All anyone needs to do to get in the middle of a group in Dota is buy a relatively inexpensive blink dagger. That said, ETC isn't much different than Tusk (in fact, Tusk is arguably worse than ETC since he's better at doing what you think ETC shouldn't do and doing more damage while he does) so let's make sure we're comparing apples to apples before raising concern over a kit.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
- Status
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Hah Dignitas down a game against a noname team.
First picking Arthas is a mistake when Tychus and Leoric are still around. Tychus in particular.
EDIT: Gritting my teeth, I return to ranked play to finish my placement matches. Have been avoiding it like the plague since unranked draft came out, but some of my group want to duo it. First game - first pick Gazlowe, then double pick tanks. Enemy team grabs Kerrigan and Kael'thas. Match descends into acrimony within minutes, not helped by the Gazlowe insulting everyone (with his **9** deaths), and the Arthas thinking that at level 8, when the enemy team is 10, the best thing to do is go solo a merc camp.
EDIT2: WTF was that bos sattempt. Dignitas are just pissing around at this point. dumb dumb dumb.
EDIT: Gritting my teeth, I return to ranked play to finish my placement matches. Have been avoiding it like the plague since unranked draft came out, but some of my group want to duo it. First game - first pick Gazlowe, then double pick tanks. Enemy team grabs Kerrigan and Kael'thas. Match descends into acrimony within minutes, not helped by the Gazlowe insulting everyone (with his **9** deaths), and the Arthas thinking that at level 8, when the enemy team is 10, the best thing to do is go solo a merc camp.
EDIT2: WTF was that bos sattempt. Dignitas are just pissing around at this point. dumb dumb dumb.
Also, if you guys are going to keep drawing comparisons between Dota and Hots then it bears pointing out that the archtype mechanics fundamentally operate in completely different ways.
In Dota, a "support" has a kit that is strong enough early game to not be item dependent and a "carry" has a kit that is item dependent early game and thus requires farming. If you look up the Dota roles and read their defining mechanics and match those up with the heroes you'll see what I am talking about when I say that their characteristics fall on one side or the other between being strong early game or late game.
Revamping traits to function similar to items won't fix the issues because our heroes have static roles and everyone starts out equally powerful (except a handful of heroes whose talents can scale over time because of last hits or collecting globes, etc. that kind of function like traditional carries).
Speaking from the perspective of a long time dota player, quest traits look like Blizzard's recognition that their initial use of talent trees can't manifest into an adequate way to control a hero's power curve a la dota items without the game becoming stale. TLV is one way of controlling a hero's power curve through time and Chromie's design does too but in the other direction. Then they experimented with structures and minions to try and control specialists' power curves.
As someone who plays supports frequently, my perspective on what happened when Blizzard gave them a thorough review wasn't that they thought everything was fine but rather they realized they didn't have a good idea of how to fix the problem. That is, they don't have a good sense of how to control a support's power curve other than adding/removing utility and then tuning/detuning their healing. That results in relegating their support heroes into relatively stale roles. A big problem now is that when they started they made healing so fundamental to the game's dynamics it's difficult to unwind its importance.
Anyway, the reason they can't simply have malleable roles via talents isn't because it would break the role or matchup system (because if you think about it, it would actually solve the issue of not having a very good healer or damage dealer in a QM or public game if you could simply talent into the deficient hero-space), but rather because it would throw the entire game's mechanics and balance into chaos.
In Dota, a "support" has a kit that is strong enough early game to not be item dependent and a "carry" has a kit that is item dependent early game and thus requires farming. If you look up the Dota roles and read their defining mechanics and match those up with the heroes you'll see what I am talking about when I say that their characteristics fall on one side or the other between being strong early game or late game.
Revamping traits to function similar to items won't fix the issues because our heroes have static roles and everyone starts out equally powerful (except a handful of heroes whose talents can scale over time because of last hits or collecting globes, etc. that kind of function like traditional carries).
Speaking from the perspective of a long time dota player, quest traits look like Blizzard's recognition that their initial use of talent trees can't manifest into an adequate way to control a hero's power curve a la dota items without the game becoming stale. TLV is one way of controlling a hero's power curve through time and Chromie's design does too but in the other direction. Then they experimented with structures and minions to try and control specialists' power curves.
As someone who plays supports frequently, my perspective on what happened when Blizzard gave them a thorough review wasn't that they thought everything was fine but rather they realized they didn't have a good idea of how to fix the problem. That is, they don't have a good sense of how to control a support's power curve other than adding/removing utility and then tuning/detuning their healing. That results in relegating their support heroes into relatively stale roles. A big problem now is that when they started they made healing so fundamental to the game's dynamics it's difficult to unwind its importance.
Anyway, the reason they can't simply have malleable roles via talents isn't because it would break the role or matchup system (because if you think about it, it would actually solve the issue of not having a very good healer or damage dealer in a QM or public game if you could simply talent into the deficient hero-space), but rather because it would throw the entire game's mechanics and balance into chaos.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
It finally happened Dignitas won with Illidan!!!
Damn VP into RoF is so savage. Very well played by Dignitas against a tough comp.
Damn VP into RoF is so savage. Very well played by Dignitas against a tough comp.
Yeah i tunneled on the mosh / black hole comparison, but its apples and oranges again where the counterplay to things lik etc q/mosh (positioning and uther) in heroes vs. tusk snowball and stuff (positioning, various hero counter, itemization) vary. Like for me "just within hots" q -> mosh/dshield is way too clean
Yeh i agree with all of this, the malleability they try to inject from talents mainly ends up superficial too. W/r/t role, like if you consider healing (or just to an extent, kits made per role earlier in development) you can kinda see how definitive those kits have become per role and how it has kinda stumped them since.
Quests are def an oddball in this game because they fuk w/ the teamwide and transparent power spikes that is kinda part of the core value of this game, and they inject slower play in a way not as feasible unless it becomes a little incidental. In the end a quest talent, in its current iteration, has basically ended up like every other talent, choose if best in slot.
Like raynor should be the bes late game carry w/ all the possible as boosts and hos range and executioner and stuff but he has to contend w/ mounts and map size and weak early and etc. And you still get seasoned too, it's the most powerful talent in that tier
__
As a side note to ppl in this thread, ive been playing a couple of dota games every night recently doing the all-hero challenge, it's really fun
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Are other teams running Zeratul Jaina?
Yes but they don't have the same team fighting capability - Dignitas were using that combo a year ago, they have the timing down perfectly. Other's don't, so it just doesn't work.
EDIT: Seriously, I think Fnatic have run the same comp every single match this entire tournament? It hasn't exactly been carrying them to victory - they must have really bad hero pool issues.
Yup. Double tank plus Syl. It's been fucking awful most games because they have no dps.
Solo Support Tass vs a Tyrael?
Yikes.
edit: Yep, moment Kerrigan lands a combo Tyrael Sancs and someone is dead, and it snowballs from there.
Fnatic is drafting and playing just like Tempo did before they broke up. Specifically Arthelon always being on Syl.
Slightly unrelated, but is there a petition I can sign or that we can get started to have Kaeyoh be a regular inclusion with Dunktrain and Jake? Outside of Glaurung and maybe one or two others, he's the most consistently entertaining and informative both. Jake brings the goofiness, Dunk brings the analysis, and Kaeyoh bridges the gap.
Yeah. They were trickling downward before that happened though- they exposed themselves to this kind of exodus risk unnecessarily.
Yeah kaeyoh is my fave caster/personality atm
Dignitas have a *really* bad habit of throwing matches on bosses. It's happened multiple times now. Alex needs to look again at how he is shot calling these things.
That wasn't even a shotcall, that was someone suiciding.
I look at a lot of video game user activity numbers all day, that LoL drop isn't just Overwatch. If it were just Overwatch, you'd expect to see it recover some.
Also, I hit 20 with Kerrigan today! I am so proud. I had to share with gaf because I know you are the only people anywhere I could tell this to who would relate. Feels good.
Also, I hit 20 with Kerrigan today! I am so proud. I had to share with gaf because I know you are the only people anywhere I could tell this to who would relate. Feels good.
This is what happened in June:
http://na.leagueoflegends.com/en/news/game-updates/features/dynamic-queue-and-future-league
Great job. I did the same with KT. I wish it were more rewarding.
GG Dignitas - they took Misfits apart in the last two games.
EU Teams, stop drafting Sylvanas as your main ranged dps in a two tank comp. It does not work. She is not an assassin.
I thought it was just Fnatic at first, but Misfits were drafting exactly the same. Something has been going on in scrims that has convinced them it works - and Dignitas seemed to be the only team that figured out how to beat it.
EU Teams, stop drafting Sylvanas as your main ranged dps in a two tank comp. It does not work. She is not an assassin.
I thought it was just Fnatic at first, but Misfits were drafting exactly the same. Something has been going on in scrims that has convinced them it works - and Dignitas seemed to be the only team that figured out how to beat it.
https://www.reddit.com/r/heroesofth...mescom_interview_with_kaéo_milker_and_travis/ Interview on upcoming stuff.
No maps being removed, which is super duper dumb.
This makes me suspect Thrall and Tyrande are dropping to 4K.\
edit: Will write it up later today, but Malfurion really needs an overhaul so he actually has a Resto Druid healing setup where he's HOTing the team.
No maps being removed, which is super duper dumb.
This makes me suspect Thrall and Tyrande are dropping to 4K.\
edit: Will write it up later today, but Malfurion really needs an overhaul so he actually has a Resto Druid healing setup where he's HOTing the team.
Dunno what a resto druid is but the thing i like most about malf is that he has access to zoning via his aoe and a mana restore thing. I think they could make cool interactions w/ his hot via talents but in the end his current iteration of hot is just another heal gimmick to me
This may explain your disconnect from a lot of hero designs.
Actually i had like a mini-epiphany late last year when they had the $5 sale on wow, i played for like 2 weeks and was like ohhhhh so this is where they are coming from lol. My thoughts on hots are way more lol/dota backed for sure though.
The queue thing where you group up into a mini dungeon was particularly evocative lol
The queue thing where you group up into a mini dungeon was particularly evocative lol
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Fnatic baited the race then recalled ingeniously. Misfits got greedy when they could have just taken the mid keep then recalled.
Fnatic is going to Blizzcon again. New year, same old.
Edit: oh they just got lucky, I guess it's late.
Fnatic is going to Blizzcon again. New year, same old.
Edit: oh they just got lucky, I guess it's late.
No, but Stuns and other CC no longer stop it.
It's a buff that doesn't make it stupid and allows for counter-play.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Uncleansable would be the dumbest thing ever. Even lower ranks can cleanse an octo grab.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've had real issues laning against one with Zag in a match recently but that was also my first game with Zag since her rework so idk.
Pilgrimzero
Member
I finally (accidentally) played a game with other humans. I'm all of level 6 btw.
Used Raynor, I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing aside from follow the other guy and shoot at the red guys. I died more than I did in AI mode.
It was actually a lot more fun playing with and against other humans.
Raynor was fairly easy to use. Might give Tracer a try, though I'm sure she less point and click and requires more skill.
Used Raynor, I wasn't exactly sure what I was doing aside from follow the other guy and shoot at the red guys. I died more than I did in AI mode.
It was actually a lot more fun playing with and against other humans.
Raynor was fairly easy to use. Might give Tracer a try, though I'm sure she less point and click and requires more skill.
Yeah, I mained him for a good bit during his Living The Dream hayday prior to Cleanse going on every support, and I bet I died 60-75% of the time I landed Octograb. Sometimes it would get reset, but usually it's a non-issue. It's the fact that he is so completely countered by so many heroes now, and continues to see more heroes added who shit on him.
- Status
Similar threads
- Poll