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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK

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Z

Zafir

Member
It's probably based off LoL really, since I'd imagine a lot of people playing HotS came from there. I've never played, I just know that it also uses the Bronze/Silver/Gold/Plat/Diamond/Master tiers.

It just puts a name to a number as I said before. Just having a mmr value doesn't tell you anything without context into the matter. 4k wouldn't even exist in WoW's Arena mmr system as far as I'm aware, highest used to be 3kish(might have changed, not played in ages). However, it's considered above average in Dota 2, but not the best. Hotslog also displays a mmr too if you just wanted to go by mmr alone. I don't think hotslogs system is bad in that sense, it offers the best of both worlds, the bad part is more that the mmr isn't totally accurate due to not having all of the match data available.

The in game system for HotS is really awful though. Rank hasn't meant anything at all for a long time and it's clear it doesn't coincide with the internal mmr. That definitely is just pointlessly obscuring peoples real skill levels.
 
R

Rizzi

Member
Tyrande players that decide "Oh no I'm not going to play support at all, I want to be a ranged assassin" kind of piss me off.
 
S

Syf

Banned
hotslogs is based on SC2's system. LoL has different names for the leagues (master = challenger), the artwork hotslogs uses for the leagues is straight from SC2, and the percentages work almost exactly like SC2's.
 
A

Alur

Member
AndyH said:
I don't know about there being big issues with raising your MMR right now. I've went from 3k to 3.2k MMR on that hot logs in a day. Even if there is someone dumb on my team it's still fairly easy to win most of the time. I use the ping system extensively and try to direct my team to do the correct plays. A few years ago, I might have raged at terrible players but now I just laugh. I don't say anything in chat though, as that's an easy way to lose a game.
Click to expand...

I didn't say it was difficult to raise your MMR across the board, I said it was difficult if by game 100-200 you were still in Bronze/Silver/Gold to ever get out without a lot of hard work and persistence due to the increase in variables at that level that we see much less at higher levels (namely AFKing and toxicity, but also much more unskilled or clueless play).

You saying you moved up in MMR quickly in the 3k range just reinforces that point. As my other post indicated, you're firmly in the sweet spot with myself and others where most games are at the least bearable and winnable the majority of the time. That's not the case at the average/starting MMR.

You are also leaving out a bit of context for us, as well. To go up 200 points in MMR on hotdogs in one day as a regular player and uploader who has more than 200 games uploaded you'd need roughly ~18-20 wins with no losses in that one day as the average gain is about 10 points (6-14 typically, with occasional outlier). However, if you're in your first 20, or 50, or even 200 games the hotdogs MMR point gain is much more massive and would literally only take a handful of wins more than losses to move forward rapidly. Once the system finds your spot, though, you have to start winning at a good clip to move anywhere no matter your bracket. 200 points in a day definitely isn't normal/typical movement unless you were in placement or you play 25-40 games a day like Yoshi.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Maledict said:
Virtus Pro just unveiled a team comp built around Rehghar. It was glorious, and they utterly wrecked Navi with it - they annihilated the core at level 16 so fast it wasn't true.

Their Tyrande took damage talents at every level, including the attack spee don hunters mark at 13 and seasoned marksman at level 1. Zeratul took Assassins Blade at 13 rather than wormhole, and rehghar took the chain heal talents at 1 and 4, his special battle momentum at 7 to just *spam* chain heal.
Click to expand...
What stream was this on?
 
K

Ketch

Member
watched some chu8 stream. 11 points for a win -175 for a loss. You gotta have a win rate of 17:1 to go up in the ladder.
 
A

Alur

Member
Yep. Pretty insane. That's the exact thing ZPs made the thread about.

But remember, Random_redditor_2891 said they aren't skilled enough to be rank 1.

giphy.gif
 
M

Maledict

Member
Alur said:
<3 BOB?.

Would love to see them win this outright. Doubt it, but would love to see it.
Click to expand...

That Tyrael boss steal is going to make waves, you can guarantee it. They've been playing Tyrael every single game without fail, and I don't think anyone was expecting that to happen in the bottom lane. I honestly thought they were throwing it...

And yes, I like Bob. Bakery is such a nice guy on THH, and Snitches was fun as well.
 
A

Alur

Member
Yep I really like Bakery. Always thought adrd was one of the best players in the game as he's one of the few EU players I knew by name a few months back, and loved Snitches trolling Zoia on that one THH. It was so awkward and uncomfortable.
 
K

Ketch

Member
aka_bueno said:
Is that based on the collective team's hidden MMR?
Click to expand...

I have no idea. I just saw that he had won like 7 in a row, got 11 points for his last win, was only 30 points away from rank one. and then he lost one match on dk shrine and went down 173 points and was the beginning of rank 2 again.

But! I will say the match he lost was really close.... so maybe working as intended?
 
A

AndyH

Neo Member
Alur said:
I didn't say it was difficult to raise your MMR across the board, I said it was difficult if by game 100-200 you were still in Bronze/Silver/Gold to ever get out without a lot of hard work and persistence due to the increase in variables at that level that we see much less at higher levels (namely AFKing and toxicity, but also much more unskilled or clueless play).

You saying you moved up in MMR quickly in the 3k range just reinforces that point. As my other post indicated, you're firmly in the sweet spot with myself and others where most games are at the least bearable and winnable the majority of the time. That's not the case at the average/starting MMR.

You are also leaving out a bit of context for us, as well. To go up 200 points in MMR on hotdogs in one day as a regular player and uploader who has more than 200 games uploaded you'd need roughly ~18-20 wins with no losses in that one day as the average gain is about 10 points (6-14 typically, with occasional outlier). However, if you're in your first 20, or 50, or even 200 games the hotdogs MMR point gain is much more massive and would literally only take a handful of wins more than losses to move forward rapidly. Once the system finds your spot, though, you have to start winning at a good clip to move anywhere no matter your bracket. 200 points in a day definitely isn't normal/typical movement unless you were in placement or you play 25-40 games a day like Yoshi.
Click to expand...

If by game 100-200 you are still in those brackets you probably deserve to be there, unless you were incredibly unlucky. You are right that there are lower levels of play at those brackets. I played with a friend who had just made an account and got to see it first hand. It was so easy to punish them we might as well have been playing against beginner bots. You are the consistent variable in all of your matches. You have 4 other people on your team. The enemy has 5. This means they have a higher chance of being shit - assuming you are decent yourself.

I'm only on game 85 but I'm continuing to rise through the 3k range. The level of play has been increasing the entire time.

I'm sure once the system finds my spot it will be much harder to raise my MMR.
 
K

kirblar

Member
AndyH said:
If by game 100-200 you are still in those brackets you probably deserve to be there, unless you were incredibly unlucky. You are right that there are lower levels of play at those brackets. I played with a friend who had just made an account and got to see it first hand. It was so easy to punish them we might as well have been playing against beginner bots. You are the consistent variable in all of your matches. You have 4 other people on your team. The enemy has 5. This means they have a higher chance of being shit - assuming you are decent yourself.

I'm only on game 85 but I'm continuing to rise through the 3k range. The level of play has been increasing the entire time.

I'm sure once the system finds my spot it will be much harder to raise my MMR.
Click to expand...
Congratulations, you were getting artifically easier opponents because you essentially had a smurf account and managed to quickly level up because of it using the initial placement games to catapult your MMR sky high.

IF this happens, you end up fine. The problem is what happens if you get bad games to start off- it puts you in a hole that's nearly inescapable without a stack because of how fucked up the matchmaking is in the midrange.

It's amazing to me that people lke you, who've barely played the game, immediately jump in to defend the status quo. Why is that? Is it to difficult for you to trust that people who have more experience with the game might know better? Is it status quo bias? Just world fallacy? Or simply just an inability to be more than a toxic commentator eager to crap all over other people's experiences in order to make themselves feel better.
 
A

AndyH

Neo Member
kirblar said:
Congratulations, you were getting artifically easier opponents because you essentially had a smurf account and managed to quickly level up because of it using the initial placement games to catapult your MMR sky high.

IF this happens, you end up fine. The problem is what happens if you get bad games to start off- it puts you in a hole that's nearly inescapable without a stack because of how fucked up the matchmaking is in the midrange.
Click to expand...

Except the part where I soloed the majority of my games, including the initial games. Everyone is in mmr hell in every moba. If you are better at the game than the people around you, you will rise.
 
K

kirblar

Member
AndyH said:
Except the part where I soloed the majority of my games, including the initial games. Everyone is in mmr hell in every moba. If you are better at the game than the people around you, you will rise.
Click to expand...
Not when you exhaust your placement games and have to go through the nightmare pit that surrounds the average MMR because of the placement matches combo'd with the terrible matchmaking.

This game does not behave like League and other games, where the best player can carry weak players. The mechanics make it so that if you have one bad, shitty player who shouldn't be where he is, that player can and will singlehandedly fuck your entire team over.

You actually know nothing here, because you're relying on this experience with other MOBAs to guide your thinking, when that experience is completely irrelevant.
 
A

AndyH

Neo Member
kirblar said:
Not when you exhaust your placement games and have to go through the nightmare pit that surrounds the average MMR because of the placement matches combo'd with the terrible matchmaking.

This game does not behave like League and other games, where the best player can carry weak players. The mechanics make it so that if you have one bad, shitty player who shouldn't be where he is, that player can and will singlehandedly fuck your entire team over.

You actually know nothing here, because you're relying on this experience with other MOBAs to guide your thinking, when that experience is completely irrelevant.
Click to expand...

Top players in other mobas are top players here from looking at the twitch streams. I know exactly that one shit player can be too heavy to carry. I've experienced those matches. Your enemy team will have a higher chance of having a shit player surely just going off of basic maths?
 
M

Milly79

Member
kirblar said:
Not when you exhaust your placement games and have to go through the nightmare pit that surrounds the average MMR because of the placement matches combo'd with the terrible matchmaking.

This game does not behave like League and other games, where the best player can carry weak players. The mechanics make it so that if you have one bad, shitty player who shouldn't be where he is, that player can and will singlehandedly fuck your entire team over.

You actually know nothing here, because you're relying on this experience with other MOBAs to guide your thinking, when that experience is completely irrelevant.
Click to expand...

giphy.gif
 
A

aka_bueno

Member
I have 60 QM and 44 HL games played and that's been mostly solo. 2200 range in both, but luckily I don't care too much about all that as I'm having fun. I actually wish hotdogs didn't even exist, it seems to be all everyone cares about lately lol.

It is frustrating though I won't lie, when team mates are bad or you're instantly put at an instant disadvantage due to dumb team compositions. I'd have a higher MMR but I have a buddy who kinda stinks at this game and has a much lower MMR. He insists on playing support and always makes bad decisions and just gets caught a lot so I swear every time I play with him I lose. Also, I think because of his lower MMR it puts us at a lower bracket and we get grouped with more tards and it's like a night and day difference when I play with him as opposed to queuing solo.

Makes me wonder what my MMR would be like if I grouped with someone who can actually play decently though, but then I'm like ehh whatever I'm still having lots o fun!

kirblar said:
This game does not behave like League and other games, where the best player can carry weak players. The mechanics make it so that if you have one bad, shitty player who shouldn't be where he is, that player can and will singlehandedly fuck your entire team over.
Click to expand...

I haven't played other MOBAs but I'm very inclined to agree with this. Because it's something I've experienced a lot. This is such a team oriented game, one bad apple very often makes it hard to overcome. All it takes is one dummy who doesn't pay attention and team fights are 4v5, that's happened to me a few times just because people weren't aware or didn't care to be team players. It's hard to overcome that, not impossible, but it's a huge disadvantage.
 
K

kirblar

Member
AndyH said:
Top players in other mobas are top players here from looking at the twitch streams. I know exactly that one shit player can be too heavy to carry. I've experienced those matches. Your enemy team will have a higher chance of having a shit player surely just going off of basic maths?
Click to expand...
If you get stuck in the lower half and have to fight through the midrange, you will be seeing these people all the time because that's where the AVG MMR starts. And these players are also the ones who are going to cost you the most points with a loss due to their placement bonus multiplier.

Alur has multiple accounts. His main has a high MMR after grouping for his initial run. His other tried soloing and got stuck in the middle. He's seen firsthand both experiences.
I have 60 QM and 44 HL games played and that's been mostly solo. 2200 range in both, but luckily I don't care too much about all that as I'm having fun. I actually wish hotdogs didn't even exist, it seems to be all everyone cares about lately lol.
Click to expand...
I've got 2343 QM and had to climb from low 100s in HL to where I'm at now (~1550) due to a bad streak early on. I could easily carry games on the way up, but it's now such a coinflip snowball mess in this point range that it's not worth even trying without a 3-4 stack to just try and reduce the idiot factor.

The idiot factor and its inescapability is the huge issue. You need to segregate ranked play so that you have a minimum skill floor at each level, otherwise you get the nightmare we currently have.
 
B

brian!

Member
most complaints about mmr/mm have to do with this being a new game
a lot of ppl dont even do correct lane assignments in high mmr, that's going to be something that sounds absolutely ridiculous once the game begins to achieve a settled state

im sure league/dota both had similar problems when they were new, but it's easier to be ok w/ mm when there is a transparent elo number available

also like every conversation about this is based on anecdotal shit, or flawed number stuff
 
A

AndyH

Neo Member
I'll take your guys word for it then. I'll try make another account in the future and see if it happens to me. I do feel sorry for the people getting constantly shit team mates though. This game is pretty fun when you have two competitive teams.
 
Yoshichan

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
These two days

I've been so fucking casual

I'm starting to feel bad about it :(
 
Z

Zafir

Member
100% agree with what Kirblar is saying. There's not much more I can add to it really. Once you get to Diamond the level of play and the match making is pretty good and fun as I experience in solo queue QM, but under that gl hf.

If you're a better player you will win more than you lose just due to probability. Unfortunately just due to how the game works, the fact you can't carry, you cant make enough of an impact to consistently win enough games in a row to climb quickly and easily when you're only getting 10pts per game.

Best you can do is try and find a group to climb with on voice coms.
 
B

brian!

Member
i dunno where this idea that you can't carry came from

it's harder here compared to other mobas, but it's not non-existent nor particularly hard to achieve if there is truly a gulf in skill between you and ur poopy teammates
 
davepoobond

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks
brian! said:
i dunno where this idea that you can't carry came from

it's harder here compared to other mobas, but it's not non-existent nor particularly hard to achieve if there is truly a gulf in skill between you and ur poopy teammates
Click to expand...


i dont think ive been in a game where i can say one person carried in particular. i think it relied more on the other team ignoring someone who was doing well or they were susceptible as a team to being ganked over and over.
 
T

TheYanger

Member
brian! said:
i dunno where this idea that you can't carry came from

it's harder here compared to other mobas, but it's not non-existent nor particularly hard to achieve if there is truly a gulf in skill between you and ur poopy teammates
Click to expand...

The idea came from it being true. You cannot press an advantage you have over an opponent in your own lane when they are being fed experience from your own weak lane/players. There are more teamfights and being down a person in a teamfight because they're out of position is basically a death knell, you can choose not to engage in a fight but then you're just giving up objectives. It all snowballs very easily from one really shitty player once you're at a reasonable MMR because the other teams are generally skilled enough to take advantage of obvious tactical errors. Yes, they might have a shitter too, but they just have to have a shitter that is slightly smarter than yours for it to give them a win. The way points work you won't climb the ladder playing averages of which team has the worse worst player.
 
A

Alur

Member
kirblar said:
Alur has multiple accounts. His main has a high MMR after grouping for his initial run. His other tried soloing and got stuck in the middle. He's seen firsthand both experiences.
Click to expand...

That's not exactly correct, but it's got the gist of it.

I have ~5 accounts. The majority of the time I duo with Milly79, though my grind to rank 1 on my original account was almost entirely solo.

My main account: 2900 QM / 2000 HL (rank 25 highest achieved due to what we are discussing)

My second account: 2900 QM / 3150 HL (rank 8 highest achieved due to reset coming as I was grinding)

My original account: 2050 QM / 2870 HL (rank 1 before reset)

Fourth account: 3352 QM / never played HL

Fifth account: 2800 QM / never played HL

As kirblar said, my viewpoint comes from having one account (my main) trapped in bad MMR in Hero League due to myself and others I played with just inviting anybody willy nilly when HL launched and tanking our MMR. At one point it was like 1500-1600. The games are absolutely awful even now, hence the alt accounts.

The other account I have in low MMR was my original account that I played only Tassadar and Azmodan on and ended up at ~1750 QM MMR after my first ~75ish games before swapping to my main account once it got an invite into the beta.

AndyH said:
I'll take your guys word for it then. I'll try make another account in the future and see if it happens to me. I do feel sorry for the people getting constantly shit team mates though. This game is pretty fun when you have two competitive teams.
Click to expand...

If you've reached 3k+ on your first go 'round, you're gonna reach it again on a smurf. As you can see from my own accounts above, I can reliably hit 2800+ MMR on any account. That isn't the issue that kirblar and I are discussing, though.

You are right that if you play 100-200 games and end up in Silver or whatever, you do probably deserve to be there. We are saying, however, that the game quality there is so poor that even once you figure out what you're supposed to be doing and improve, your point gain is so minimal that you are perpetually stuck there unless you have the patience of a saint. Just take a look at my own list. Despite reliably hitting Diamond, I still have two accounts stuck in Gold because the act of carrying is unreliable when people AFK in fountain 3 minutes in, pick heroes they have no clue how to play, or just stay in one lane for 20 minutes like they are playing a more traditional MOBA only to look up and be like "What, we lost?". That's not even counting the toxicity.

Trust me, it's a real issue and something that folks like you and I who have escaped should be mighty grateful we don't have to suffer through.
 
B

brian!

Member
davepoobond said:
i dont think ive been in a game where i can say one person carried in particular. i think it relied more on the other team ignoring someone who was doing well or they were susceptible as a team to being ganked over and over.
Click to expand...

yeah that's mainly what im talking about, it's really easy to exploit mistakes when there is skill/knowledge gap

@yanger

I have a hard time following this line of thought, just because it sounds like you're saying something like "the other team was able to take advantage/play better than your team", I dunno if I'm understanding you correctly
oh I totally get what you are saying about hots being harder to carry tho, 100% agree with that
 
A

Alur

Member
aka_bueno said:
Also, I think because of his lower MMR it puts us at a lower bracket and we get grouped with more tards
Click to expand...

Did you miss the discussion on this a few pages back?

Were these players actually mentally handicapped or just making bad plays? There's a big difference. You don't go around throwing discriminatory insults about anyone else on GAF, I'm sure. There's no reason to use this one either.
 
B

brian!

Member
also what alur is saying about methods to leave a certain mmr when you're stuck is pretty important, and holds true for other mobas too, it has a lot more to do with what you learn/apply specifically towards the skill of leaving the mmr rather than being good at the game in general, esp. in this game

like an easy way to think about it is in term of mmr metas
 
K

Ketch

Member
yo dawgs. what is this MMR hell you speak of? is it like 1500s? or the 2500s? Have I made it out of elo hell? or am I just about to enter it? This is my hero league milestone graph from hotslogs:
Zu9TlaV.png
Click to expand...

yes, Playing with shitters sucks, yes the mmr system has got some problems. But everyone is part of the same system. You got shitters on your team? I guarantee there's shitters on the other team. Don't blame the system for your loses or you're never going to get out of "elo hell".



You can carry in hots. pick the heroes, make the plays, communicate with your team, and stay positive.
 
M

Milly79

Member
Ketch said:
yo dawgs. what is this MMR hell you speak of? is it like 1500s? or the 2500s? Have I made it out of elo hell? or am I just about to enter it? This is my hero league milestone graph from hotslogs:

yes, Playing with shitters sucks, yes the mmr system has got some problems. But everyone is part of the same system. You got shitters on your team? I guarantee there's shitters on the other team. Don't blame the system for your loses or you're never going to get out of "elo hell".



You can carry in hots. pick the heroes, make the plays, communicate with your team, and stay positive.
Click to expand...

You're never going pro.
 
K

Ketch

Member
Milly79 said:
You're never going pro.
Click to expand...

yea but that's just because the stupid fucking MMR system is broken

edit: I SWEAR TO GOD. I'd already be on complexity if it didn't keep matching me with these 1500 losers! Why am I always the best player on my team Milly?!
 
B

brian!

Member
dam kappa wolves strategy to stand on top of each other w/ jaina around didnt pan out
excited to see mg get in there

who made a reddit post about my match history???
5DFo9mN.png
 
A

Alur

Member
I wonder if McIntyre is salty Complexity qualified, since he stated repeatedly his main goal was to qualify for regionals at all cost.
 
Z

Zafir

Member
brian! said:
i dunno where this idea that you can't carry came from

it's harder here compared to other mobas, but it's not non-existent nor particularly hard to achieve if there is truly a gulf in skill between you and ur poopy teammates
Click to expand...

You can't in the traditional sense, and that's why I think it's wrong to even use the term. Carrying implies that you can single handedly win the game for your team, and that isn't really the case. None of the heroes do enough just due to how they're balanced, most of the time you can't even really take fights 4v5 unless you managed to get a really quick pick off or you significantly out play them(and even that would generally need more than just you to out play them). The closest the game ever got to that was/is Kael, if he got/gets a some great flamestrikes/chain bombs he could wipe a team.

Compare it to Dota 2 which is the next MOBA that I have experience in. If some of the hard carries get farmed, like a Anti-Mage for example, he can totally single handedly win the game.

You can totally influence the game of course. Especially if you are playing a good damage character. A Zeratul ganking people when they're alone making the team fights much easier or playing Jaina/Kael and doing so much damage to the team that they just can't take it, or even just good game sense which you can use to take advantage of the enemy team(knowing when they're doing the boss and so forth). All of those can totally make it more likely that you'll win. But you can't do it totally solo.

That's just my two cents anyway.
 
B

brian!

Member
Zafir said:
You can't in the traditional sense, and that's why I think it's wrong to even use the term. Carrying implies that you can single handedly win the game for your team, and that isn't really the case. None of the heroes do enough just due to how they're balanced, most of the time you can't even really take fights 4v5 unless you managed to get a really quick pick off or you significantly out play them(and even that would generally need more than just you to out play them). The closest the game ever got to that was/is Kael, if he got/gets a some great flamestrikes/chain bombs he could wipe a team.

Compare it to Dota 2 which is the next MOBA that I have experience in. If some of the hard carries get farmed, like a Anti-Mage for example, he can totally single handedly win the game.

You can totally influence the game of course. Especially if you are playing a good damage character. A Zeratul ganking people when they're alone making the team fights much easier or playing Jaina/Kael and doing so much damage to the team that they just can't take it, both of those can totally make it more likely that you'll win. But you can't do it totally solo.

That's just my two cents anyway.
Click to expand...

yeah I 100% agree w/ this, I think I might be substituting the term for something else
 
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