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Heroes of the Storm |OT2| Imitation is the sincerest form of flattery
- Thread starter Nirolak
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I'd argue you discard winrate as much as you get bothered by other people flaunting it, though.
The truth is somewhere in the middle. It's a useful tool. The majority of the time winrate gives us confirmation on what we already assumed (ie: not enough damage, talent removal/additions hurt/didn't help enough). Then there's like another 25-40% of the time where it's misleading and due to other factors like coordination, meta being unkind to the hero but the hero is actually in good shape otherwise, etc.
The truth is somewhere in the middle. It's a useful tool. The majority of the time winrate gives us confirmation on what we already assumed (ie: not enough damage, talent removal/additions hurt/didn't help enough). Then there's like another 25-40% of the time where it's misleading and due to other factors like coordination, meta being unkind to the hero but the hero is actually in good shape otherwise, etc.
Yeah basically winrate exists to be interpreted, the reason i usually discard winrate is because it literally only says "x has y% winrate here", which gives little reason as to why something is the way it is, like u gotta dig in different spots for real info/theory. There is very low amounts of context w/ winrate talk and ppl like mac and srey will get tons of shit for not saying that lili or johanna are the bes even when they give good reasons, like winrate has become this cloud-like effect of misinformation/stopping critical thought. Winrate is useful mainly (to me) for identifying outliers and possible problematics, and that is pretty good too
thekillermuffin
Member
I tend to only take winrate into consideration when looking at the meta if they're insane outliers. Like if they're at 30% or 60%, changes should be made. Otherwise, things are constantly shifting enough that said changes don't always need to be made.
I mean look at Dehaka. Dude's barely played, but then the mount speed changes bring him back in. Is he the absolute best? No, but his mobility destroys on certain maps and can be an incredible pick. Winrate doesn't really illustrate that picture.
thekillermuffin
Member
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f7KPPdfRs-o
Zarya spotlight! Can't wait to play her. Played one on Warhead Junction in PTR and didn't do so well, but she's my favorite in Overwatch proper.
Zarya spotlight! Can't wait to play her. Played one on Warhead Junction in PTR and didn't do so well, but she's my favorite in Overwatch proper.
jaundicejuice
Member
Dehaka is one of the most frequently used tanks in the matches I've been playing. It's rare to play a match where Dehaka isn't a tank on at least one of the two teams.
Interesting - Zarya's expulsion zone heroic's damage is based off of her energy level too.
Damn, that's cool, i kinda want him to be a thing since his kit is pretty unorthodox and flank/pick heavy
thekillermuffin
Member
I saw him in a ton of matches this weekend, and I started getting scared every time I heard his emerging sound effect go off.
In a HL match on Cursed Hollow, my teammates drafted Brightwing and Dehaka. With Dehaka burrowing and Brightwing blinking to him, we were first to every tribute. We ended up losing due to a few rough teamfights in the late game, but the duo is something I really want to explore more given the mount speed changes.
jaundicejuice
Member
On Braxxis Holdout I've been encounter teams with a lot of global assholes--Dehaka, Brightwing, Falstad, Hunt Illidan and Stage Dive ETC. They can quickly get from one objective to the other and crush a team that isn't as mobile and trying to split hold the points.
Turdburger
Member
Will there be another hero release before Blizzcon?
jaundicejuice
Member
There will probably be more announcements about upcoming content, but beyond Zarya, probably not.
That'd be more than a month away for Blizzcon once she drops tomorrow. That's a long gap for them, but perhaps it's why they did the whole event since it goes on through October 18th I believe.
I wonder if they will drop a hero as part of Blizzcon, then, similar to how Cho'Gall was dropped. I can't remember how quickly we had him. Like a few days later or was he up during the event?
I wonder if they will drop a hero as part of Blizzcon, then, similar to how Cho'Gall was dropped. I can't remember how quickly we had him. Like a few days later or was he up during the event?
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
they did the whole infecting where people attending blizzcon, and randoms, got him and could spread him with others
scoobs
Member
I'm pretty confident we will see the Blademaster release before blizzcon. His teaser is in the game already. Maybe he'll be the hero at Blizzcon that is "and he's available.. RIGHT NOW!"
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Srey is streaming their scrims right now. Playing Alarak!
https://www.twitch.tv/sreylol
https://www.twitch.tv/sreylol
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I dunno I've come to like Srey but nowadays all but Bakery are real salty players altogether.
Bakery streams are GOAT btw.
Like the amount "retards", "monkey", etc. is staggering in almost all streams.
Khroen also seems pretty positive.
Bakery streams are GOAT btw.
Like the amount "retards", "monkey", etc. is staggering in almost all streams.
Khroen also seems pretty positive.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I've been dreaming about getting Tyrael master for forever now.
Agreed. Not that I haven't said stupid shit when I was younger, but after having a child with special needs (and generally growing up) I've mostly learned my lesson in that regard. Can't say I'm a fan of throwing out casual "retard" remarks now because I know that's something that my son will have to face when he's older. Same goes for a few other commonly used phrases in gaming/streaming culture, though those are unrelated to my own personal experience, just that they are simply cringe-worthy, ignorant, or juvenile.
Several of the streamers do make me facepalm from time to time with some of the stuff they say (including Mac), but I don't get too bothered by it mostly. I guess I take the tack that they'll learn as they get a little more experience and get older, and ultimately most of their audience says the same shit so there's no real way to educate them til they have a negative experience themselves.
I do wish Bakery streamed regularly. I like Khroen's streams. I also like Kaeyoh's streams as well.
I mean you don't have to look hard to find people using homophobic slurs, racial slurs, or being misogynistic in game or on Twitch. Hell, some of the most popular streamers (for other games/variety games), being toxic af is their whole shtick.
Like how Lightknight would get 100-300 viewers even though it was just him being an asshole to people in chat/in game for the duration.
Like how Lightknight would get 100-300 viewers even though it was just him being an asshole to people in chat/in game for the duration.
Patch is live and patch notes are up. And is it just me or are there patch notes in there that weren't on the PTR? I honestly don't remember the Gul'Dan and Chromie buffs, for instance.
Edit - Okay, yeah, the Tychus Odin buff (now has resistant for duration of Odin) wasn't in there before.
Edit - Okay, yeah, the Tychus Odin buff (now has resistant for duration of Odin) wasn't in there before.
thekillermuffin
Member
Yeah anything in gold/orange text wasn't in the PTR. I like that they started doing that, easy to pick out the new stuff. Either way, these changes look great.
Yeah, I know, but nothing was that color in the patch notes in the launcher.
For some reason I miss the days where Tychus just had two lifebars when he summoned Odin. It was hilarious and fun ... but also unfortunately too op. I hope this buff brings it back in the meta.
lol at Blizzard increasing Chromie's spell ranges and health after they already buffed her damage...
Also removing Tychus' level 1 talent shrug it off only to now add it to Odin... Odin's problem, imo, is the long cast times and lack of synergy with his minigun trait and current design. Also the other team usually/should disengage or kite your abilities, making resistance useless, or it was a panic Odin in which case you're likely dead anyway.
Not knowing his DPS numbers off the top off my head, I think it'll largely come down to the map/objective. Single target DPS = Drakken drill and AOE damage/zoning = Odin.
Li Li's buff to shake it off seems OP and makes her an even better dive/engage comp counter and bully. I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Also removing Tychus' level 1 talent shrug it off only to now add it to Odin... Odin's problem, imo, is the long cast times and lack of synergy with his minigun trait and current design. Also the other team usually/should disengage or kite your abilities, making resistance useless, or it was a panic Odin in which case you're likely dead anyway.
Not knowing his DPS numbers off the top off my head, I think it'll largely come down to the map/objective. Single target DPS = Drakken drill and AOE damage/zoning = Odin.
Li Li's buff to shake it off seems OP and makes her an even better dive/engage comp counter and bully. I'm looking forward to trying it out.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
They reduced chromies range by 4% at lvl 12.
Lilis passive was buffed as a lvl 16 talent if I read the patch notes correctly.
Lilis passive was buffed as a lvl 16 talent if I read the patch notes correctly.
Odin buffs are pretty good, but all of the things proto listed are still there so either he's unkillable and it's a good pick or it's not a good pick. Odin doesnt really get hit a lot either if used correctly.
I think odin does a lot more deeps though, but laser fits him really well (and you gotta add tychus dmg to it + the bodyblocking is so good)
I think odin does a lot more deeps though, but laser fits him really well (and you gotta add tychus dmg to it + the bodyblocking is so good)
Bodied. Feels bad man. She's so fun though
I'm playing her anyway. Bring on the buffs bb.also that valla buff lol
chen gonna need nerf, malf maybe need a nerf (his healing is prob harder for the majority to use now though)
range and health is probably the safest thing to change on chromie
havent tried naz
havent tried etc. but I got beat up in a 1v1 against one that took all the dmg talents as tracer so there's that
don't really know much about shake it off, but the numbers on it are really good tho it seems like kind of a booty talent w/ the way it procs
also holy shit alarak got buffed a bunch, havent played him but was scared of him when he was on ptr, and apparently he's dece enough to use in competitive so the buffs will be interesting. unstoppable on his r is huge
mac's impressions:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dHrNgcsNqg3Doe0ZciPvCY4SnWdboC-QXrpgxS7gFMs/edit?pli=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI4s36aO0IM
srey:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UHCxA5ITmhhufV41O1QsFvFDm61abFqsa1TfR5SePNM/edit
love living in a hots world where tychus is great feelz like 2014 again
so does living in a hots world where valla inadvertently gets a buff to her w build in an attempt to buff other builds...like seriously what is this valla change lol
chen gonna need nerf, malf maybe need a nerf (his healing is prob harder for the majority to use now though)
range and health is probably the safest thing to change on chromie
havent tried naz
havent tried etc. but I got beat up in a 1v1 against one that took all the dmg talents as tracer so there's that
don't really know much about shake it off, but the numbers on it are really good tho it seems like kind of a booty talent w/ the way it procs
also holy shit alarak got buffed a bunch, havent played him but was scared of him when he was on ptr, and apparently he's dece enough to use in competitive so the buffs will be interesting. unstoppable on his r is huge
mac's impressions:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1dHrNgcsNqg3Doe0ZciPvCY4SnWdboC-QXrpgxS7gFMs/edit?pli=1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WI4s36aO0IM
srey:
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1UHCxA5ITmhhufV41O1QsFvFDm61abFqsa1TfR5SePNM/edit
love living in a hots world where tychus is great feelz like 2014 again
so does living in a hots world where valla inadvertently gets a buff to her w build in an attempt to buff other builds...like seriously what is this valla change lol
I still have no masters. #WillNeverBeMaster
scoobs
Member
Played 1 game each of toad and spider builds on Zeebro. Immediate reaction is toads is significantly better, but we'll see. Need to play way more. Spiders do a lot of damage on the stat sheet, but I don't feel super effective in fights
Chromie and Hammer are going to rule this patch and its going to kill me inside.
Chromie and Hammer are going to rule this patch and its going to kill me inside.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Holy shit Zarya's grenades have such a huge range. Her denial is huge I think she might actually end up seeing competitive play on some maps because of it. You can just not channel with her in the vicinity, imagine every time you'd want to pick chromie but can't. Take away the damage and add a bit of tass to it, would you pick her?
I already love Zarya and will love her all the more once she receives some buffs.
I already love Zarya and will love her all the more once she receives some buffs.
When you say Toad build, what build are you going? There's only 3 Toad talents (1/7/13) and it seems to me, with reading them + a little playtime, that the 7 and 13 ones are pretty good in those tiers regardless of what you want to do (though 13 is def a flexible tier when necessary). The level 1 Toad talent seems pretty crap compared to the Spider one from my usage on PTR and live. The Spider one is way easier to stack from all I've seen. I think the Spider talent at 4 is similarly crap compared to Blood Ritual, as is the Spider talent at 7. That 7 Spider talent is ridiculous, honestly. Talk about unrealistic to get consistent repetition on. I am curious about how much use you could get out of Soul Harvest. 15 seconds is a long time in a team fight. How "nearby" do the enemies have to be?
My initial impression for an all-around build would be Spider talents at 1 and 16 (that 16 one is insanely useful from what I've seen), and Toads at 7 and 13. If you can land walls reliably, Dead Rush and the new 16 talent are pretty nice, but I feel like they are a bit of a trap myself.
All in all my impression is they wanted us to use a little of everything instead of going all in on one skill and it (hopefully) makes him a bit more useful all around.
Same, feel like her utility is awesome. The inevitable damage buffs are gonna be sweet.
jaundicejuice
Member
Both of these new Starcraft maps are designed around things--split holding/taking multiple objectives simultaneously--the vast majority of the HotS player base is fucking awful at.
Some matches it's like herding cats with a single objective.
Some matches it's like herding cats with a single objective.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Hammer can be tough to deal with but chromie is just, Tyrael, judgement, equals much fun being had.
no cleanse or crystal aegis
scoobs
Member
The level 1 talent is insane. You can throw out 10 toads of hugeness in a span of like 3 seconds at level 7. This is the build I went, granted it was the only time I got to test it since I had to go to work, but holy shit did I mess people up.
The new talent at 16, Ring of Poison, is all kinds of messed up. You trap someone in there and hit them with the gargantuan > toad > toad combo and they are dead two times over.
My experience with Toads since forever is that unless you are point blanking, they either walk around them or just clip 1 or 2. That means it's a harder stack job than the Spider talent. That's the biggest reason Spiders always reigned supreme, even after nerfs to them and buffs to Toads. The only exception was Toads of Hugeness for obvious reasons (RIP Toads bug). Maybe I just need to give it a few more goes, but it didn't seem like a quick stack to get the reward at all.
Same thing for walls. If you hit a wall, that shit is amazing, but the amount you miss makes it a talent you're gambling on other's stupidity as much as your own skill versus something like Spider Colony which makes Spiders just as infinitely spammable as the new Toads once you get that talent.
EDIT: Looking at early returns on hotdoggies, Widowmakers has been taken quite a bit more than the other talents but Thing of the Deep has the highest winrate by far. Dead Rush at 7 is pooping all over the other choices in winrate and pick rate. Guardian Toads at 13 has a positive winrate and significantly higher pickrate but Superstition has the highest winrate on that tier. The new 16 Zombie Wall talent has a great winrate and slightly higher pickrate than Spider Colony (3% better winrate with 230 more picks). Looks like a lot of folks taking the new 20 talent too.
Same thing for walls. If you hit a wall, that shit is amazing, but the amount you miss makes it a talent you're gambling on other's stupidity as much as your own skill versus something like Spider Colony which makes Spiders just as infinitely spammable as the new Toads once you get that talent.
EDIT: Looking at early returns on hotdoggies, Widowmakers has been taken quite a bit more than the other talents but Thing of the Deep has the highest winrate by far. Dead Rush at 7 is pooping all over the other choices in winrate and pick rate. Guardian Toads at 13 has a positive winrate and significantly higher pickrate but Superstition has the highest winrate on that tier. The new 16 Zombie Wall talent has a great winrate and slightly higher pickrate than Spider Colony (3% better winrate with 230 more picks). Looks like a lot of folks taking the new 20 talent too.
scoobs
Member
I'm just so excited to have real choices on Nazeebo. He's one of my all-time favorite heroes and always a joy to play for me. Love the last hitting mechanic, love the flavor of all his abilities. It will be really fun to re-learn him in a way with these new talents. I think Superstition is going to be crazy crazy powerful.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Hm.
Corpse Spiders only spawn when they hit an enemy.
Hm.
Removed alot of his talents.
Him. Nerf Toads. Nerf Gargantuan.
Yeah they ruined Nazeebo. Made him worse than before. Spiders only spawn if they hit an enemy? Like literally what?
Nah man. Nah. Gargantuan doesn't even move!? I don't like that skill, but they butchered it. Horrible.
Corpse Spiders only spawn when they hit an enemy.
Hm.
Removed alot of his talents.
Him. Nerf Toads. Nerf Gargantuan.
Yeah they ruined Nazeebo. Made him worse than before. Spiders only spawn if they hit an enemy? Like literally what?
Nah man. Nah. Gargantuan doesn't even move!? I don't like that skill, but they butchered it. Horrible.
The reason spiders were changed was because they were far, far too simple an ability. They were literally fire and forget - didn't matter where you flung them, or if they hit anyone. Skills should take more to use than just 'click anywhere, you win!'. Because they were so easy, they also held his power level back - you can't have a hero be that strong when a cat could play the character just as well.
And I feel the Garg is a huge beneficial change. They never fixed the AI issues with the old garg - for every fight he would go into the neckline and terrorise peoplenypud also have the fight where he went off to lane or just stood next to you singing. The change makes him far more useful I find.
And I feel the Garg is a huge beneficial change. They never fixed the AI issues with the old garg - for every fight he would go into the neckline and terrorise peoplenypud also have the fight where he went off to lane or just stood next to you singing. The change makes him far more useful I find.
scoobs
Member
Corpse spiders can spawn when they hit minions too, they will prefer heroes as well so its not all bad but definitely more of a skill shot.
Gargantuan now will attack anyone inside of his big circle, he moves around in the radius but doesn't leave the area. No longer will he wander off on his own and not attack anyone, he is always attacking something now. Its actually really powerful, use it like Kael'Thas uses his Phoenix basically, only it hits way harder.
They removed all of his shitty generic talents and added a ton of new unique ones in their place, nothing to complain about there.
Give it some more tries, he's quite powerful now, not ruined at all. I might even say he's really good now. Absurd damage numbers
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