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[Pooya]

ah I thought Kael was 10k at launch. ok then.

 

[kirblar]

You usually see a drop every other major patch or so, as they try to keep a certain ratio of heroes at each price level. Anub was the last one, from 10K to 4K.

 

[jediyoshi]

There a way to test connection performance ingame outside of a match?

 

[fluffydelusions]

Gold builds up fast, especially early on when you are just starting out. Level the free rotation heroes to 5 and do quests. Then Buy the heroes that interest you the most and have fun!

Yeah I played a while ago back in closed beta but starting back up again and just wondering if anything has changed since then. I'm lvl 6 atm.

 

[brickwalker0]

Johanna is such an amazing hero. When the trait is talented out, she is easily a top tier tank IMO.

Here is a fantastic guide I found for her if anyone else is interested.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/featu...d-guide-for-winning-with-johanna-the-crusader

this was really helpful, thank you for sharing.

also great GAF name.

 

[Alur]

How fast do characters drop in price? Lets say I am about to buy Anub for 4k but when could he drop to 2k?

Anub specifically won't drop again most likely. He already has. As for other heroes, it's usually one a patch or one every two patches.

Seems like 2k is the lowest price. Also, should I not expect cosmetic skins other than the master skins ever become available by gold?

Doesn't look like it, no. Just master skins.

 

[jaundicejuice]

It's always a Raynor.

 

[-Digits-]

Johanna is such an amazing hero. When the trait is talented out, she is easily a top tier tank IMO.

Here is a fantastic guide I found for her if anyone else is interested.

http://www.gamerevolution.com/featu...d-guide-for-winning-with-johanna-the-crusader

I've been playing a lot of Johanna since she came out and I pretty much agree with everything in this guide. I build her around mitigation and play to harass and control. And it works out well. Johanna is just as amazing with a Jaina + Kael combo as I imagined. We just wreck teams.

Also, proof that I'm legit!

Spoiler

Because Master Skin equals skill, amirite?

 

[Alur]

Wow damn. Congrats man. Dedication.

 

[Yoshichan]

Ya'll don't know shit about Digits. I am crowning him top #3 EU control Johanna.

He's GOOD.

 

[-Digits-]

One should always be dedicated to his waifu!

 

[fluffydelusions]

Keep getting games with really bad lag. It's unplayable. Anyone else experience this?

 

[Chaos17]

My man, I don't see a request! Yoshichan#2623

Invite send

Edit : dar Nova players, please try to avoid to focus all your life on the warrior specialy Johanna while you've weakling like Falstad or Zagara instead

 

[brian!]

You don't want to give that impression (that healing is overrated) but you are denying the usefulness of it while saying its the hotness. I don't even begin to understand your side of this discussion. We are right...but we are wrong?

We know that A) good healing is even better pound for pound for bad and average players because it cleans up their mistakes and B) as Maledict pointed out no one ever goes with a no support or Tass only comp in competitive. Again, we aren't talking about Tassadar with his support buddy in Hero League or wherever, we're talking about solely Tassadar in Quick Match queued in solo and getting placed against a healing support. The Tassadar whose winrate the last 7 days is barely above Stitches, but I forget, you don't put stock in those stats, nor apparently do you the ones Blizzard provided. /shrug

Tis a convenient way to be right in a discussion, I gotta say.



Wow, boi can wave clear. Those first 5 minutes stronk. What about the rest of the game? Need dat waveclear to keep those lanes pushing rite? Good thing we don't have 20 other heroes who can do a similar job without the drawbacks and still have a real support or at least Tyrande. Wow, boi can hit yung D. Cept we have talents or skills on every support and some other heroes for that. Wow, boi can give you that shield...that expires after 8 seconds (the length of the cooldown) unless you talent it where you get to keep a whole 50%! That sure sounds better than Uther healing me every 12 seconds for more than 1/4th of my health, lemme tell you.

As it stands, right now there is very little he can do that you want in a random game that someone else wouldn't have been better served doing which is the whole point of this discussion. He's just not where he was. All the nerfs have added up and the chickens are coming home to roost Bobby Boucher.



As for this discussion you say we've been over and over again (which is another thing you disregard or can't entertain - which seems to happen often), that above me sums up exactly why I bring it up.

Your average player is not thinking about "what's my win condition" or "damn boi this Tassadar can gimme dat shield to engage". They fight, as most players do, they lose as the majority of teams without a real support do, and then they say "Wish we'd had Brightwing/Uther/Rehgar instead". There's not a lot of learning or introspection going on.

Your point of view on everything is like a literal deep dive into shit most people never consider when playing this video game. ~60% or more of the player base will never even make it past like 2200 MMR. You have to realize that people don't approach it the same. Its not that your advice or perspective is bad, its just that some of this stuff you say is like coming from a brain surgeon trying to explain to the phlebotomist how to perform an embolization to stave off an aneurysm. They nod and smile and forget that shit and go back to taking blood.

I dunno, I feel like i've given good reasons why those stats are misleading + i don't recall ever saying healing was bad but i mean maybe i snuck that in there somewhere, so I take it back if i did. I do think ppl are conditioned to depend on healers and often play as if they have a healer when they don't...(back to dmg complaint: complaining about lack of dmg, lack of warrior, lack of healer, etc. it never ends)

I don't understand why it's so hard to understand that the support matchup winrate doesnt specifically correlate to role makeup, just as getting a bunch of beetle talents on anub and having a high winrate on anub doesnt necessarily show this a->b correlation, I don't know how to make that more clear, like it's just how statistics work.

waveclear is important throughout the entire game and having it is better than not having it, i dunno how to explain that better either. But I see again here that you are kind of concentrating on comparing tass to a more traditional healer, or I dunno have some notion that I'm trying to argue that he fulfills their role better somehow, I don't think I was trying to do that.

I feel like you widely base your conclusions on hotslogs stats rather than considering kits and how heroes work together. Tassadar can do things other supports cant, you can value it or not but I don't really know how you can contest this. Hotslogs winrates don't matter when comparing kits, all they literally show is what heroes ppl are winning with, there is absolutely no conclusions to be drawn besides this, it's part of why ppl were kind of sad that blizzard were all like yeah illidan's winrates are fine he good (but did the opposite with chen, where he put out low numbers but did well in comp. play, so yah, blizz inner working not exactly revealed here)

Also, and I think this is why our mmr convo never goes anywhere lol, you seem really dead set on talking about how one particular set of set of players might play vs. another set: my thing, which I'm repeating agggaaain, is that this has absolutely no relevance to hero kits. We had this discussion about illidan in the last thread, again: if illidan works better at higher mmrs because he can dodge cc with his q, but lower mmrs dont really do that, it has nothing to do with what is packed into his kit. If lower mmrs dont know who to shield or heal, it also has nothing to do with the x hero; the statement "well maybe in THIS mmr" has nothing to do with what a hero can do. Like I'm trying to say water is made out of that sweet h2o and ur on about how no one you know drinks water, ppl didn't buy that much water in the last fiscal quarter, and only the most elite drink water anyway

i def agree that I talk about stuff ppl don't think about, but I don't think that's a bad thing, and my main point is still that you are not automatically closer to losing if you have tass instead of a healer, tass is a good hero who brings a lot to the table, and a lot of ppl go into game thinking about how they have been handicapped and thats total booty

like put even more simply, I am for ppl going into games w/ stitches and not thinking "this guy has such a low winrate, hes squishy, what the fuck are we going to do" and thinking stuff more like "yeah if stitches can land a good hook I think we have a really good shot at winning this, I'll try not to engage before he has a chance to hook", thinking about what heroes can do vs. how they are not other heroes

 

[fluffydelusions]

I could use some hots people to play with. BT: plbelanger#1923

 

[brian!]

zuna updated some builds
http://heroesofthestorm.github.io/zuna-tierlist.html

 

[Dance Inferno]

Who is this Zuna and why do we care about his/her tier list?

 

[Turdburger]

NA-GAF vs EUGAF grudge match plz

 

[Turdburger]

Who is this Zuna and why do we care about his/her tier list?

Well known moba player that has been on top tier competitive hots teams since competitive hots was even a thing. He plays for tempo storm currently

 

[brian!]

Who is this Zuna and why do we care about his/her tier list?

he's part of the top team in NA and thinks about the game a lot, he also has coined several classik hots phrases like calling giants fat bois

reminder: take tier lists w/ a grain of salt and also the builds listed on em

hes streaming right now if u want to check him out, he's probably my fav hots streamer: http://www.twitch.tv/gosuzuna

 

[Alur]

I dunno, I feel like i've given good reasons why those stats are misleading

All I recall is "I don't put much stock in them" and "they aren't representative of everyone" or "they are out of context". I don't put much stock in those reasons myself. YMMV.

Anyone researching worth their salt would kill for a sample size the size of what hotslogs has. It has its issues as I've said 100 times over (which you continually gloss over), but totally discounting stats taken across hundreds of thousands of games? Ayy lmao.

Not only that, this wasn't brought up due to hotdogs. The argument started as a statement and then was backed up with Blizzard's numbers. Not by me, by someone else. Everything else is ancillary to that.

waveclear is important throughout the entire game and having it is better than not having it, i dunno how to explain that better either.

No one is arguing that but tons of heroes have it or can reliably do it once the game advances into the latter stages. Not to mention a large portion of these games in Quick Match are played in deathball mode so the waveclear becomes less important for an individual and more of "throw your shit on it as we pass" so pretty much anyone can contribute in that manner.

I feel like you widely base your conclusions on hotslogs stats rather than considering kits and how heroes work together. Tassadar can do things other supports cant, you can value it or not but I don't really know how you can contest this.

This isn't about hotdogs. I didn't bring hotdogs up until the last post when talking about winrate to further drill down the point that Tassadar is not what he was. Its about Tassadars "kit" as you are so fond of saying not being enough anymore to compensate for his lack of specialty.

Indeed he can do things other supports can't. But he can't assassin as well as an assassin anymore or even close except on a 100 second cooldown and praying to the almighty he doesn't get stunned or Shrink Rayed.

He never could support as well as a full support and now he's even worse at that job thanks to the Healing Totem nerf. Bar a specific matchup such as stealth or utilizing him as a second support, I see no reason you take him over a specialized hero because he can't do either of those things well enough anymore to trump picking a hero doing just the one specific thing instead of his "I can do a little bit of everything".

In Quick Match facing an Uther or Brightwing or Rehgar or hell, even Lili, with the rest of the team being mirrored and having equal skill, he's a net loss for his team. His kit just doesn't translate as well as the hard CC or healing of other supports after all these nerfs. As Maledict and others have said, it doesn't mean you can't win. It just means you are less likely. As you like to say, I don't know how to say it any better than that.

As for the MMR stuff about Illidan and the like I hear you. Your point is valid and that makes 100% sense but it's not how Blizzard balances which was my whole point in that debate, so in essence what I said about Illidan then is correct - he never did get nerfed, did he? Blizzard doesn't seem immediately concerned with how broken a hero can be the rare times he or she gets "x" comp or what have you, they are more concerned with the greater majority who still struggle to play him at an acceptable level.

 

[sibarraz]

My team made a comeback in black heart bay in ranked.

It was great because we were losing for 20 minutes, a raynor said sorry for picking him, everyone was supportive with him instead of calling him noob, took a boss, won ONE teamfight and GG

 

[jaundicejuice]

Supports don't have to be healers to be strong or useful in MOBAs, it just so happens that all of the best supports in HotS happen to be really strong healers. Recent changes have negatively impacted Tassadar and made him situationally useful versus every other support in the game. But even before the changes to healing ward, both Tyrande and Tassadar straddled an awkward line with their design. They're hybrids of mediocre assassins and supports. I think Tyrande is a little less worse off than Tassadar because she has a direct heal, which can be buffed to be more powerful, and she has a skill shot stun. Tass, at best, is a hard counter to stealth and not much else. Fun to use on free Nova and Zeratul weeks.

It would be nice if there were some more CC or debuff oriented supports introduced into HotS, like Tidehunter or Vengeful Spirit. It would be nice to have a support focused so strongly around initiating a teamfight like Tide, or putting someone horrendously out of position like Venge,

 

[Milly79]

Tassadar is "booty", Brian. Face the facts.

 

[brian!]

All I recall is "I don't put much stock in them" and "they aren't representative of everyone" or "they are out of context". I don't put much stock in those reasons myself. YMMV.

Anyone researching worth their salt would kill for a sample size the size of what hotslogs has. It has its issues as I've said 100 times over (which you continually gloss over), but totally discounting stats taken across hundreds of thousands of games? Ayy lmao.

Not only that, this wasn't brought up due to hotdogs. The argument started as a statement and then was backed up with Blizzard's numbers. Not by me, by someone else. Everything else is ancillary to that.



No one is arguing that but tons of heroes have it or can reliably do it once the game advances into the latter stages. Not to mention a large portion of these games in Quick Match are played in deathball mode so the waveclear becomes less important for an individual and more of "throw your shit on it as we pass" so pretty much anyone can contribute in that manner.



This isn't about hotdogs. I didn't bring hotdogs up until the last post when talking about winrate to further drill down the point that Tassadar is not what he was. Its about Tassadars "kit" as you are so fond of saying not being enough anymore to compensate for his lack of specialty.

Indeed he can do things other supports can't. But he can't assassin as well as an assassin anymore or even close except on a 100 second cooldown and praying to the almighty he doesn't get stunned or Shrink Rayed.

He never could support as well as a full support and now he's even worse at that job thanks to the Healing Totem nerf. Bar a specific matchup such as stealth or utilizing him as a second support, I see no reason you take him over a specialized hero because he can't do either of those things well enough anymore to trump picking a hero doing just the one specific thing instead of his "I can do a little bit of everything".

In Quick Match facing an Uther or Brightwing or Rehgar or hell, even Lili, with the rest of the team being mirrored and having equal skill, he's a net loss for his team. His kit just doesn't translate as well as the hard CC or healing of other supports after all these nerfs. As Maledict and others have said, it doesn't mean you can't win. It just means you are less likely. As you like to say, I don't know how to say it any better than that.

As for the MMR stuff about Illidan and the like I hear you. Your point is valid and that makes 100% sense but it's not how Blizzard balances which was my whole point in that debate, so in essence what I said about Illidan then is correct - he never did get nerfed, did he? Blizzard doesn't seem immediately concerned with how broken a hero can be the rare times he or she gets "x" comp or what have you, they are more concerned with the greater majority who still struggle to play him at an acceptable level.

man im not discounting stats, im saying that you are drawing conclusions from them that they arent indicating. a low winrate = a low winrate, it indicates a low winrate and you cant draw conclusions as to why this is the case from the stats. this is what i mean when i say i dont put much stock in them: they dont offer these types of conclusions, all they say is that ppl are losing or winning, not why

the waveclear thing is to bring up a benifit tass has that other supports dont, thats all, there are plenty of examples of things tass brings that other supports dont, and my thing has always been to try to win with tass has rather than the heal he doesnt

we have no idea how blizz balances; at one point they will say they balance off of winrates, another they will say winrates dont matter since the hero has a good showing in competitive. if it's off winrate im sad, if it's off competitive im less sad, but u kno, still sad boi. but yeah their method is not transparent. diablo in particular was really funny since they released 3 statements: yeah he's booty sry we're gonna redo him, actually he's not booty we think this is ok, so guys how do you like the new diablo

I feel you totally on tass being a generalized hero without particular specialty (I disagree tho), but I am against the idea that he is a net loss or that thinking about heroes that way is beneficial in any way. I feel you on the less likely, but I'm absolutely confident that the stat is because of the players, not the hero, and that ppl can be successful on him no matter what mmr they are

Tassadar is "booty", Brian. Face the facts.

he was picked in every game by the gods ts and c9m tho...
u cant fight the scripture...

 

[Askherserenity]

Dansgaming (popular Twitch dude) is streaming Heroes. He didn't even practice against AI first. It seems like both teams are new though, so it's just fucking hilarious. Neither of the teams were going for the temples.

 

[Milly79]

he was picked in every game by the gods ts and c9m tho...
u cant fight the scripture...

Brian, they're pros. We're talking about the nobodies here.

 

[brian!]

nah we're talking about tassadar instead of a healer i thought
i mean maybe i did that thing where I didn't understand the initial conversation

 

[Milly79]

nah we're talking about tassadar instead of a healer i thought
i mean maybe i did that thing where I didn't understand the initial conversation

Oh man, I guess I missed the part where you were talking about Tass being viable. Maybe I misunderstood.

 

[brian!]

I was talking about the notion that having tass instead of a healer necessarily gimps your team and trying to fight against that but mebbe i lost the plot

 

[xDUMPWEEDx]

I've been playing a lot of Johanna since she came out and I pretty much agree with everything in this guide. I build her around mitigation and play to harass and control. And it works out well. Johanna is just as amazing with a Jaina + Kael combo as I imagined. We just wreck teams.

Also, proof that I'm legit!

Spoiler

Because Master Skin equals skill, amirite?

Grats on master skin . I have master skins for Tychus and Diablo currently. Johanna's trait talents synergize so well together, making a beastly trait as is even better.

 

[Spl1nter]

I think it fine to have tass as your only support as long as they are using the mecha-tassadar skin.

 

[InvaderZimmer]

zuna updated some builds
http://heroesofthestorm.github.io/zuna-tierlist.html

Q based build for Valla is called multi shot build? I am confused.

 

[jaundicejuice]

Lost 11 of my last 14 games and a lot of them I don't think I played badly. Didn't feed, contributed to teamfights and objectives, usually pretty high or the top of exp contributed. siege and/or hero damage. I'm not toxic in chat, I don't flame people. I ask for help, ping (no spamming) things. Call danger, ask for help, whatever. I did spam queue as Kael a bit but I've also played warriors and supports as well and just fucking lose lose lose lose lose. It's eroding what tenacity and positivity I have.

It's the plague of brown horses. Raynors yolo pushing lanes, Tychus dropping Odins as if it's a second health bar, people walking into teamfights one by one for the entire match (WE CAN STILL WINDIS GUYZ), Gazlowes farming mercs and they didn't go for the right click build, people fucking fighting over watch towers for too damned long, ignoring objectives, idiot fights over coin turn in on Booty Bay so much we start falling ebhind in exp. It feels like the early stages of the Alpha all over again.

I've avoided Hero League thus far because it's kind of the antithesis of what I like out of this game, quick and casual play with whatever hero I want to play as, but I feel like release week is driving me to play Hero League. I'm just going to unlock Brightwing, spam queue that for a while in QM and spam queue BW in HL.

I hate Booty Bay because of its watch tower and that exp blackhole between mid and bot lane. Tomb of the Spider Queen feels like it's the same concept except well implemented.

 

[Alur]

I think it fine to have tass as your only support as long as they are using the mecha-tassadar skin.

This should've been the first response in the discussion.

 

[Savitar]

Played some matches after the earlier "fun". Was much better, maybe just got lucky. But overall people were playing better at least and so I had more fun. And honestly, it's all I care about.

 

[brian!]

Q based build for Valla is called multi shot build? I am confused.

he just didnt change the name, multishot build still the hot tho this is the popular build in china

 

[Yoshichan]

It's the plague of brown horses. Raynors yolo pushing lanes, Tychus dropping Odins as if it's a second health bar, people walking into teamfights one by one for the entire match (WE CAN STILL WINDIS GUYZ), Gazlowes farming mercs and they didn't go for the right click build, people fucking fighting over watch towers for too damned long, ignoring objectives, idiot fights over coin turn in on Booty Bay so much we start falling ebhind in exp. It feels like the early stages of the Alpha all over again.

this made me laugh so hard

 

[InvaderZimmer]

he just didnt change the name, multishot build still the hot tho this is the popular build in china

Thanks for the clarification. I love the multishot build so much I thought I was out of touch.

Side note: anyone turn on quickcast just for Sylvanas? Holding down Q rather than spamming the heck out of it feels so much better. I use on release for everyone else. I wish you could specify which individual skills use what type of quickcast.

 

[Milly79]

Broke 3k mmr. Yayyyy. On my way to Brian status.

 

[Haly]

You will never be brian status.

 

[jaundicejuice]

I haven't seen this many Tychus' panic drop Odin's since the first changed how the heroic functioned.

 

[Milly79]

You will never be brian status.

Yeah, I don't think I'd be down for making ridiculous claims myself.

 

[Alur]

Broke 3k mmr. Yayyyy. On my way to Brian status.

This should suffice as my response:

Proud papa over here.

I haven't seen this many Tychus' panic drop Odin's since the first changed how the heroic functioned.

You really need to get in some GAF groups before you have a stress related heart attack or just never play the game again.

 

[Dice]

Just had a game with GAF bros and our Tassadar singlehandedly shut down a 5-man core push in like 3 seconds.

 

[pigeon]

Just had a game with GAF bros and our Tassadar singlehandedly shut down a 5-man core push in like 3 seconds.

Sure, but the odds of him doing that were probably pretty low, so still net loss, right?

 

[Alur]

Just had a game with GAF bros and our Tassadar singlehandedly shut down a 5-man core push in like 3 seconds.

Sure, but the odds of him doing that were probably pretty low, so still net loss, right?

I like the cut of your jib.

 

[Yoshichan]

One of the least fun days I've had with this game so far, and it wasn't even for the win:loss-ratio. I think I'm at like 65% wins today, so it's definitely not that.

I dunno, I just haven't enjoyed the matches at all - despite winning or losing.

Gonna head to bed. Tomorrow's a new day.

 

[super-famicom]

Thanks for the clarification. I love the multishot build so much I thought I was out of touch.

Side note: anyone turn on quickcast just for Sylvanas? Holding down Q rather than spamming the heck out of it feels so much better. I use on release for everyone else. I wish you could specify which individual skills use what type of quickcast.

I used to never use quick cast while playing, but it feels much better to have it on for Sylvanas. I now use it with all heroes, but I miss the green arrows showing where moves like Anub's burrow will end up. I know I could turn off quick cast for him, but then I'd have to turn it on when I play other heroes. But I did manage to learn the burrow range and ganked some people running away from my teammates yesterday. Definitely wish there was a toggle per hero.

 

[Dice]

I would put a clip of it on youtube but it seems that HotS doesn't allow OBS to record it? It's only recording the sound...

nm I'll put a clip of it up shortly.