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[BreezyLimbo]

I recognize that Li-Ming may have a win-rate in the range that Blizzard are looking for. But averaged win-rates don't tell the whole story. Something may be balanced for average players but still be broken at the higher skill tiers, let alone the professional level. I'd be curious to know whether her metrics are consistent across those tiers, or whether she sees the same disparity that Lost Vikings and Cho'Gall presumably do.

And then there's all the other data points you can look at. Li-Ming does obscene damage relative to every other character/ability with little to no downsides or risks. It impacts every future hero design if her level of burst is considered the new normal. I just don't see a trade-off anywhere near comparable to Jaina/KTs lack of mobility/survivability. As far as I'm concerned, all her abilities should do half siege damage if the design philosophy is "hero killer".

Mhm, it depends at what stats they're looking at.

If they're looking at normal game stats, then chances are that many games will have mirror matches of Li-ming, so it'll give the illusion that she has a 50% win rate.

If they're looking at Hero League, then if she's going to be banned constantly, it's going to stagnate and stay the same.

 

[Syf]

blizzard have been chastised for their obsession over win-rate being their primary reasons for balance and they're just plugging their ears singing "la-la-la-la". they know its wrong but are too ashamed to admit it or something, maybe too prideful.

They do the same in sc2, "lol the win rate's good game must be balanced"

 

[Brawndo Addict]

Mhm, it depends at what stats they're looking at.

If they're looking at normal game stats, then chances are that many games will have mirror matches of Li-ming, so it'll give the illusion that she has a 50% win rate.

If they're looking at Hero League, then if she's going to be banned constantly, it's going to stagnate and stay the same.

I have to assume that they'll start factoring in pick/ban percentages now that it's fully integrated into Hero League. That's a pretty strong indicator of how the community ranks certain heroes, although I freely admit that players often mistakenly value heroes. But that's where professional picks/bans become useful metrics as well but with a much less populated scene there's not a ton of data there.

And sometimes it's better to respond to overwhelming perception even if the data says the community is wrong. I think Blizzard acknowledges that more intangible aspect when they mention "what's not fun to play against".

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

been playing a ton of thrall these days, what's his weakness? He even gets access to bolt but you pick it to get offensive sunderings.

 

[Milly79]

I think this is the one time I can agree that WR isn't everything. Li-Ming is stupidly OP.

Hardly any mana issues, except for resets.
Resets on kills.
Disintegrate range is somewhat long, but I don't know if this is really an issue.
Teleport. Okay this is really dumb and even more so that bolt is gone on the other mages. Can also talent into it doing damage, resetting and giving range, plus a shield? What the fuck.
Her Q is okay.
Orb is kinda dumb if it hits you at max range. It's sometimes really unavoidable.

I think this just says that Blizzard doesn't know what is really going on with their game. And the public outcry is pretty tame on Reddit. It's weird that more of the complaining is coming from GAF.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I think this is the one time I can agree that WR isn't everything. Li-Ming is stupidly OP.

Hardly any mana issues, except for resets.
Resets on kills.
Disintegrate range is somewhat long, but I don't know if this is really an issue.
Teleport. Okay this is really dumb and even more so that bolt is gone on the other mages. Can also talent into it doing damage, resetting and giving range, plus a shield? What the fuck.
Her Q is okay.
Orb is kinda dumb if it hits you at max range. It's sometimes really unavoidable.

I think this just says that Blizzard doesn't know what is really going on with their game. And the public outcry is pretty tame on Reddit. It's weird that more of the complaining is coming from GAF.

Every mage has shield talents even Magestad can talent into them. KT and Jaina both have mana talents so that should hardly be an issue either.

That means it mostly comes down to Teleport, where the problem seems to be the range. Blizzard could try moving illusionist to 20 or removing it altogether. That'd leave glass cannon as the viable option which does not only not make her less vulnerable but more vulnerable. Base range of teleport is just enough to get over a wall and hardly enough to get away easily from every fight.

Personally haven't been sold on calamity past day 1.

 

[brian!]

glass cannon isn't really a tradeoff unless you are playing against like zeratul or greymane (again, base kit design issue)

dunno where the dominance hate comes from, that talent is booty

I think she's op, but iunno she's like old kael to me I'm pretty content to just deal w/ her

bliz saying anything in public about balance is a pretty bad idea

 

[Milly79]

I don't see how you're not sold on it. You turn a non-damage ability into a damage ability. You then talent into the 13 range and reset and you're in and out like nobodies business.

 

[Maledict]

The most I fear Li-Ming is when she goes full glass cannon build - which means no dominance, no illusionist, and no shield on teleport. She then stands at the pack flinging orbs and missiles, and if they connect someone dies. It's a ridiculous and dumb amount of damage that can be spammed a lot, and unless you have a well-coordinated team who can dive her hard and fast she will usually end up on top.

that's my main issue with her - she's a lot easier to play than they said, and combatting her requires greater skill than her dumb long range glass cannon build.

 

[jaundicejuice]

I've taken to simply playing a lot of Raynor lately. His right-click range is the best in the game and build diversity are pretty solid. You can build into an early sustain, late-game burst damage build, a right-click damage build, and a ridiculous push build. He's boring as shit to play but it works.

been playing a ton of thrall these days, what's his weakness? He even gets access to bolt but you pick it to get offensive sunderings.

Thrall's only real downside is that he's largely a mono-build hero and that his Windfury build takes longer to come online than it used because of a talent re-shuffle. You can bully him with range early and be fine so long as he doesn't root you. If you can CC him during Windfury, you can shut down his sustain. He starts to come online with 7 and by 13 he can start getting out of control.


Arcane Orb has no telegraph if cast correctly and it hits like a mack truck. You can game Arcane Orb a bit in laning by making Li-Ming choose between harassing you or hitting the creep wave with Orb and Missiles but this puts you at risk more than it does Li-Ming because of her teleport. Unless there's a coordinated gank on your side with a lot of CC and burst.

Even if you think Dominance is shit (picked 61% of the time), it and her trait should not function off of proximity. She should have to damage a hero to gain a partial CD reset from a heroes death, she should have to kill a hero for the full reset. Someone else kills an enemy hero, boom she gets 1/4 health at level 4, boom her abiolities resets and the too safe ult comes out again. She gets too much for free.

 

[Milly79]

Thrall also has a CL build w/ follow thru that is really good. Windfury isn't the only option, or the only reason for his sustain.

 

[Ketch]

That means it mostly comes down to Teleport, where the problem seems to be the range. Blizzard could try moving illusionist to 20 or removing it altogether. That'd leave glass cannon as the viable option which does not only not make her less vulnerable but more vulnerable. Base range of teleport is just enough to get over a wall and hardly enough to get away easily from every fight.

I definitely feel like it's the CD and not the range. Like if she blinks and then you can catch her it's fine... it's like any other mobility skill in the game. Except her's is on like a 5 second cooldown, so you gotta catch her, and then catch her again, and then sometimes catch her a third time. it's rediculous.

Thrall's weakness is that he has to run up to people do real damage and his escape is weak/tied to his damage... Like you can't WF to close the distance safely in a lot of situations. But I agree he's a bit strong right now as well. They could increase mana cost of CL, reduce the move speed granted by WF or adjust sunder a bit... I'd be fine with all of those.

 

[brian!]

cl build is superior in most situations too
playing around thrall's w cd helps a lot but really the main thing to do is position well, he's pretty weak against good positioning
like play against him like you would sonya but you can also blow him up more easily

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The most I fear Li-Ming is when she goes full glass cannon build - which means no dominance, no illusionist, and no shield on teleport. She then stands at the pack flinging orbs and missiles, and if they connect someone dies. It's a ridiculous and dumb amount of damage that can be spammed a lot, and unless you have a well-coordinated team who can dive her hard and fast she will usually end up on top.

that's my main issue with her - she's a lot easier to play than they said, and combatting her requires greater skill than her dumb long range glass cannon build.

That I can second.
Dominance is basically for QM when you don't get a healer or when you're facing vikings, murky and or Rexxar which just means free kills.

I don't see how you're not sold on it. You turn a non-damage ability into a damage ability. You then talent into the 13 range and reset and you're in and out like nobodies business.

Or you're in stunned and dead. It's just nothing I ever do, I teleport away from danger or to reposition, neither case would be enhanced by calamity. I pick it against sticky heroes for the most part.

cl build is superior in most situations too
playing around thrall's w cd helps a lot but really the main thing to do is position well, he's pretty weak against good positioning
like play against him like you would sonya but you can also blow him up more easily

I definitely feel like it's the CD and not the range. Like if she blinks and then you can catch her it's fine... it's like any other mobility skill in the game. Except her's is on like a 5 second cooldown, so you gotta catch her, and then catch her again, and then sometimes catch her a third time. it's rediculous.

Thrall's weakness is that he has to run up to people do real damage and his escape is weak/tied to his damage... Like you can't WF to close the distance safely in a lot of situations. But I agree he's a bit strong right now as well. They could increase mana cost of CL, reduce the move speed granted by WF or adjust sunder a bit... I'd be fine with all of those.

issue with that is, Thrall is doing just fine poking w/ his Q and then once an opportunity arises engage hard with Sundering, or if things go sour just disengage with it.

Teleport CD is another option to look at but w/o taking away the increased range she'll always be able to teleport over terrain.

 

[brian!]

i think thrall is really strong but I have no problem w/ that

 

[Milly79]

Yeah I get the whole stun argument. But I know damn well at your level that isn't happening. It hardly happens at 3k+

 

[brian!]

the idea that you have to use your ult to get out of a bad situation isnt really a plus to me, but i get what ur saying, I don't really think this changes the things he is weak or strong against

i def don't think he's ban worthy w/ xul, li ming, falstad, big boi warriors on the board, but if you think they are gesturing towards picking him w/ their picks sure
he is basically more utility/dmg sonya to me, less tanky

 

[Milly79]

Why are we even discussing Thrall? He's fine.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah I get the whole stun argument. But I know damn well at your level that isn't happening. It hardly happens at 3k+

Can't deny that but at my level calamity is just a trap that'll make players be more aggressive than they should be.

Why are we even discussing Thrall? He's fine.

Because the Li Ming discussion seems to resolve about her not having weaknesses more than that she's braindead easy to be good with, I wondered what Thrall's weakness is.

 

[brian!]

thrall's weakness is that he's a squishy melee
i like discussing random heroes, thats my shit ppl
a cool discussion could be the effect of self-sustain on how powerful a melee assassin is, the most powerful ones atm can either solo lane or pretty much take care of themselves

li ming has plenty of weaknesses too, she's just missing an important one

also I dunno if we can sign up for this aram thing w/o a full team, I thought maybe you could just sign some ppl up and theyd toss you into a team but it doesn't look like it

 

[Ketch]

Why are we even discussing Thrall? He's fine.

Yea, I don't think he's really an issue. I do think he's the best melee assassin in the game now, but I was just trying to identify what his "core weakness" is. And I think it's just that he's melee pretty much, no real escapes. I wouldn't be surprised to see blink taken from him as well.

Who are the other powerful melee assassin's? Sonya, and Zeratul. Zera's built in escape and Sonya's tankyness/escapes through whirlwind & later mystical spear. I think that the reason some melee assassins are bad is that they are too squishy for having to hard engage. And then it's not that they're bad per se, just that they're much much harder to play by comparison and easier to punish. It'll be interesting to see where the new illidan ends up at, I think he's got some very good disengage options now, and that he will be more forgiving to play in general.

As an aside, I think that a lot of warriors have these same issues which is what keeps them from being top tier, but they can still see play because their defense makes them more forgiving.

What times are the ARAM thing going down at?


I think that "free escapes" in heroes are a lot worse for the game though because of no items / gold mechanic. Like prolonging the game just makes it more boring instead of building to some point.

 

[brian!]

tbh im for keeping bolt on everyone, i love that shit
i played league though, so the "free escape" stuff flies past me immediately

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I've recently watched a couple league games and every time I think now they are forced to fight, people just fly all over the place and nothing happens.

 

[brian!]

yeah it's awesome lol
both micro/macro are weighed much more heavily in that game

 

[jaundicejuice]

Is Dehaka worth buying at 15k? Or should I just wait for the price drop to 10k. He seems pretty underwhelming so far.

I think this just says that Blizzard doesn't know what is really going on with their game. And the public outcry is pretty tame on Reddit. It's weird that more of the complaining is coming from GAF.

The amount of whining over Chain Bomb and Ignite and the relative silence over Li-Ming's mobility, range and burst is confusing.

 

[Milly79]

There's nothing wrong with there being a best melee assassin. In a perfect world they'd all be as viable as Thrall (basically any comp). We're still in a long spell with Li-Ming being the best ranged, but there's quite a few other options now. Every melee is gonna have a weakness regardless.

 

[Ketch]

I think because Li-Ming is easier to play that there are more people that "main" her and as such more people are brain washed into thinking she doesn't need adjustments.

I don't know if I totally agree with you there Milly. Like I don't really think Thrall is really that OP or anything, but I think ideally you'd want heroes (including melee assassins) to be "best" in specific situations... and right now it's kind of like thrall or sonya are good anytime you want a bruiser, and then everybody else is either useless or extremely niche. I don't think zera totally counts as a melee assassin in this sense, but again he's pretty good in pretty much any situation.

 

[kirblar]

Thrall's weakness is inconsistent self-sustain, like most of the Melee assassins.

Li-Ming's ranges on her abilities are just incredibly dumb. Everything goes too far.

 

[Milly79]

I agree, Ketch. Ran into one of those today that told me Illidan is as easy as Li-Ming, meanwhile she died just as much as I did. Granted, I did shit all for hero damage. They had Hammer, Li Li, KT and Kerrigan. I literally couldn't get in at all. Qruul went SSS on Khara and our Uther decided Divine Storm was a great idea.

I got called a retard, n***** and a f*****.

 

[brian!]

yeah, it's why low health/glass cannon don't really affect her besides certain cases

I wouldnt say thrall's sustain is inconsistent but he does flounder w/o a support

fuck I just did that backwards

 

[jaundicejuice]

MOBA's, keepin' it classy.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Well it'd at least make Li Ming more punishable in draft, if you had to go glass cannon, and so your comp had to be able to turtle up more.

 

[Ketch]

Yes clearly. I can tell by the way you play illidan.

Continuing about Li Ming, it's exactly how Familie said. yea maybe dominance, diamond skin calamity whatever aren't optimal, but the fact that you can just pick those talents and just shit on people anyway, is the problem. Like used to be somebody picks KT, other team picks Zeratul/Nova or whatever and you'd be like "damn, KT gonna have a hard game". but with Li Ming it's like it doesnt' matter what you pick, she's still going to push all of her buttons on CD and stand wherever she wants, except now she'll get dominance and some blink talents instead of being greedy as fuck.

Even if you look at something like Frost armor on Jaina, which is a REALLY good situational defense talent, you still have to give up something substantial to take that talent. But on Li Ming it just doesn't matter, because she does so much damage already. That was the problem with KT back in the day aswell, like you didn't need to actually DO anything, as long as you stayed alive then infinite hero damage is bestowed upon you. Except Li Ming is much harder to kill, and can talent to be even harder to kill... the best you can hope for in a lot of cases (besides a bad/greedy Li Ming player) is to scare her away from the fight.

 

[Alur]

tbh im for keeping bolt on everyone, i love that shit
i played league though, so the "free escape" stuff flies past me immediately

I'm down with Bolt on everyone. Even down with it being baseline if they wanted to do that. I'm just not down with it in a scenario like KT's where he had that huge shield + Bolt so he was WAAAYYYY more tanky than intended. He needed to lose one or the other. Could've gotten rid of the shield if you ask me, but I'm fine with what they did. Can't say Jaina was in a spot where she could handle the same treatment, though.

Is Dehaka worth buying at 15k? Or should I just wait for the price drop to 10k. He seems pretty underwhelming so far.

Dehaka is going to be another in a line of heroes that are good in competitive and bad for plebs. The pros I've heard talk about it range from "he has a place" to "he's straight up fucking broken", but Milly said his first day winrate for plebs in HL was 44%. Just requires too much coordination than what you typically see in normal games. Maybe as the brackets go up he'll be better, I dunno, but I'd be shocked if he has a decent winrate below Diamond and probably not even below Master. He's fun though.

I agree, Ketch. Ran into one of those today that told me Illidan is as easy as Li-Ming, meanwhile she died just as much as I did. Granted, I did shit all for hero damage. They had Hammer, Li Li, KT and Kerrigan. I literally couldn't get in at all. Qruul went SSS on Khara and our Uther decided Divine Storm was a great idea.

I got called a retard, n***** and a f*****.

That was a game. We have Uther and me (Khara). Says he's going piano Uther, I still went heal trait at 1 just for the sustain. Went SSS and he never picked anything...turns out he got Divine Storm when he could never get near anyone thanks to Hammer and KT/Kerrigan CC. GG.

 

[brian!]

Well it'd at least make Li Ming more punishable in draft, if you had to go glass cannon, and so your comp had to be able to turtle up more.

i think it'd def shift the hl meta more tanky which would be interesting

 

[Ketch]

The two things I think Dahaka has got going for him in lower level play is that he can global teleport for soaking and even without a good follow up drag is a LONG stun.

 

[brian!]

yeah i was pretty surprised that he has a waveclear talent

 

[jaundicejuice]

Dehaka is going to be another in a line of heroes that are good in competitive and bad for plebs. The pros I've heard talk about it range from "he has a place" to "he's straight up fucking broken", but Milly said his first day winrate for plebs in HL was 44%. Just requires too much coordination than what you typically see in normal games. Maybe as the brackets go up he'll be better, I dunno, but I'd be shocked if he has a decent winrate below Diamond and probably not even below Master. He's fun though.

Ehhh, I'm almost at 15K, I'll just buy him with gold now I guess. If anything he might be fun to troll Abathur with. Grass mind games. Nothing like burrowing into a bunch of mines and getting slapped to death.

 

[Ketch]

just wait... 15k is such a rip off

did you guys know that the new dragon illidan skin changes color during the match? Like totally bad ass.

I like heal on ability damage, marked for death, hunt and bolt. it's pretty good.

I'm not sure if the damage from immolation heals me though.... I think it was, but it's hard to tell.

man, I forgot how much fun illidan is.


i guess that AMA is over now? Didn't get a response to my question =(

 

[God Enel]

Did they change something with vallas manacost? Today I played a game with her and was a lot of times out of mana?! this didnt happen to me before so much.

 

[kirblar]

Did they change something with vallas manacost? Today I played a game with her and was a lot of times out of mana?! this didnt happen to me before so much.

Nope, she's always been mana starved.

 

[God Enel]

Nope, she's always been mana starved.

Yeah she always was, but not as bad as today. maybe i was spamming shit too much.

 

[Milly79]

Going through the ama.

Gust is gonna get increased. Greymane's level 7 cocktail is getting reworked because it's too low of a skill cap.

 

[Zackat]

just wait... 15k is such a rip off

did you guys know that the new dragon illidan skin changes color during the match? Like totally bad ass.

I like heal on ability damage, marked for death, hunt and bolt. it's pretty good.

I'm not sure if the damage from immolation heals me though.... I think it was, but it's hard to tell.

man, I forgot how much fun illidan is.


i guess that AMA is over now? Didn't get a response to my question =(

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KwfGdJIzYZs

 

[Ketch]

that's pretty bad ass

 

[scoobs]

Man, Greymane is a finely balanced hero. I wish they'd leave him alone.

 

[Indignate]

Mind Control is fun.

 

[Venus Van Dam]

The most I fear Li-Ming is when she goes full glass cannon build - which means no dominance, no illusionist, and no shield on teleport. She then stands at the pack flinging orbs and missiles, and if they connect someone dies. It's a ridiculous and dumb amount of damage that can be spammed a lot, and unless you have a well-coordinated team who can dive her hard and fast she will usually end up on top.

that's my main issue with her - she's a lot easier to play than they said, and combatting her requires greater skill than her dumb long range glass cannon build.

Totally agree with you. Maybe redesign her W so the longer the orb, the weaker it gets?

 

[Alur]

I like the W getting weaker with range as a way to solve her immense range. It wouldn't even have to be a tremendous drop, just enough to encourage play that was risky enough to compensate for having a 5 second cooldown blink.

 

[BreezyLimbo]

just wait... 15k is such a rip off

did you guys know that the new dragon illidan skin changes color during the match? Like totally bad ass.

I like heal on ability damage, marked for death, hunt and bolt. it's pretty good.

I'm not sure if the damage from immolation heals me though.... I think it was, but it's hard to tell.

man, I forgot how much fun illidan is.


i guess that AMA is over now? Didn't get a response to my question =(

Wait

How does it change? oh my god

How does it change? i NEED DETAILS