot of the time", though? To me that implies much greater than 50% and that is quite the exaggeration.
Add in that we remember the bad and recount them in threads and reddit far more than the good and you get "a lot of the time".
All that besides the fact that whether he played 19 games or 1000 probably had little bearing on how toxic he may or may not be.
Of course they will. NeoGAF is the prime example of that. Game comes out, thread heaps praises for a few days, generally turns into shitfest because of some minor or major complaint that overrides all the other good vibes. The most recent examples of this for me were Splatoon and Rocket League. 100% fanfare to start, devolved into threadshitting for a bit, then the threadshitters left and it evened out. Same thing with every game, every movie, every piece of music...it's the internet.
You can't stop it. Nothing Blizzard can do will stop it.
It needs work, I don't think anyone disagrees on that. But thinking this shit will magically go away after they do a few more fixes is naive. The complaints and qq about bad games or bad teammates is an eternal thing for online gaming, particularly a game like HOTS that is so stringently team based.
If you go in looking for a bad time, you're gonna have one. If you go in with an open mind, you can overcome most anything in this game the majority of the time - whether that be matchmaking, trolling, or a huge deficit. The only thing you can't overcome is AFKing/disconnecting and I'd still rather see work on that more than anything.
You can't stop it. Nothing Blizzard can do will stop it.
It needs work, I don't think anyone disagrees on that. But thinking this shit will magically go away after they do a few more fixes is naive. The complaints and qq about bad games or bad teammates is an eternal thing for online gaming, particularly a game like HOTS that is so stringently team based.
If you go in looking for a bad time, you're gonna have one. If you go in with an open mind, you can overcome most anything in this game the majority of the time - whether that be matchmaking, trolling, or a huge deficit. The only thing you can't overcome is AFKing/disconnecting and I'd still rather see work on that more than anything.
I mean, I actively don't play many real games right now because solo Queue in that is absolutely miserable and I don't often have the ability to queue up with others to queue up to make it tolerable.
I'm not looking for a bad time. I'm being given it because the extreme variance in skill levels creates far too many non-games. These aren't normal matchmaking complaints- they are occurring because they are not segregating their playerbase forcefully enough because they're afraid of hurting people's feelings, even though countless other MOBAs have shown that it won't do that.
jaundicejuice
Member
I think adding a commendation system like Dota 2's would do wonders for HotS--Friendly, Leadership, Forgiving or Teaching/Coaching. Even the random 'rate this player' dialogue pop up at the end of the match that asks if you would like to play with them again and even if you would like to add them as friends. Since that isn't in the game (yet) nor is it some metric for matchmaking, that's something players have to cultivate.
That's the thing with games that rely on match-making versus servers and server lists, it's harder to get a sense of community or find like minded players in games like Dota, LoL and HotS. In CS or TF2 you kind find servers that you like, with challenge levels you enjoy, moderation that you like, you start adding the regs on those servers to your friendlists.
That's what you have to do in these games, actively cultivate a group of players who you enjoy playing with, who are playing at the same casual or competitive level.
That's the thing with games that rely on match-making versus servers and server lists, it's harder to get a sense of community or find like minded players in games like Dota, LoL and HotS. In CS or TF2 you kind find servers that you like, with challenge levels you enjoy, moderation that you like, you start adding the regs on those servers to your friendlists.
That's what you have to do in these games, actively cultivate a group of players who you enjoy playing with, who are playing at the same casual or competitive level.
He's best in the jester outfit.
I do dailies most days almost exclusively solo que and hardly ever have many issues with massive skill disparities or blatant AFKing/BMing.
I'm of the mind that when people lose they look for a reason, open the stats tab and find easy targets.
Honestly the matchmaking is no better or worse then dota
I'm of the mind that when people lose they look for a reason, open the stats tab and find easy targets.
Honestly the matchmaking is no better or worse then dota
TharpDaddy
Member
Finally got 10k coins and bought Kael'thas since he's one of my favorite Warcraft characters. Holy snap he's fun! You can blow people up so quickly.
The new rules they implemented did not go into effect for Hero League. Only QM.
When you are getting extreme disparities in skill because it's "averaging" two players on polar opposite sides of the skill spectrum, it is a huge issue.
The solution is to slice up the MMR ranges for ranked play- QM will always be there for the "I WANT A GAME NAO" need. But they're refusing to do so.
TharpDaddy
Member
Oh, that's a bummer. I don't play ranked or anything though so he'll probably still be fine to play.
I understand that. And that is the experience some have, but it's not the experience all of us have or this thread and reddit would be covered in these complaints just like it was gold gain complaints in Alpha.
I don't know where you are on the ladder, but I do know for a while you said you were on the lower end of HL just like I am on my main account and the matches and people you were paired and I get paired with reflect what you're saying and yes it does suck mightily which is why I have smurf accounts. It's precisely why I don't hero league on Keyes.
To me, that is 80% or more of the matchmaking complaints. "I think I'm better than this, but my MMR says I'm not so I'm constantly paired with people who to me are idiots and then I go on tilt and the cycle repeats itself".
The matches like Maledict wrote about are much fewer and more far between in my experience across 2k to 3k games (what you're calling extreme variance in skill level). Sure I'll check hotslogs and have the occasional game that's way out of line. I had one yesterday in HL on my Alur account where I'm ~3400 and we had a 1900 Johanna on our team. We still won but it was obvious they were from a different bracket. I get salty about it, queue up again and get a better game or a win and forget about it. Not everyone does so, obviously.
As I've said numerous times, I typically see 200-300 MMR difference in skill maximum in my games based on hotdogs. During the launch it got really out of line, but it's mostly evened out from my perspective and games now.
The biggest issue in matchmaking remains that you can't account for a person's skill from hero to hero and IMO it results in the majority of these problems. I don't see any way to fix that so I don't see how the issue can be alleviated.
This is the biggest thing. Have a good game? Add someone who was friendly or helpful. Play with them. See if they really are good. If not, unfriend and keep it moving. It won't take long to have a few friends you can call on.
This is exactly how everyone who was in Alpha met anyone. The community was smaller, sure, but we networked like a motherfucker. Games like this aren't meant to be played solo.
I feel the same the vast majority of the time. I know I've done it and still do from time to time. Friends I've played with have done it. It's an easy out to blame someone or everyone else.
It is indeed an issue. But generally when you have a 2100 shitter on your team, the other team also has a 1900-2200 shitter on their team. Honestly, until you are 3k+ the MMR skillgap is not huge. There's a definite difference between a 2800 player and a 2100 player sure, but the difference between a 3500 player and a 3100 player is often massive.
Enjoy ignite while you still can. It's super effective.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Or you could look at the replay and observe the hundreds of idiotic decisions and misplays through the entire match to factually verify that your entire team was shit.
As I said yesterday, 100% no lie. No mistakes. No misplays.
You've posted in the past how during laning phase you will just stop trying to help other lanes because you get frustrated at some little thing they do like not showing up for first objective. I know that every game I lose definitely isn't on someone else. I know that every game I watch on Twitch isn't on one specific players decisions or lack thereof. It's an amalgamation of things. I find it hard to believe every game you lose is on someone else. You can feel free to prove me wrong if you're batting like 4k MMR, but I'd guess like most of us you're more towards half of that.
I was continuously bouncing around the '20s (home of average MMR and all the new players) before I just gave up on it until they changed it up. At least with the soft reset I know I need to try and leverage those initial games as hard as possible.
I climbed out of the MMR hell I had put myself in by solo-carrying games with TLV, and it worked. But it stopped working effectively once I hit the middle ranks- but not because the strategy didn't work. (I was still getting ridiculous amounts of EXP soak that was getting 2+ levels of extra EXP.) The difference (imo) was the player skill no longer being reflected in MMR because I was in the mid-range, home to all the new players just starting out. Because of this, the mid-range has mismatches all over the place, and a single terrible player (who the system doesn't know is terrible) can just trainwreck a 2 level lead on their own.
I can go through my MMR history and pick out each and every game I won or lost that contained one of these players, because they are without fail the ones where I gain or lose 30 points in the system. And they pick up each time I hit that magical 1500-1700 range, running me into a random minefield where how I actually play isn't meaningfully contributing to either my wins or losses because of the extreme skill gaps.
I've had both, myself. On Keyes I stalled at rank 27 because when were doing 5 mans we continued to lose 60% or more right as it launched, so when we started playing serious I had wasted all but the last 10 or so games I could get skill bonus from. When I check hotdogs I'm in Gold around 1900-1950 and the games I solo almost always include someone new.
When I got rank 1 on my other account, I sailed all the way up to rank 5/6 with skill bonus despite only having 3 more wins than losses at one point. Didn't have much trouble in the 20's but did seesaw a bit in the 10-20 range and again at rank 5. When I was in the 20's my MMR was over 3k likely due to the win streak so I was being placed with people rank 5+ mainly so it helped a lot as my actual "true" MMR across most accounts is about 2900 so in effect I was often the "worst" person on the team which is almost always a favorable outcome if you know what to do with the hero you have.
Now, on my 3rd account I'm 18-8 and I went from rank 31 to rank 19 yesterday in 5 games due to the huge skill bonus. The MMR on that account is 3400 and every game is with rank 5+ people or others like me who are high MMR but whom haven't reached rank 1.
If I really detested anything about Hero League on the same level some detest the general matchmaking it's the fact that you are penalized so heavily for a bad early streak. It can mean the difference between you getting skill bonus to rank 5, skill bonus to rank 15, or skill bonus to rank 25 based on how those first few matches go. And I honestly don't see it getting much better with the reset because it's keeping the MMR you already have baked in. About the only difference is that they are going to smooth out the point gains.
As for this, sure, I can go back and do the same. I just don't see it that often but as I said other than that one specific scenario - my main account's HL MMR - my MMR on every account is beyond that catch-point so I've escaped it.
If you are stuck in an area where it's bringing in those 1700's, that does suck, but how do you fix it? Do you separate off all 1700's til they find their base starting MMR/rank and risk people like me smurfing and coasting on them and other more seasoned players pubstomping them if they are truly new/bad, or do you salt them in now and only the people caught in that range have to deal with them because starting out technically they are also in that range.
I don't know what the good solution is there, but I do agree in that specific scenario you and I both experienced it is like an anvil on your will to play and your MMR/rank.
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
Yes, you are indeed still completely misinterpreting my statement to the farthest extreme possible. I am not talking about every single game I play, or every single loss. There are times I lose and I think we even all did really well but were simply outplayed. The things I'm talking about are really, really bad stomping where the team completely sucked. As in, the times when the bad matchmaking system shows the worst.
More like the first 3 objectives, and all while making no progress in pushing their lanes despite having zero competition because the other team is doing objective. Again, you're misinterpreting both the situations I am describing to try and make my apathy toward apathetic teams seem completely unreasonable. When it comes to giving up on teams (this is a separate issue from the original one) I am by no means talking about teams that seem to give a shit and simply do not know how to do it right.
This, particularly the bolded, is completely ridiculous to me. An amalgamation of what? The decisions of every team member as a whole as well as the enemy team. Yes, that does mean being simply outplayed is a possibility, but if your team is completely stomped, it is most-likely because the whole team is making terrible decisions. How could it not be? What other outside factors could possibly be coming into play so that it is no one's fault?
Not one person, many people altogether. And again, I am talking about a specific type of loss, not every single loss. There are times where I do have bad plays, but in games where they are destroying everyone because they keep running headlong into 5v1s one at a time only after they have been attacking a gate for 20 seconds? There are no advanced strategies or tricks or room for confusion there. As I said before, it is not hard for me to predict what the enemy team will do or what a good response to it is when it is so straightforward. Nor are the mistakes of my team mixed up with many factors to consider where it could have been a legitimately confusing situation.
Also, I'm not sure if I am misreading you here, but it seems like you're putting the blame for every loss on yourself. That is every bit as ridiculous as always trying to blame it on someone else. This is a team game and your team does have a massive impact on what you have to work with and how far it is possible to take it. No level of self-correction can pull out miracles that make up for an entire shit team. Maybe you are at a level of play in your MMR where these kind of teams simply never happen, but I can assure you it does happen in the world of HOTS.
Nerf? Uh, no. He's becoming more beastly throughout the entire game. If anything I'd call it a buff.
king grimlock
Member
Ok so I'm not high on medication now so I can ask some questions I have, and I apologize if these have been covered or are just plain obvious.
1. What's stopping blizzard from releasing a hero that is just flat out better than others in an attempt to grab some sales, and patch it later to be more equal to others?
2. I could be wrong but I think I read blizzard is planning a LOT of heroes, and surely with some of these heroes eventually you run out of viable unique play styles and overlapping occurs. When/if this happens what will they do, just phase out heroes? I don't see a point in having one hero extremely better than another at a particular role or two heroes be about the same.
3. Is my boy and Blizz's best character Arthas really as meh right now as my game time and observing of discussions suggest?
4. Why doesn't Uther have a line about him picking up green orbs?
1. What's stopping blizzard from releasing a hero that is just flat out better than others in an attempt to grab some sales, and patch it later to be more equal to others?
2. I could be wrong but I think I read blizzard is planning a LOT of heroes, and surely with some of these heroes eventually you run out of viable unique play styles and overlapping occurs. When/if this happens what will they do, just phase out heroes? I don't see a point in having one hero extremely better than another at a particular role or two heroes be about the same.
3. Is my boy and Blizz's best character Arthas really as meh right now as my game time and observing of discussions suggest?
4. Why doesn't Uther have a line about him picking up green orbs?
1. Nothing. This already happens, and is standard practice for the genre- almost all characters come out overtuned and get toned down. (Some, like Jaina, get turned OP a patch or two later!)
2.. Nope, no rotation. A deeper pool = more diversity in games.
3. Arthas is ok, but he's context-sensitive in a way someone like Muradin or Johanna isn't.
2.. Nope, no rotation. A deeper pool = more diversity in games.
3. Arthas is ok, but he's context-sensitive in a way someone like Muradin or Johanna isn't.
I play a decent amount of hero league and don't really notice it there either.
king grimlock
Member
Oh absolutely, I was just wondering when/if the roster gets big enough and their really isn't much new that can be added what would happen.
Thanks for your answers.
Hearthstone is the game where this is going to become a serious concern. TCG models end up needing to rotate in order to keep the games new-player friendly.
TharpDaddy
Member
For what it's worth, Dota and League of Legends both have a large amount of champions/heroes and a large amount of them remain viable. There will always be strong picks compared to others but there are a large amount of mechanics you can implement to make characters unique.
TharpDaddy
Member
I'm happy to play some games sometime, I've been playing more lately (though i'm not very good!)
Tharp#1456
It is. Quote the OP for a link to a Google doc with a pretty good list of battletags for both NA or EU. Lots of the newer additions even have their playtimes and what they play.
Orochinagis
Member
Chose nova, got paired with zeratul, anubarak, hammer and abathur, destroyed cuz enemy got a healer and a diverse group
Chose abathur got paired with zeratul, nova, murky and kaelthas, destroyed again due lack of healers but the enemy group have two
Chose Zagara, got paired zeratul, tassadar, hammer and murky, again, no healer in sight but the enemy team does, again
Chose abathur got paired with zeratul, nova, murky and kaelthas, destroyed again due lack of healers but the enemy group have two
Chose Zagara, got paired zeratul, tassadar, hammer and murky, again, no healer in sight but the enemy team does, again
You had no healer and your enemy had one twice? Were you running a 5 man? They took that out of the game like 2 months ago now. I haven't even seen a complaint about it in forever.
Tass is a "healer".
But having borked compositions in QM is happening to me as well. This week I had a three warriors 2 specialists team (and I was only duoing), and then 3 assassins 2 specialists vs 2 warriors 1 healer 2 assassins.
I wept and wowed never to take QM seriously again.
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