Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
- Status
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
She has the option for a slow on her Q at 16
Once they hit ten the other team didn't score once.
Holy shit Fnatic going Syl + 2 Tank + Falstad AGAIN
Will they never learn?
edit: Another Sylvanas. They're totally not keeping this roster going forward, someone can't/won't play anything else.
They have a DPS!
Can't believe Fnatic are 1 game off not qualifying for Blizzcon. I was convinced they would win this one - they looked the strongest team last time around.
EDIT: casters just pointed out - no Illidan, no Sonya, no Thrall. And they weren't being banned either.
Can't believe Fnatic are 1 game off not qualifying for Blizzcon. I was convinced they would win this one - they looked the strongest team last time around.
EDIT: casters just pointed out - no Illidan, no Sonya, no Thrall. And they weren't being banned either.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Has Zagara been drafted
Shes so good and works ever time
Fnatic sucks.
Shes so good and works ever time
Fnatic sucks.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
What the fuck. A well played zag can dominate in siege, damage, and experience gain.
And shes mostly fire and forget-you can harass without having to land shit all the time.
She's been banned a lot, and was played earlier.
That special sylvanas strat where you don't attack buildings. GG
Stitches in this match is a good example of my issues with talents. Like, stitches with every damage talent still cannot be played as damage. Like it just down right sucks. So why even have any of those talents in the game at all? Like what is the point of having slam damage talents if picking them is objectively wrong.
I know that we're sick of comparing this game to dota, but bear with me pls. In dota, you can play a character how ever you want and make it work. Like there's heroes that are traditionally hard carries, but can realistically be played as support with the right skill and item build. This same kind of thing should be possible in heroes of the storm. They have multiple talents per tier, even multiple heroic abilities, it's just that most of them are so fucking weak that they have no impact on how you play a hero. When there's been instances of talents changing playstyle they get removed or nerfed.
They have talents in HotS that pretend to offer verity in play style or strategy, but they're actually terrible. instead of increasing the possibilities they actually end up just drastically limiting it. Because when there's best in slot talents you end up with best in slot heroes which leads to one optimal way to play the game. Hero bans and picks just serve as an obstacle to reaching the one optimal way to play the game instead of as a tool to increase the chances of one strategy beating a different strategy. So the meta becomes stale, and the game gets boring and predictable.
A stitches that picks all damage talents should do just as much (or at least close enough to be viable) damage as an assassin, but then also be just as easy to kill.
Stitches in this match is a good example of my issues with talents. Like, stitches with every damage talent still cannot be played as damage. Like it just down right sucks. So why even have any of those talents in the game at all? Like what is the point of having slam damage talents if picking them is objectively wrong.
I know that we're sick of comparing this game to dota, but bear with me pls. In dota, you can play a character how ever you want and make it work. Like there's heroes that are traditionally hard carries, but can realistically be played as support with the right skill and item build. This same kind of thing should be possible in heroes of the storm. They have multiple talents per tier, even multiple heroic abilities, it's just that most of them are so fucking weak that they have no impact on how you play a hero. When there's been instances of talents changing playstyle they get removed or nerfed.
They have talents in HotS that pretend to offer verity in play style or strategy, but they're actually terrible. instead of increasing the possibilities they actually end up just drastically limiting it. Because when there's best in slot talents you end up with best in slot heroes which leads to one optimal way to play the game. Hero bans and picks just serve as an obstacle to reaching the one optimal way to play the game instead of as a tool to increase the chances of one strategy beating a different strategy. So the meta becomes stale, and the game gets boring and predictable.
A stitches that picks all damage talents should do just as much (or at least close enough to be viable) damage as an assassin, but then also be just as easy to kill.
I don't think that's the intent of the talent system though. It would make quick match nonviable, but also even normal solo drafting would become an absolute pain. The talent system is suppossed to allow you flexibility within your role - not change role.
And there are good reasons to pick the damage talents on stitches. They get picked at the very highest level of play? JPL has rocked a pure slam / damage build on stitches multiple times.
I agree with what your saying about the current talent system, I'm saying that it's bad for the game. I think that Quick match and roles is also bad for the game.
If you pick a tank to fill the tank role then they should pick the tank talents or they fucked up. If you pick a tank to fill the damage role you fucked up.
It's currently not setup where you can pick a hero and talent them to fit a role, which is how we end up with hero kits that are bad or don't make sense. Like if you start from the perspective of filling the tank role, then you can determine that disables and survivability are the most important factors for a tank, then the heroes with the best disables and survivability make the best tanks, and then any hero labeled tank that doesn't have those abilities is automatically not as good.
Alternatively, if you start from the perspective of having a hero that's fun to play, and then give that hero talents that let them be viable in multiple roles then it doesn't matter if there's better tanks available because that hero can fit multiple roles. This game would be a million times better if every hero wasn't already saddled with a pre defined role and if the talent system actually let you have multiple play styles for each hero. There would be ripple effects starting from any one specific hero that would effect the entire meta, instead of what we have now where if a new hero comes out and isn't as good or better at the predefined role then they just don't see play.
There's no gold or items in hots so you obviously wouldn't have these problems. Actually, The point I'm making doesn't have anything to do items or gold at all. Why are you being dismissive? Do you think the balance/ meta in hots is in a good place? Please elaborate.
Talents are close to items, but more like if you were assigned a set of conplete items to choose from. There are no item components in hots (unless u kinda stress quest talents but thats a whole other conversation). So the design is really heavily dependent on whether the design of the talent is good or not and whether the talent makes sense at the tier and when you are expected to reach it. I dont think there is anything wrong w/ this, but it's definitely harder to pull off than an item situation where choice/timing is more in the hands of the player and also it's just not very successful in its current iteration. Not really a bad idea tho for the type of game being made here
A lot of it is role stuff like ketch is saying and what a lot of ppl kind of just take for granted in this game (as they should, since blizz keeps doubling down on roles defining the game and why prtty much all drafts, from hl to competitive, boil down to picking "best in slot" and then building the meta around kind of taken for granted picks). Itd be cool if heroes were more specialized and unique but it isnt what they are going for and even if they wanted to its hard for them to break the mold w/ all they have done already.
I dont really think there is anything wrong with looking to other games for comparison as long as the idea that they are different beasts is maintained
Also the cool thing about supports in dota is that they dont need gold to be really game-changing, it's packed into their base kit. Conversely the cool thing about supports in hots is that they will never be behind their team or feel like they have to give up things and do their job worse, like it's prtty different design values.
A lot of it is role stuff like ketch is saying and what a lot of ppl kind of just take for granted in this game (as they should, since blizz keeps doubling down on roles defining the game and why prtty much all drafts, from hl to competitive, boil down to picking "best in slot" and then building the meta around kind of taken for granted picks). Itd be cool if heroes were more specialized and unique but it isnt what they are going for and even if they wanted to its hard for them to break the mold w/ all they have done already.
I dont really think there is anything wrong with looking to other games for comparison as long as the idea that they are different beasts is maintained
Also the cool thing about supports in dota is that they dont need gold to be really game-changing, it's packed into their base kit. Conversely the cool thing about supports in hots is that they will never be behind their team or feel like they have to give up things and do their job worse, like it's prtty different design values.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There are a few talents one could describe as transformative but they are usually non viable or just much worse than the others. I do think it's fine for some of them to be for casual and or quickmatch.
I think blizz probably dreamed about what ketch is describing w/ the roles becoming more blurred with talent choices shaping the hero towards different directions but in practice it's really hard to do something like this. The best they've done is probably li ming, but like every attempt they make towards this will be marred by the way talents are Actually used, which is just pick the strongest one that is also the safest
Which is part of why the want to make skills good and interesting straight up instead of slowly building up (valla w/ slow built into w vs. valla getting frost shot) makes sense to me. Sometimes i forget about talents and think man why are some base kits the most boring shit ever (valla w, pudge w, diablo w), but yeah i think they are intentionally bland and meant to "evolve" or whatever throughout the game. Like thrall in dota 2 (i dont know his dota 2 name, hes a supp) has a spell that is very hotslike in that it is just straight up 3 delayed lightning hits on a target you click, but they make it actually useful by making it give vision on a target, and that is how dota is designed. W/ hots youd get 3 lightning hits, thats it, and then talent options for the skill. So the character is less specialized by design but ostensibly given customization options (but again in practice often gets limited to the strongest in tier option)
Which is part of why the want to make skills good and interesting straight up instead of slowly building up (valla w/ slow built into w vs. valla getting frost shot) makes sense to me. Sometimes i forget about talents and think man why are some base kits the most boring shit ever (valla w, pudge w, diablo w), but yeah i think they are intentionally bland and meant to "evolve" or whatever throughout the game. Like thrall in dota 2 (i dont know his dota 2 name, hes a supp) has a spell that is very hotslike in that it is just straight up 3 delayed lightning hits on a target you click, but they make it actually useful by making it give vision on a target, and that is how dota is designed. W/ hots youd get 3 lightning hits, thats it, and then talent options for the skill. So the character is less specialized by design but ostensibly given customization options (but again in practice often gets limited to the strongest in tier option)
And the more heroes there are the harder it'll be to change anything on a system level.
The frustrating part is that they have talents there, that you look at and see a dps build or a tank build, but they're just not good enough and they never get buffed. Like over and over and over the talents with low pick rates are ignored or talents that just need a slight numbers buff to be viable don't ever get it.
@brian. Your thrall example is exactly what I mean. Why not make all talent choices for thralls three lightning hits just as viable as the one that's deemed the best? Obviously, it's hard... But they can make adjustments until it's better. It needs to be like increased damage, increased range, or gives vision for an extended period all on the same tier and all equally as strong. Then if damage is always getting picked you buff the range and vision of the other options until they are just as desirable.
Obviously just an example, but hopefully you get what I mean.
The frustrating part is that they have talents there, that you look at and see a dps build or a tank build, but they're just not good enough and they never get buffed. Like over and over and over the talents with low pick rates are ignored or talents that just need a slight numbers buff to be viable don't ever get it.
@brian. Your thrall example is exactly what I mean. Why not make all talent choices for thralls three lightning hits just as viable as the one that's deemed the best? Obviously, it's hard... But they can make adjustments until it's better. It needs to be like increased damage, increased range, or gives vision for an extended period all on the same tier and all equally as strong. Then if damage is always getting picked you buff the range and vision of the other options until they are just as desirable.
Obviously just an example, but hopefully you get what I mean.
I think, in general, they have done better with the majority of skills post Blizzcon. There are some misses, but some really good hits too. My frustration with them lately is how group reliant most of the recent releases have been
What you said about the best "x" who has "y" and "z" which are the most desired traits of "x" being the best pick is true. I'm not sure what they can do about it that would really truly shake things up, though. It's been true in every game I've played, but I'm also not a moba vet prior to this game. Even if they made 4 amazing talents per tier with a variety of choice I feel like it would still devolve into 1 or 2 min-max choices most likely.
What you said about the best "x" who has "y" and "z" which are the most desired traits of "x" being the best pick is true. I'm not sure what they can do about it that would really truly shake things up, though. It's been true in every game I've played, but I'm also not a moba vet prior to this game. Even if they made 4 amazing talents per tier with a variety of choice I feel like it would still devolve into 1 or 2 min-max choices most likely.
I feel like it's pretty impossible to have several options that are equally feasible, like I don't think blizz should even bother barking up that tree. it'd probably make more sense to have 1 option be good "in general" and then 2 other options that are good "in particular situations". so you can have something like choose between jaina e giving 5 percent ms for each person she hits, frost armor, or w first wave makes her passive hit harder. 1st option is instant easy value, 2nd option is situational, 3rd option is greedy and potentially needs your team to participate for value (keep em in place). but already I kind of have to rack my brain, i dunno what tier this would be at, and I have to think of like 76 different talents and potentially problematic permutations? fuuuuuuk that it's too hard, and it's why blizzard has no choice but to balance reactively and largely based on internal things like pickrate or external things like complaining
tbh tho, I care a lot more about hero pick rates than talent pick rates, like im pretty comfortable watching a hots game and knowing what talents are being picked. I get hype when zera is picked for vp or medic is picked for medivac (or just in general when medic gets picked because she is so specific), I get hype when greymane is let through and countered or when butcher is picked to counter warriors, like in general watching this game is still pretty fun
tbh tho, I care a lot more about hero pick rates than talent pick rates, like im pretty comfortable watching a hots game and knowing what talents are being picked. I get hype when zera is picked for vp or medic is picked for medivac (or just in general when medic gets picked because she is so specific), I get hype when greymane is let through and countered or when butcher is picked to counter warriors, like in general watching this game is still pretty fun
I feel you on that re: talents. That's why I kind of /boggle when Twitch chat clamors for them to show talents...90% or more of the time it's the same heroes with the same builds. I definitely get more excited when someone pulls out a Rexxar or Murky or other non-meta hero than I do when someone goes for a different heroic.
There's just so much of these games tied up in crowd control that (like Ketch said) whoever has the best CC combined the most utility in a role is almost always going to win out. A good portion of heroes have to be over the top in power before we get to see them used if they aren't possessing something CC related.
There's just so much of these games tied up in crowd control that (like Ketch said) whoever has the best CC combined the most utility in a role is almost always going to win out. A good portion of heroes have to be over the top in power before we get to see them used if they aren't possessing something CC related.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
There's always at least 1 hero among all of them that can have a variable build.
Say there's a zeratul, there's 3 distinguishable builds that change his playstyle rather fundamentally.
Then there's players you can just never know what they'll pick like Faye.
There's comps like solo Tassadar that require drastic changed to the standard builds.
There's always reason to show the talents.
Say there's a zeratul, there's 3 distinguishable builds that change his playstyle rather fundamentally.
Then there's players you can just never know what they'll pick like Faye.
There's comps like solo Tassadar that require drastic changed to the standard builds.
There's always reason to show the talents.
Sure, there's a reason, agreed, but the way Twitch chat/reddit get apoplectic over it seems overblown for the small amount of impact it really has on the viewing experience versus most regular viewer's inference of the situation/comps and what was likely chosen. Specifically back in the ahli overlay days when talents took up the majority of the bottom of the screen when shown. For me personally it was more distracting than helpful.
I also feel like that when something goes truly haywire/off the grid in a build, the casters always milk it so it rarely goes unnoticed.
I also feel like that when something goes truly haywire/off the grid in a build, the casters always milk it so it rarely goes unnoticed.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They are having showmatches on the new maps
https://www.twitch.tv/blizzard
Weird to be going on at the same time as Group B matches.
https://www.twitch.tv/blizzard
Weird to be going on at the same time as Group B matches.
Every time I listen to Core I'm filled with conflicting emotions.
On the one hand, it irks me how they are often oblivious to even common picks of heroes or news or other information. Particularly Scott, who you can tell is simply there as the Kaelaris of the program, only with less knowledge and due to his commitments even less playtime.
On the other hand, something about the naivete of the whole thing is endearing and I genuinely enjoy listening to them. I also feel like they speak a little better to the common player than THH, especially there for a long stretch when it was so bad. I'd probably rank them second now behind Into the Nexus with THH third, whereas once upon a time I would only listen to THH and not the others.
On the one hand, it irks me how they are often oblivious to even common picks of heroes or news or other information. Particularly Scott, who you can tell is simply there as the Kaelaris of the program, only with less knowledge and due to his commitments even less playtime.
On the other hand, something about the naivete of the whole thing is endearing and I genuinely enjoy listening to them. I also feel like they speak a little better to the common player than THH, especially there for a long stretch when it was so bad. I'd probably rank them second now behind Into the Nexus with THH third, whereas once upon a time I would only listen to THH and not the others.
Core is pretty good. I enjoy the side banter that goes on. It doesn't take itself too seriously at all. I do hate how Scott is completely oblivious to mostly everything. Bo knows what he's talking about for the most part and John is decently knowledgeable. The jeopardy spinoff they do is great.
TheSadRanger
Banned
Alarak looks pretty fun and interesting, but man does Zarya look boring as hell to play as.
I really don't like that they wasted two buttons just for a shield on herself and on someone else.
I really don't like that they wasted two buttons just for a shield on herself and on someone else.
Have you seen her trait? Damage those shields mitigate translates into increased damage for her (same as in Overwatch). That makes her far more interesting than just tossing up shields at every opportunity. She needs to wait for the right moments to shield for maximum effect.
Juggling those shields will be the difference between good/dece/bad Zarya's. To do it at a decent level isn't too bad (in OW), but to do it a high level you become a monster. Hopefully the same will be the case in HOTS.
It's sort of like remembering to move Auriel's blessing from hero to hero as necessary, only even on a crap DPS you get something with Auriel. If you mistime your shields with Zarya you just get dead and have no damage.
It's sort of like remembering to move Auriel's blessing from hero to hero as necessary, only even on a crap DPS you get something with Auriel. If you mistime your shields with Zarya you just get dead and have no damage.
They just have to be careful w/ the numbers cuz mobas are a bit more swingy than ow, if shes blocking a couple spells and gets charged up thats basically a won fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgdZWD6PSw zuna minidoc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcgdZWD6PSw zuna minidoc
I've downloaded this game today and played the tutorial for the first time today. I've never played a MOBA before so this is definitely something different. The tutorial felt easy but I'm sure that playing online against others will be a huge difference. I enjoy playing online games that involve teamwork so I think this will be a fun game for me.
So far the only character I have used is Raynor. He is only at level 4 since I have used done the tutorial and a couple practice games against the A.I. I bought the starter pack so my unlocked characters for online are Artanis, E.T.C, Jaina, Sonya, Sylvanas, Li Li, Li-Ming, Raynor, Tracer, Zagara, and Zeratul. I want to play around with those characters and the free, non-online charactesr, before buying any characters.
Does anyone have any tips/suggestions on where to start? I feel like I need to watch a few youtube tutorials in order to understand the different classes better. Also, how evil is this game to newcomers. I don't plan on going online for a little bit but when I do, should I expect to lose a lot early?
P.S- My Battle.Net is Josh5890#1468
So far the only character I have used is Raynor. He is only at level 4 since I have used done the tutorial and a couple practice games against the A.I. I bought the starter pack so my unlocked characters for online are Artanis, E.T.C, Jaina, Sonya, Sylvanas, Li Li, Li-Ming, Raynor, Tracer, Zagara, and Zeratul. I want to play around with those characters and the free, non-online charactesr, before buying any characters.
Does anyone have any tips/suggestions on where to start? I feel like I need to watch a few youtube tutorials in order to understand the different classes better. Also, how evil is this game to newcomers. I don't plan on going online for a little bit but when I do, should I expect to lose a lot early?
P.S- My Battle.Net is Josh5890#1468
WonderRade
Member
yeah vs AI is a great place to start as it lets you get familiar with mechanics and characters without having to worry about meshing with strangers yet.
The biggest thing to note is everyone has their own ideas and strats on each level and with each char so getting a group of 5 strangers to unify can be a difficult process sometimes. But patience and communication are key!
The biggest thing to note is everyone has their own ideas and strats on each level and with each char so getting a group of 5 strangers to unify can be a difficult process sometimes. But patience and communication are key!
- Status