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Heroes of the Storm |OT| Pretty sure that Abathur is AFK

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Alur

Member
This improved matchmaking is really grim for me, I thought I was average in skill, im either amazing or shite according to how long its taking to find a game?

Average time says 153s and it takes me 600-700 seconds minimum to find a game now.

Will stitches ever be viable? I love his skins and his abilities but he's just bad over all.

Dunno where you're playing him at, but he's perfectly fine in QM. I see him plenty. The little buffs they gave him helped him a ton from where he was at.

I don't think the time spent in queue has anything to do with skill anymore. The way it looks for games is different, and it's looking for people near your level and flagging them. Once it has enough it makes a game. Sometimes they are already there, sometimes it has to wait for games to finish or cast a wider MMR net.
 
KT is fine.

He's a mono-build hero. If they find a way to make a Lapsed Gravity/Flamestrike build just as compelling as the damage output he gets from Fission/Chain Bomb that would be great. Baking Netherwind's range down into Lapsed Gravity and adding Fury of the Sunwell were halfway steps in that direction.

They also haven't made Pyroblast a compelling ultimate, the larger cast range wasn't enough. Too many heroes can dodge it with blink/bolt/ice block, so it's pointless to choose over Al'ar 99.9% of the time. It would be hilarious if they re-added Ignite, but made it the level 20 Pyroblast talent. Even if the initial burst didn't kill you, the DoT's and AoE's could.
 

patchday

Member
I can't agree with that when we have heroes like Gazlowe and Tychus running around, but I do agree on Arcane Barrier.

If Lunara had it she'd be considered just fine right now. Since she doesn't she is now the squishiest hero in the game.


If KT didn't have it, he'd be in the Lunara boat. Though there was certainly a time when no one used that talent and he still rekt.

This is what kills me when I play Lunara. I usually only have 0-3 deaths and I look at stats see everyone else dying way, way more. ugh....

She's still squishy as heck tho. I'm constantly recalling to refill
 

Alur

Member
I'd argue FS build is completely viable with the buff to GP. Even without going FoTS it still works. It's fun as fuck too.

Yeah. I think they are referring to competitive only. For QM it's definitely viable. We've won with you doing it and it's not like your damage takes a huge dip. It's just not as derp easy as the Chain Bomb stuff.
 

Milly79

Member
Yeah. I think they are referring to competitive only. For QM it's definitely viable. We've won with you doing it and it's not like your damage takes a huge dip. It's just not as derp easy as the Chain Bomb stuff.

I forgot he doesn't actually play the game.
Kappa.png
 

brian!

Member
It's seen some play in competitive but it's rare that the conditions will line up for it and you can basically never go wrong w/ cb build
 

Alur

Member
Been solo healing as Tyrande.

I know a few of you hate it, but gat damn is it nice to be able to play her in QM without intentionally gimping my team.
 
They need to change the UI so it's more clear when someone has disconnected. Dota has persistent icons of the heroes of both teams that do different things, you can click on portraits of enemy heroes to call missing, you can see if your teammates ult is on CD on or not, but more to the point, the hero icons grey out when a player disconnects for whatever reason. They have the UI real-estate, they just need to replace that stupid sliding spawn timer with something more useful.
 

Alur

Member
They used to alert both teams when someone disconnected. It's a bit of an unfair advantage, though.

But really if you are paying any attention to the map at all, you'll both hear the announcement + see the hero name instead of the player name.
 
And that gets lost in the middle of things happening sometimes. Especially with them cutting down on the amount of announcer chatter. "Oh, so and so is a bot?" is something I've been seeing since Alpha. It shouldn't be a problem, the solution already exists.
 

Alur

Member
I have never seen it be a problem at our MMR. Everyone recognizes the bot on both sides, for better and worse. It's free kills after that.

The change to make it not announce the d/c to the other team helped a bit at stopping free kills, but as soon as you engage again it becomes obvious.

Thankfully not many d/c's or outright quitters at 3k MMR.

Either way though, not like that bot is going to do a lot for you regardless. You're boned probably 90-95% of the time.
 

Yoshichan

And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Lunara 10k for 2 weeks

F0h8RMn.png
 

patchday

Member
Wow my overall quickmatch win rate with Lunara is 40%. Just to give perspective-

Jaina QM win is 50%
Nova QM is 80%
Raynow HL win is 69.6%


I guess I need to avoid playing Lunara in HL til she gets fixes
 
Wow my overall quickmatch win rate with Lunara is 40%. Just to give perspective-
Jaina QM win is 50%
Nova QM is 80%
Raynow HL win is 69.6%

I guess I need to avoid playing Lunara in HL til she gets fixes

... or you just need more time to practice and get used to a brand new hero with a pretty unique skillset?
 
I'd argue FS build is completely viable with the buff to GP. Even without going FoTS it still works. It's fun as fuck too.

Sure it's viable, you're not tanking your winrate by 20% when you pick that. But 5.5% less viable is pretty alarming when it's consistent across a huge sample size

as for competitive, it's not really even a question

I forgot he doesn't actually play the game.
Kappa.png

i dunno I think being rank 1 from the inception of ranked until i stopped playing and having a brain gives me a strong enough backing to say what I think and have some merit

And it's not like I don't play at all; I do try all the new heroes somewhat extensively when they come out
 
I mean it's not like this is an issue that's unique to Kael'thas. It's a problem a lot of heroes have. There are a few mono-build/ult heroes in HotS.

you're right, but statistically KaelThas is the most one-dimensional hero in the game. Fission Bomb is picked in 99% of games! Chain bomb in 98%. It's so broken that it's as if he doesn't have other talents.

people can argue the statistics based on subjective experience ("I did fine with build X over Y number of games") and that's fine, but changes were never made based on subjective experience. the stats speak for themselves
 

patchday

Member
... or you just need more time to practice and get used to a brand new hero with a pretty unique skillset?

I just started using Raynor when I started HL and immediately got a high win rate.

Sure, my win rate might improve over time. I mean- its so low it has to go up

----
And I know this is wrong but I probably got a 100% win rate against Lunara. Actually, looking at my stats I do have a 100% win against her in Hero League
 
So do these Winterveil stimpacks stack on to the year? I'm almost at 50 games.

you're right, but statistically KaelThas is the most one-dimensional hero in the game. Fission Bomb is picked in 99% of games! Chain bomb in 98%. It's so broken that it's as if he doesn't have other talents.

people can argue the statistics based on subjective experience ("I did fine with build X over Y number of games") and that's fine, but changes were never made based on subjective experience. the stats speak for themselves

I do not disagree.

I know Gazlowe is dumpster tier but one of the reasons I like him is he has many viable talents and two viable ults that dictate his playstyle. You going siege/merc/split-push damage or are you going turretspam/teamfight AoE? Sylvanas is almost in that same boat, it's just that her siege ultimate sucks.
 

kirblar

Member
So Turdburgler thinks he can post walls of text on Reddit?

WELL TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME - https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/3xt8x3/blizzards_bad_design_choices_led_to_tyrande_and/

After the last two patches brought both reworks and an overall rebalance to the game, Tassadar/Tyrande have been omnipresent in competitive play, with near 100% pick-ban rates, and Tyrande has started to dominate HL/QM play as well, with a near-58% winrate on HOTSLOGS.

Normally, in these situations, the correct thing to do is just to hold tight and wait for Blizzard’s team to fix things. They know there’s an issue and typically adjust the numbers to compensate until things look good.

In the case of these two, however, the numbers are never going to work right because Blizzard has made a series of very bad choices in response to matchmaking issues that have left Tassadar and Tyrande being asked to fulfill multiple party roles equally well, in a way that will leave them either overpowered or turn both of them into boring healbots.

Tassadar and Tyrande have been designated as support characters since the beginning, but neither was designed (or redesigned, in Tassadar’s case) as a main healer. Instead, both are hybrid DPS/Heal characters with large amounts of Vision utility. Throughout most of this game’s lifespan, they’ve been good characters who have seen lots of competitive play, and who have been great when slotted into one of the 4 non-healer spots in a competitive team. Teams would occasionally run both of them in order to forego a healer, since their combined healing output would roughly approximate one (minus the missing Ultimate) while allowing for larger DPS output.

The issue with these characters started not because of any issue with these two characters, but with the QM matchmaker. Blizzard noted that games where one team had a healer while the other did not were relatively lopsided, and decided to introduce a rule where if one team had at least one support, the other would need to have one as well. This was great, except for one big issue: While Tassadar and Tyrande were supports, they were not healers. Their lack of healing through-put would recreate the same “healer vs no healer” dynamic inside QM games despite the support rule being in place. Tassadar and Tyrande’s QM winrate plummeted, and Blizzard realized that something needed to change.

Blizzard decided that the best course of action would be to make Tassadar and Tyrande capable of pulling their weight as solo healers, instead of excluding them from the QM support matchmaking rules. This decision is the single root cause of their current issues, and until these decisions are reversed and corrected, these two characters will be thorns in Blizzard’s side, breaking the game in their path.

What Blizzard is asking of these characters is an impossibility. Both Tassadar and Tyrande were conceptualized as offensive characters who were also capable of helping out on defense. Both characters were about ¾ DPS and ¼ Healer. They were not designed to solo-heal. But in one of the most recent patches, both characters received retunes which essentially put Tyrande at ¾ DPS and ¾ Healer, while Tassadar received a substantial nerf to his offensive Ultimate in the process, leaving him at ⅗ DPS and ¾ Healer. Note that both characters add up to over 100%. This is not a mistake, it is the natural conclusion of asking two characters to fulfill two entirely different role archetypes equally well. Given that they’re over 100%, this would mean both are in need of a nerf. But if you don’t want to hit their healing capabilities (due to the effect on QM), this means that the only thing left to be nerfed is their DPS. They’ll become ¼ DPS and ¾ Healer, and become just like the other supports.

This is the natural outcome of this design decision: If you require them to be healers because of artificial QM requirements, they will turn into healers, and lose their unique hybrid design attributes in the process. This was pointed out by players like Dunktrain, who feared that direction for the characters, and sadly seems like it is an inevitability unless Blizzard reverses course and corrects the actual issue here- the character classification system’s interaction with the QM matchmaker.

Neither Tassadar nor Tyrande was changed because there was an actual issue with either characters. Instead of correcting the global matchmaking constraints causing the play issues, they instead chose to try and warp the characters to fit into a broken system. This has had negative effects on both the characters and on the overall gameplay of Heroes of the Storm, and the characters will continue to suffer if a fix to the real issue is not implemented, taking the “Full Healer in QM” burden off of the characters’ shoulders when balance decisions are to be made.

There are two possible fixes. The first is to manually exempt these two characters from the QM matchmaking rules. Blizzard likely didn’t want to go through this route because it would complicate a complicated system even further and make it even more difficult to explain to players suffering matchmaking problems why their problems were occurring.

The alternative and best fix is to simply remove the Support classification from Tassadar and Tyrande. .At the time the original decision was made, Lt. Morales had not yet been released. If Tassadar had been moved to another classification, it would have left Starcraft with no Warriors and no supports. For Daily Quest purposes, I can totally understand why Blizzard didn’t want to have this happen. Now that Starcraft has an alternative Support, however, we are left with a very simple and clean fix to the solution. Tyrande should become an Assassin. Tassadar should become a Specialist. Suddenly, they will fit into QM group comps in ways far more appropriate to their original design intent, and allow the balance team to tweak their numbers in ways that allow the characters to still feel like the Tassadar and Tyrande we’ve come to know and love.

Over time, subclassifications could and should be added to the game to highlight characters who fall in the grey area. Tyrael, Tassadar, Abathur, Tyrande, and perhaps ETC could all get the “Support” subclassification, while characters like Artanis and Sonya could get an Assassin subclass, and Arthas/Rexxar a Specialist subclass. This would help indicate to newer characters that the character isn’t quite the full-on Tank/Assassin character they might be expecting at first glance.

I hope that this reaches and influences those at Blizzard making these decisions, because the current situation is not good, and will never work out in a positive fashion for the game or players. You’ve made many good decisions, but have also been willing to take the L when your decisions haven’t worked out. Sadly, this is another time that you need to do so, but it would truly be for the betterment of the game.

tldr: Warping Tassadar and Tyrande to fit the matchmaker’s Support Rule has hurt the game by making them impossible to balance without turning them into healbots. Making them a Specialist and Assassin, respectively, would address the QM matchmaking issues and allow both to be the hybrid badasses they’ve always been.
 

Milly79

Member
Sure it's viable, you're not tanking your winrate by 20% when you pick that. But 5.5% less viable is pretty alarming when it's consistent across a huge sample size

as for competitive, it's not really even a question



i dunno I think being rank 1 from the inception of ranked until i stopped playing and having a brain gives me a strong enough backing to say what I think and have some merit

And it's not like I don't play at all; I do try all the new heroes somewhat extensively when they come out

I think my issue is the way you come in here claiming its gospel when I'd argue you're talking for the competitive scene 100% of the time.

No one here is competitive. Its great you wanna talk about it, but it really doesn't pertain to how the game is played in QM/HL. Is KTs diversity an issue? Yes, I'll agree. Is he an issue overall? Hell no. In fact I've seen less and less of him as time has went on, yet he's so OP I should see him every game, right?
 
I think my issue is the way you come in here claiming its gospel when I'd argue you're talking for the competitive scene 100% of the time.

No one here is competitive. Its great you wanna talk about it, but it really doesn't pertain to how the game is played in QM/HL. Is KTs diversity an issue? Yes, I'll agree. Is he an issue overall? Hell no. In fact I've seen less and less of him as time has went on, yet he's so OP I should see him every game, right?

Apparently you didn't read my posts carefully enough to realize that what sparked the discussion was someone else questioning whether Kael'Thas was invading Lunara's design space.

Kael'Thas is badly designed. This is true.

Kael'Thas is currently one of the most powerful heroes in the game. This is also true.

He's so much more powerful than Lunara that he makes Lunara look bad. This too is true.

All three propositions are backed up by statistics representing all levels of play (not just competitive) as well as Kael'Thas's performance in competitive.

Not once did I ever say Kael'Thas is such a problem that he ... whatever conclusion you have built up in your head that you think I was saying. For the sake of improving the game, Blizzard should change Kael'Thas. Thankfully, they already know this and are working on it.
 
I just started using Raynor when I started HL and immediately got a high win rate.

Sure, my win rate might improve over time. I mean- its so low it has to go up

----
And I know this is wrong but I probably got a 100% win rate against Lunara. Actually, looking at my stats I do have a 100% win against her in Hero League

I would argue from the little I've seen of Lunara (having only played one day in the last week and a half) that Raynor is probably a lot easier to play. He has one skillshot, a set it and forget ult (both options), great damage with the AA build and good survivability. I think it's probably easier to play a good Raynor and right now a decent Raynor has a pretty high impact on the game. She probably does need some tweaks, but I think the issue is people have to figure out how to play her well still.
 
So Turdburgler thinks he can post walls of text on Reddit?

tldr: Warping Tassadar and Tyrande to fit the matchmaker’s Support Rule has hurt the game by making them impossible to balance without turning them into healbots. Making them a Specialist and Assassin, respectively, would address the QM matchmaking issues and allow both to be the hybrid badasses they’ve always been.

You've been really passionate about arguing this point for quite a while, and I understand where you're coming from, but I have to say that I almost entirely disagree with you. You argue that with the changes, Blizzard is forcing these characters into support-oriented builds in order to please the matchmaker versus simply changing their classification. The problem is that before these changes, both characters had massive design flaws and the situation was essentially the opposite: Tassadar was forced into being a pseudo-damage dealer on a 120 second cooldown (Archon was a huge problem) and Tyrande was forced into an awkward damage/utility build because her support talents weren't good enough. I don't consider either of those situations "hybrid badasses".

Tyrande has a bunch of different viable builds but they all include Shadowstalk. The changes to "turn her into a healbot" are technically all related to Shadowstalk. You can still pick Starfall, so I don't understand your argument here. Yeah, Starfall is worse, but that's a numbers issue and not a design issue. You still have the choice of which to pick, and in the future, QM players will still be able to pick. Thus she would still be able to be played as an assassin. They're not forcing you to play a healbot build. If they get rid of Battle Momentum (should be on tanks only IMO to reward skilled warriors for auto attacking effectively in fights) and lower Starfall's cooldown, these two Heroics are on a similar power level and both specs are viable.

Tassadar is a much bigger problem, as he has had really bad design for a really long time. The changes that make his Q better and Archon worse are definitely a positive IMO. Tassadar is in a far better place than he was when he was a vision bot that turned into a god for 12 seconds every 2 minutes. Tass isn't fixed, but he's definitely better. They nerfed Archon a bit too hard, but again, that's a numbers issue. If they improve it again slightly, then going Static Charge -> Archon and going more into damage is a viable build again. You'd probably argue that this makes him too good, as giving up Khala's and Force Wall doesn't actually impact his numbers that much while Static Charge and Archon greatly increase his damage. You would likely tell me that this is the fundamental problem here. In that case I think you're disregarding the power of Force Wall and pre-shielding a bit too much.

Tass is way better design-wise than he was before. He's not fixed by any means though. His problems lie in his 13 and 16 talents, where both tiers don't effectively enhance either playstyle (support or assassin) so it's better just to go for his survivability talents. I think they need to rework both talent tiers for him, but that has nothing to do with his recent changes, which I think were at least a small step in the right direction.

Your current perception of Tass is probably slightly clouded by the fact that he's basically unkillable. If they make him actually killable again by removing or changing his E talents, the increase in damage from Static/Archon/13/16 is suddenly not so insane because he can actually die. Or, with regards to support, his Q having a lot more power is less important if teams can actually target and kill him.

Imo its Prescience/Warp that is the problem here... not the changes to Archon and his Q... Archon can be fixed with some simple number adjustments.

edit: i upvoted for ya, its definitely good discussion
 

patchday

Member
I would argue from the little I've seen of Lunara (having only played one day in the last week and a half) that Raynor is probably a lot easier to play. He has one skillshot, a set it and forget ult (both options), great damage with the AA build and good survivability. I think it's probably easier to play a good Raynor and right now a decent Raynor has a pretty high impact on the game. She probably does need some tweaks, but I think the issue is people have to figure out how to play her well still.

People said the same thing about Artanis. Sometimes a player's skill can only do so much when the kit itself has some fundamental flaw that we cannot overcome. * Artanis has gotten buffs now tho bringing him up to speed

Going to keep playing her though because I love her concept and I do fairly decent. She has a great foundation and synergy. Some of the talent choices are a bit weird though as others have stated a few pages back (such as more dmg to structures turning her into a hybrid specialist of a sort)

So Turdburgler thinks he can post walls of text on Reddit?

WELL TWO CAN PLAY AT THAT GAME - https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofthestorm/comments/3xt8x3/blizzards_bad_design_choices_led_to_tyrande_and/



tldr: Warping Tassadar and Tyrande to fit the matchmaker’s Support Rule has hurt the game by making them impossible to balance without turning them into healbots. Making them a Specialist and Assassin, respectively, would address the QM matchmaking issues and allow both to be the hybrid badasses they’ve always been.

I think the root issue is QM which I think your post states. My approach is to handle this like the other MOBAs. Give people more choices for game modes. Right now all we have is Hero League and the Quickmatch mode. This is just too barren and hurts the game. We need a non-ranked mode that allows players to compose their team compositions themselves so they can prepare for Hero League. I know some people that would much rather do that. In LoL you can compose team compositions day #1. * Granted, their Blind Pick mode does not enforce meta and leads to much gnashing of teeth and tears. Instead I'd propose bringing LoL's amazing Team Builder mode in which can be used to enforce a meta (1 support, tank, etc) that the host can setup. It works incredibly well.

[edit] It also makes me sad this game is so reliant on heal bots. League of Legends is nothing like this. Sure we have 'supports' but their purpose is to provide vision to the team and bodyguard the 'Carry' until their bloom in late game. However, since this game is actually more MMO-like then MOBA we need the healers to sustain during objectives and boss battles. They'd have to rework tanks and supports to make it more consistent with other MOBAs. I do like this game a whole lot tho but I find myself also going back to LoL for a traditional MOBA experience
 
[edit] It also makes me sad this game is so reliant on heal bots. League of Legends is nothing like this. Sure we have 'supports' but their purpose is to provide vision to the team and bodyguard the 'Carry' until their bloom in late game. However, since this game is actually more MMO-like then MOBA we need the healers to sustain during objectives and boss battles. They'd have to rework tanks and supports to make it more consistent with other MOBAs. I do like this game a whole lot tho but I find myself also going back to LoL for a traditional MOBA experience

this is so correct.... the problem I think is they're in too deep with the current design that they can't really go back on it :(

They would have needed to make a huge change like that way back in the alpha or something
 

brian!

Member
It's hard to say that they are even thinking about it, like their attitude towards supports right now is we're not making any supports for a while whatever

Ties in w/ the obvious base solution for roles which is to get rid of any influence it has for mm and just make qm blind pick, which they totally can do without fucking things up hard, feels like they are attached to all the work they put in trying to make it work tho
 

kirblar

Member
Why shouldnt it happen?
Because it will inevitably turn her into a healbot. She and Tass will get Cleanse, and the game will be worse for it.

Making them full healers because players are too stupid to understand that "Support" doesn't mean "Healer" is pandering to the worst kind of illiterate demographic.
 

brian!

Member
I feel you on that but i was thinking more about how the numbers didnt get adjusted along w/ the scaling changes, it got a boost across the board that wasnt necessary in the slightest, w/ you on supports being tunneled in as heal gimmicks but it's tied to qm for me (as is the future devlopment of any hero)
 
Because it will inevitably turn her into a healbot.

in what way? i don't understand this. they still have lower healing numbers than the other supports in exhcnage for better utility and damage

She and Tass will get Cleanse,

Says who? i dont think there's any reason to believe this

and the game will be worse for it.

and why exactly would this make the game worse? Cleanse is no where near an auto pick at this point anyway

Making them full healers because players are too stupid to understand that "Support" doesn't mean "Healer" is pandering to the worst kind of illiterate demographic.

Its not player stupidity, it's what HOTS makes you believe a support hero is by having every other support hero be a healer

Additionally, teams having the option to solo heal with them is great for the competitive meta and draft process imo
 
This is a fundamental flaw with Blizzard's simplified approach to the genre, without items to supplement a support heroes skill set their ability to support is going to be defined by the one support metric the game scores. How well they heal.

In Heroes of the Storm I don't have to worry about buying courier, buying flying for the courier, buying and placing wards all game, using healing consumables on the carry, buying utility items like dust, sentry wards or a gem of truesight, buying core support items that help the team like a Mekanism, Arcane Boots or Forcestaff, buying portal scrolls for carries to get them back to the front line for exp gain, gold farming and saving them gold. Diving and sacrificing myself so the carry doesn't die and lose gold in a gank attempt. There are so many things that define what a support hero is in Dota.

In Heroes of the Storm I heal.

They're trying to get away from the rigidly defined roles but then the problem is without those rigid roles, the blind-pick matchmaking gets harder for their system. Players share blame in this problem, they're picking whatever they want and the matchmaking has to deal with these choices on top of a list of criteria to make a decent match in a short amount of time. The solution is simple, Quick Match needs to become the place new players go to farm heroes when they first start playing and Unranked Draft/All-Pick needs to be added. 1 min pre-match draft phase with no bans. Then you'll only get terrible team compositions some of the time and Blizzard can continue to play fast and loose with the hero roles.
 

kirblar

Member
in what way? i don't understand this. they still have lower healing numbers than the other supports in exhcnage for better utility and damage

Says who? i dont think there's any reason to believe this

and why exactly would this make the game worse? Cleanse is no where near an auto pick at this point anyway

Its not player stupidity, it's what HOTS makes you believe a support hero is by having every other support hero be a healer

Additionally, teams having the option to solo heal with them is great for the competitive meta and draft process imo
They are going to get continuously worse damage as a result of this decision. It is an inevitability, and we've already seen it happen with Tassadar. This is the consequence of this design choice.

It is player stupidity. They were in the game for close to two years as Assassin/Heal hybrids without an issue. If you played them, it was blatantly obvious that they're not supposed to be healing a team up- no healing Ult being a giant clue alongside their marginal healing output. The issue was the QM matchmaker, and they chose to address it by warping heroes around the matchmaker instead of just fixing the damn mathchmaker.

Having a Tyrande solo heal shouldn't be a normal thing, it should mean you're a hyper-aggressive comp making a very sizable tradeoff in sustainability for more DPS, the calculus of which has been massively altered w/ the changes to Tass/Ty.

I hate that Tassadar's ability to be agressive on DPS got hit in order to make this happen. I hate everything about the thought process that led to that decision being made- the logic is back-asswards and it leads to a game with less diversity in hero archetypes, not more.
 

Spl1nter

Member
I think this whole discussion is too hypothetical until we see the next support introduced into the game. They could even decide to rework all the current supports. The only recent supports are Kharazhim and LT and only one of those is a healbot. I don't think you can even say Bliz were aiming for being able to play Tyrande solo support with the levelling changes. She clearly is OP right now with the ability to out heal the healbots while still having one of the best stuns and traits for bursting.

Tass can still put up good damage and has excellent utility. But I would not consider him a solo support.
 
How many rules does the matchmaker have to follow already?

It has to draw on a pool of players all in the relatively same rank, all in a central enough location to one another and the server they're going to connect to, in a short amount of time and--this is key--it has to choose from the hero pool these players provide and try to make a decent team. And on top of this you want to add further rules regarding specific heroes?

At this point the solution is not using blind pick matchmaking.
 

Alur

Member
They are going to get continuously worse damage as a result of this decision. It is an inevitability, and we've already seen it happen with Tassadar. This is the consequence of this design choice.

It is player stupidity. They were in the game for close to two years as Assassin/Heal hybrids without an issue. If you played them, it was blatantly obvious that they're not supposed to be healing a team up- no healing Ult being a giant clue alongside their marginal healing output. The issue was the QM matchmaker, and they chose to address it by warping heroes around the matchmaker instead of just fixing the damn mathchmaker.

Having a Tyrande solo heal shouldn't be a normal thing, it should mean you're a hyper-aggressive comp making a very sizable tradeoff in sustainability for more DPS, the calculus of which has been massively altered w/ the changes to Tass/Ty.

I hate that Tassadar's ability to be agressive on DPS got hit in order to make this happen. I hate everything about the thought process that led to that decision being made- the logic is back-asswards and it leads to a game with less diversity in hero archetypes, not more.

The vast majority of this sounds like personal preference more than hard and fast truth.

I'm not seeing Tyrande's outhealing real supports in QM on any kind of regular basis. It may be different in competitive, but again we're not playing competitive. They have bans for a reason. I'm a pretty good support player and even going all in with healing I still have to 2 for 1 to keep within a reasonable distance of competent medic's and monk's.

Tyrande is just as aggressive as she ever was. Hell, with the scaling changes Hunter's Mark is even more OP which is part of the reason she's become such an outlier.

Sure, maybe when folks are queuing into QM and end up as the solo heals she can decently perform the role now and chooses the "heal" ult over the "damage" ult, but I can't see how that is a bad thing whatsoever.

Do I wish they had flagged her and Tassadar as a different archetype for the purposes of QM? Yes.

Am I mad they can finally decently perform and spec into the other side of their dual role and be built both ways? No way.

That's exactly what everyone was arguing about last page...how certain heroes have no diversity. These finally have some and you want them to go back to one build options?

How many rules does the matchmaker have to follow already?

It has to draw on a pool of players all in the relatively same rank, all in a central enough location to one another and the server they're going to connect to, in a short amount of time and--this is key--it has to choose from the hero pool these players provide and try to make a decent team. And on top of this you want to add further rules regarding specific heroes?

At this point the solution is not using blind pick matchmaking.

Agreed it is a lot of rules. I think he's referring to changing Tass and Tyr's classifications though.

I agree with you on the blind pick matchmaking. It's too hard to get right and not have people here, on reddit, and everywhere else complain about every 4th or 5th game they have and post screenshots.

I'd love to see a QM draft.

Unfortunately it's not on the horizon and I doubt it will be for a bit til this matchmaking fix fully rolls out and we get Grandmaster in HL.
 

brian!

Member
I think this whole discussion is too hypothetical until we see the next support introduced into the game. They could even decide to rework all the current supports. The only recent supports are Kharazhim and LT and only one of those is a healbot. I don't think you can even say Bliz were aiming for being able to play Tyrande solo support with the levelling changes. She clearly is OP right now with the ability to out heal the healbots while still having one of the best stuns and traits for bursting.

Tass can still put up good damage and has excellent utility. But I would not consider him a solo support.

She and tass were changed explicitly because of how qm works and to mitigate complaints in this arena; both were already picked at higher lvls of play (imagine italics here) w/ particular usages in mind. That to me is the main lack in hots hero design, that because of a mode where you have no hand in comp creation heroes all have to attempt to adhere to this one-size-fits-all vacuum in a role context. Theres no freedom in the designs and the uniqueness of heroes kind of are variations on a theme rather than like specific entities.

Both can solo support prtty efficiently, tho i do feel that tyrande will get increased cd on sstalk or get bm removed, iunno.

Also ur right about lets see what they come up w/ next but it definitely feels really apparent that a healing gimmick will be packed into whatever kit happens

I think leoric was a really cool design tho
 
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