Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
these types of characters have the tendency to always be at least good.
They nerfed and reworked Zera half a dozen times and he was played more or less regularly throughout.
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Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
these types of characters have the tendency to always be at least good.
They nerfed and reworked Zera half a dozen times and he was played more or less regularly throughout.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Genji's toolkit is just running into the same issues it ran into in OW, tons of mobility with the ability to end the team. They nerfed his mobility and dragonblade in OW, but he's still a monster in the hands of someone who is good. It's pretty impossible to make him trash tier unless they absolutely gut him, it'll just require more skill to do so.
My take is basically
His main issue is that he's first pickable, meaning ppl are fine in this meta letting ppl try to counterpick him. In the end he's a better malthael to me, a hero who ppl refuse to play properly against. Both of these heroes often get away with murder, and while they have tools to help them along with this id usually blame the opponents for their godawful play than genji/malth kits. Plus both are really able to take advantage of poor drafts and decision making. I think for genji some slight nerfs are in order for sure but imo, like malthael, he's a hero very easy to over nerf. The sensible thing to do is introduce slight nerfs and to cull more bs aspects of his kit (e range, dodge stacks) and see how stukov does against him (he's another hard counter).
Tldr his state imo has more to do w/ the meta and ppl playing dumb, he's overttuned but can easily be undertuned + he can healthily be displaced from the top w/o being culled if certain things get buffed more (bw, valeera, etc, and so on)
His main issue is that he's first pickable, meaning ppl are fine in this meta letting ppl try to counterpick him. In the end he's a better malthael to me, a hero who ppl refuse to play properly against. Both of these heroes often get away with murder, and while they have tools to help them along with this id usually blame the opponents for their godawful play than genji/malth kits. Plus both are really able to take advantage of poor drafts and decision making. I think for genji some slight nerfs are in order for sure but imo, like malthael, he's a hero very easy to over nerf. The sensible thing to do is introduce slight nerfs and to cull more bs aspects of his kit (e range, dodge stacks) and see how stukov does against him (he's another hard counter).
Tldr his state imo has more to do w/ the meta and ppl playing dumb, he's overttuned but can easily be undertuned + he can healthily be displaced from the top w/o being culled if certain things get buffed more (bw, valeera, etc, and so on)
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
I'm just pointing out that people playing smart makes it even worse.
Genji deserves to be overnerfed and broguth back up. Basically the KT treatment or Zera whatever you prefer.
Genji deserves to be overnerfed and broguth back up. Basically the KT treatment or Zera whatever you prefer.
Eh i pretty much expect him to be overnerfed if stukov + the next set of nerfs doesnt do it. Anecdotally i see genji in pro games w/ all the things i listed: poor draft, poor management of cds, poor genji play, but i guess in the end balance is never really about the character itself but how the players are carrying themselves. So like to that end it wouldnt surprise me to see blizz go for something a bit subtle considering his wr is poor in everything besides competitive (even tho they should balance for competitive imo)
I see so many goddamn anubs cocoon the healer instead of genji with dblade on lol
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Saw a good suggestion for making his w dmg aimable (like gall ult i guess), itd fuk with his lvl 20 tho. The change would make it harder to kill ppl under their keep (tho id rather ppl just learn not to sit behind their gate w/ low health against stuff like genji, medivh, and illi)
I see so many goddamn anubs cocoon the healer instead of genji with dblade on lol
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Saw a good suggestion for making his w dmg aimable (like gall ult i guess), itd fuk with his lvl 20 tho. The change would make it harder to kill ppl under their keep (tho id rather ppl just learn not to sit behind their gate w/ low health against stuff like genji, medivh, and illi)
Karsticles
Member
It's because his real value is in his trait. Imagine if Abathur was that powerful...ever.
I guess I just don't see how you can properly play against genji.... point and click disables, draft all high hp, don't get isolated... it sounds a lot like how people used to counter li Ming. i don't think it's a fair answer now either.
I don't think you can compare him to malthiel at all, it's so much easier to understand and avoid, and mathiel has to be successful to be effective. He's got to worry about timings, and his own cooldowns, like he has a very small window to get it right or be useless. But genji is free to play poorly and still be effective.
I don't think you can compare him to malthiel at all, it's so much easier to understand and avoid, and mathiel has to be successful to be effective. He's got to worry about timings, and his own cooldowns, like he has a very small window to get it right or be useless. But genji is free to play poorly and still be effective.
To me it's the other way around, ive def seen more genji's fucking themselves over and feel like he's much harder to play than malth who only has w to outplay with and basically only has to think "do i win if i go in or do i die".
There was a period of time where li ming was overpowered (w sucked u in, spells did full dmg to buildings) but even after the main things got addressed ppl still complained about stuff like the fact that she gets resets off a kill or that she was long-ranged; it took like a year for ppl to realize that they were just playing like shit and that you could just dodge her shit if you werent cc'd or that if you stand close to her she can e you or that you shouldnt bum around her on low health.
Also to me the cc thing is totally valid, dude has to go in to get value and dies to one cc chain, id pick cc against illidan too even tho stuns dont stop his evade. Both illidan and genji have been getting fucked up by dehaka in the hgc games ive caught. None of this is to say that genji doesnt need a nerf, i just get werked up when ppl go after the character.
There was a period of time where li ming was overpowered (w sucked u in, spells did full dmg to buildings) but even after the main things got addressed ppl still complained about stuff like the fact that she gets resets off a kill or that she was long-ranged; it took like a year for ppl to realize that they were just playing like shit and that you could just dodge her shit if you werent cc'd or that if you stand close to her she can e you or that you shouldnt bum around her on low health.
Also to me the cc thing is totally valid, dude has to go in to get value and dies to one cc chain, id pick cc against illidan too even tho stuns dont stop his evade. Both illidan and genji have been getting fucked up by dehaka in the hgc games ive caught. None of this is to say that genji doesnt need a nerf, i just get werked up when ppl go after the character.
Karsticles
Member
Genji isn't super easy to play, but he is also too good. My first time playing him I had 0 deaths and second highest damage. I'm terrible at his character archetype, too. It's just too hard for him to die.
Wish other teams would do that but this is pretty neat. Roll20 made a highlight video for their matches in MSB.
QM is in such a sad state at the moment, it's almost impossible to win a match. There's always someone that's either throwing or just lacks the basic understanding of the game.
We just had a BoE game with a Probius that literally did PvE the whole game. Even though we couldn't possibly with the race since we had 4 tanks on our team, he didn't help even once in a fight and just kept attacking the immortal on his own.
We just had a BoE game with a Probius that literally did PvE the whole game. Even though we couldn't possibly with the race since we had 4 tanks on our team, he didn't help even once in a fight and just kept attacking the immortal on his own.
You say that you agree he needs nerfs, and then compare him to heroes who have also been nerfed multiple times. The list of illidan counters is long and li ming is a shadow of her former self. I don't understand what there is to be worked up about. He clearly needs to be nerfed.
All I'm saying is that genji is better then every example hero given so far. People don't just need time to figure him out. The more time people have to play with him the better he gets. And that the idea of hard cc being a counter to a hero doesn't count because it's universal. It applies to sgt hammer as much as it does to genji.
Not picking hard cc versus mobile heroes is a huge misplay but "just stun him" is the classic bad example for how to counter play something. Might as well say "just remove him from the game" as a way to balance a hero.
Meteor Strike is literally Johanna's Falling Sword lol
To reiterate i think he needs slight survivability nerfs and an e range nerf. I think hed be weak as hell with no shuri dmg (dmg when harassing with e and qing feels rlly imperative to his playstyle) and completely unfun playing li ming style. The most going ham nerf id see as reasonable is a nerf to his pve (shingan only works on heroes, e reduced dmg to non heroes, etc.)
I get where u are coming from with the dissatisfaction of cc as an answer (one of many answers tho) but it is a legit correct thing to do against this character that ppl dont take advantage of. If you stand next to your uther he dies. If you black arrow him he dies. You can ofc say it works on anyone but ppl just, u kno, havent come around to putting it into practice, it's relatively rare to see ppl treat a genji team fight differently than the usual smash the two action figures together style fight. But this is an agree to disagree thing, i dont think it's wrong to be dissatisfied with that option.
Something id compare it to are split push top laners in league. Ppl were immensely dissatisfied with the idea that you need to put attention to the lane, that you need to make an effort to prevent farm, that you need to speed up the game so it doesnt reach late game, etc., like 4 years ago it was basically a non-answer for a lot of ppl. But i mean that's the game and ppl eventually got over it and started playing better. Im not saying the answer to genji is to git gud, he's clearly over the top atm, but the idea that he is fundamentally broken or needs a rework i dont agree with at all; he just needs tweaks. And anecdotally, in my games at least, ppl have wisened up playing against him in the month he's been out.
Gettin worked up is hyperbole, but i just see so many balance discussions revolve around how hard a hero is shitting on them (or how hard they are shitting on them) instead of what the hero can actually do. I dunno if focusing on the latter is proper for balancing, but it def reeks of character blaming. But im of the school that if u didnt play the situation correct it's on you, which again might not be relevant to balancing concerns. This is why i compare it to malthael, someone who has a ludicrously undeserved winrate due to poor play.
I dont agree with the idea that illidan and li ming suddenly became manageable after nerfs, illidan just went under the radar (he's still top tier) and li ming was complained about waaay longer than what was reasonable with many ppl blaming her base design (legit ppl getting hit with the orb and getting salty) for their woes.
I get where u are coming from with the dissatisfaction of cc as an answer (one of many answers tho) but it is a legit correct thing to do against this character that ppl dont take advantage of. If you stand next to your uther he dies. If you black arrow him he dies. You can ofc say it works on anyone but ppl just, u kno, havent come around to putting it into practice, it's relatively rare to see ppl treat a genji team fight differently than the usual smash the two action figures together style fight. But this is an agree to disagree thing, i dont think it's wrong to be dissatisfied with that option.
Something id compare it to are split push top laners in league. Ppl were immensely dissatisfied with the idea that you need to put attention to the lane, that you need to make an effort to prevent farm, that you need to speed up the game so it doesnt reach late game, etc., like 4 years ago it was basically a non-answer for a lot of ppl. But i mean that's the game and ppl eventually got over it and started playing better. Im not saying the answer to genji is to git gud, he's clearly over the top atm, but the idea that he is fundamentally broken or needs a rework i dont agree with at all; he just needs tweaks. And anecdotally, in my games at least, ppl have wisened up playing against him in the month he's been out.
Gettin worked up is hyperbole, but i just see so many balance discussions revolve around how hard a hero is shitting on them (or how hard they are shitting on them) instead of what the hero can actually do. I dunno if focusing on the latter is proper for balancing, but it def reeks of character blaming. But im of the school that if u didnt play the situation correct it's on you, which again might not be relevant to balancing concerns. This is why i compare it to malthael, someone who has a ludicrously undeserved winrate due to poor play.
I dont agree with the idea that illidan and li ming suddenly became manageable after nerfs, illidan just went under the radar (he's still top tier) and li ming was complained about waaay longer than what was reasonable with many ppl blaming her base design (legit ppl getting hit with the orb and getting salty) for their woes.
No Terry Crews? feels bad man. Either way, am curious to see which OW hero is next and how far into the future they wait before dropping another. There's pretty good arguments for why we wouldn't see another for months, and of course the success of OW is argument enough for why we saw so many in a short time frame.
OW appears to be aiming for 3 releases a year. Which is a good rate for that style of game.
WonderRade
Member
doomfist sounds like nazeebo
skibbidbop punch
skibbidbop punch
scoobs
Member
Agreed, wouldn't be surprised if it was the same voice actor
I don't think he needs to be reworked at all. Just really needs less leeway. Dodge talent, mobility CDs and range, also infinite d blade is way too easy.
Like the stun example, standing next uther, it doesn't work because even if he can't just kite the uther or kill the uther, and gets stunned. He still doesn't take auto attack damage while he's stunned then Ws then jumps away. It's like 5 seconds of safety and that's assuming he fucks up to begin with. They need the uther threat plus one or maybe two more hard disables. But it's silly to argue hypotheticals.
The point is it's unfairly disproportionately in genji's favor. Like li Ming used to be. Even if you caught her once, or even twice, you needed to catch her three times and if anyone on your team made a mistake during that she'd get multiple kills.
its not a matter of some strategy that people don't want to employ or some collective ignorance that enables genji. One entire team has to play very on point vs one hero who doesn't.
That's not saying game defining heroes shouldn't exist, but the level of execution needs to justify it. Heroes like Vikings, abathur, tracer, hell even illidan to an extent need a comp/strategy to work well AND they require a high lvl of experience on the hero. Right now, it's just too easy, if genji doesn't get the kill he just gets out and tries again in a little bit, or continues to hit R until someone dies and then gets out.
Oh yeah i didnt mean to put words in ur mouth, just saying that the situation with genji isnt so dire that something radical needs to happen. Also stun stops protect cold (silence too i believe). The example (ur right that hypotheticals arent really useful) w/ uther is to illustrate that ppl do not go out of their way to prevent genji success. If u stand next to uther you get stunned, dstorm, ded. Genji loses a target or trades his life for a kill.
I get what you're saying about genji being intrisically unfair due to burden of execution mainly being on the opposing team. I dunno if i agree completely but it's def a good point and prob the case with any mobile hero. But i believe prtty heavily that ppl refuse to play against him properly. Like i said before tho, ppl not playing against him right (or they are? Since his winrate low) might not be a concern when it comes to balancing; the nerfs to nova and valeera were unwarranted too but they had other things to worry about beyond where a hero stands in the game objectively.
Like i think essentially where we diverge here is i think genji play is pretty much at it's ceiling but ppl's ability to play against him is rising (slowly) and for the majority of the population might not ever be a consideration at all, whereas you believe that unless he is made more difficult to play he will consistently be an unappealing hero that puts the burden on the opposing team to play correct? I wouldnt be able to tell who is right from where im standing but i think both are valid theories.
Iunno if you played league much but there is this really mobile jungler called lee sin who got similar criticisms when he was first meta. He has a q that lets him home in on a target, a w that lets him dash and shield, an aoe slow, and haymaker. League is a diff beast because everyone has flash but i saw the same arc with him, where ppl steadily got better at playing against him, set ups and reactions just got better and better, no wasted cds when he'd prob get away anyway, positioning so his q followup was a bad idea, and so on. It's not a great comparison since league offers more options in general than heroes, but the takeaway is that there was organic adaptation. In general im pessimistic about the skill level of the hots community but in league high gold and up i wouldnt be surprised at all if ppl started to dodge genji e or kept track of his cds (see the e, see the d, is he still in range? He dead cuz we held onto our burst/cc. He's not? We got all our shit and he spent all his shit, time to go in). So id like to see something like that for heroes, but this is def the type of company to be more like "oh ppl having a hard time huh, better do something".
Def dont disagree that nerfs should revolve around making him easier to kill, but i think it should be subtle. Remove one charge of dodge and lower e range. If ppl still cant handle him start lowering his health a bit (i dont really see much genji surviving with a sliver of health scenarios tho). But i dont think he needs to sacrifice his current playstyle to be bumped from s tier
I get what you're saying about genji being intrisically unfair due to burden of execution mainly being on the opposing team. I dunno if i agree completely but it's def a good point and prob the case with any mobile hero. But i believe prtty heavily that ppl refuse to play against him properly. Like i said before tho, ppl not playing against him right (or they are? Since his winrate low) might not be a concern when it comes to balancing; the nerfs to nova and valeera were unwarranted too but they had other things to worry about beyond where a hero stands in the game objectively.
Like i think essentially where we diverge here is i think genji play is pretty much at it's ceiling but ppl's ability to play against him is rising (slowly) and for the majority of the population might not ever be a consideration at all, whereas you believe that unless he is made more difficult to play he will consistently be an unappealing hero that puts the burden on the opposing team to play correct? I wouldnt be able to tell who is right from where im standing but i think both are valid theories.
Iunno if you played league much but there is this really mobile jungler called lee sin who got similar criticisms when he was first meta. He has a q that lets him home in on a target, a w that lets him dash and shield, an aoe slow, and haymaker. League is a diff beast because everyone has flash but i saw the same arc with him, where ppl steadily got better at playing against him, set ups and reactions just got better and better, no wasted cds when he'd prob get away anyway, positioning so his q followup was a bad idea, and so on. It's not a great comparison since league offers more options in general than heroes, but the takeaway is that there was organic adaptation. In general im pessimistic about the skill level of the hots community but in league high gold and up i wouldnt be surprised at all if ppl started to dodge genji e or kept track of his cds (see the e, see the d, is he still in range? He dead cuz we held onto our burst/cc. He's not? We got all our shit and he spent all his shit, time to go in). So id like to see something like that for heroes, but this is def the type of company to be more like "oh ppl having a hard time huh, better do something".
Def dont disagree that nerfs should revolve around making him easier to kill, but i think it should be subtle. Remove one charge of dodge and lower e range. If ppl still cant handle him start lowering his health a bit (i dont really see much genji surviving with a sliver of health scenarios tho). But i dont think he needs to sacrifice his current playstyle to be bumped from s tier
scoobs
Member
And fuck Chromie
TheSadRanger
Banned
Alpha Centauri
Member
That sucks, game is still worth going through. I didn't see what exactly was spoiled for you, but there isn't any one thing that could be said that would be earth-shattering. Pretty much every plot point has some type of twist involved so don't feel discouraged.
scoobs
Member
Oh quick match... The enemy team push to our core in the first 7 minutes, skip to 15 minutes later, and I single handedly take us to the brink of beating them as Malfurion of all heroes...we team wipe them, they have no keeps left. I make the call to core because we have cata's on it and their ENTIRE TEAM IS DEAD. My valla, Illidan, and rehgar decide to clear out the lanes instead. We lose. Valla says I'm an idiot for wanting to core there.
I hate my life.
I hate my life.
goldlion054
Member
If that isn't the most quick match story I've ever heard. Good golly
Just getting back into the game after I stopped playing around the Artanis release. And let me tell you, things have changed. Back in my day, you used to be able to Kerrigan stalk all over the map without fear because you were the queen of burst. Now you're middle of the road and praying you hit a combo
scoobs
Member
Wow that's a long break, welcome back. They added a ton of great heroes since Artanis and reworked him, he's so much better. You can phase prism while dashing now, and it's amazing.
Wooooh boy Meteor/Lava Wave Ragnaros is nasty, holy shit so much fun! Insane damage/xp/siege. Granted, I was playing against some less than great players but still... fun!
goldlion054
Member
Some of the new heroes seem great. D.Va is a blast. Genji, though? Oh boy. I thought I could solo anybody after level 10 with Illidan. I was wrong. Oh man is Genji just a monster.
That's some serious Rag action. Guess I'll have to snap him up
Orochinagis
Member
Sondius needs some buffs on its photon cannon, being too dependant on its W is not fun