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Heroes of the Storm |OT3| Chromiehounds
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
There are always arguments in these types of games on how to classify characters. I frankly don't think it's worth worrying about these edge characters that can maaaybe fit in another category.
The problem right now is that the edge characters are regularly picked as solo healers because, to use a Dreadnaught term, a lot of people are dinguses and will always be dinguses.
it's a matchmaking issue too, the idea that tass and tyrande are supposed to be in the same slot or that abathur and medivh are supposed to be in the same slot, or that sonya/artanis are in the same spot, the whole thing is stupid
give ppl the chance for fast matches where they can pick out really awful and unsynergistic hero choices
give ppl the chance for fast matches where they can pick out really awful and unsynergistic hero choices
Sonya/Artanis are both bruisers competing for a frontliner spot and Medivh/Abathur/Tass/Ty all compete for the same 1/2-support spot tho?
DOTA 2 doesn't have hard classifications for roles, they just list the stuff a character is good at. Like if it's someone like Axe, it will say "Initiator/Durable/Disabler/Jungler" so you know what he can do on a more specific level rather than being labeled a "Warrior" and you don't know how he is different from another "Warrior" like Underlord who is more of a nuker with escape utility.
Their only hard classification is Strength/Agility/Intelligence which just tells you how they level up, doesn't actually tell you anything about playstyle especially these days when every one of the 3 divisions have vast differences within each of them.
Their only hard classification is Strength/Agility/Intelligence which just tells you how they level up, doesn't actually tell you anything about playstyle especially these days when every one of the 3 divisions have vast differences within each of them.
all those heroes do completely different things and have superficial similarities
if you're building a pick comp w/ artanis you can't replace him with sonya and if you are building a protect melee comp well gl having artanis instead of sonya. qm just thrusts really ill-fitting frankenstein comps together nonstop. it's fine to have it that way but if blizz still wants to do stuff with "roles" and not realize qm will forever be a scattered nonsensical thing they can literally fix it by making the casual mode have like even a little player agency before the game starts
dota 2 is the correct way to classify heroes
and league is correct for what it has, even though it will always field a "top 5 of role" style draft
you dont need to call these heroes supports for everyone to field a healer, they just will because it's meta
if you're building a pick comp w/ artanis you can't replace him with sonya and if you are building a protect melee comp well gl having artanis instead of sonya. qm just thrusts really ill-fitting frankenstein comps together nonstop. it's fine to have it that way but if blizz still wants to do stuff with "roles" and not realize qm will forever be a scattered nonsensical thing they can literally fix it by making the casual mode have like even a little player agency before the game starts
dota 2 is the correct way to classify heroes
and league is correct for what it has, even though it will always field a "top 5 of role" style draft
you dont need to call these heroes supports for everyone to field a healer, they just will because it's meta
Orochinagis
Member
Stukov is like a Multiclass in disguise, Q is pretty zzzzz like lucio, W is wierd you can spread like his Q and his E is really fun to harass casting enemies.
His healing need a little , just a little buff
His healing need a little , just a little buff
You vastly underestimate just how many people are really dumb. So has Blizzard for a long time. You have to be blatant because the people who don't need the role classifications aren't the reason they're there.
i dunno if they ever fixed his healing while it was on ptr but i feel like he'd work well with another healer
on ptr his healing was so strong that imo his most optimal build just went mainly into e
if his healing aint great after the bugfix he has a lot of routes that can make it really good, id be surprised if he cant solo heal even w/o cleanse
im legit just basing it off of other mobas, tho i do feel like there is something in the water when it comes to this game lol
on ptr his healing was so strong that imo his most optimal build just went mainly into e
if his healing aint great after the bugfix he has a lot of routes that can make it really good, id be surprised if he cant solo heal even w/o cleanse
im legit just basing it off of other mobas, tho i do feel like there is something in the water when it comes to this game lol
Tyrande on first glance definitely looks like a support hero.
Has a single target heal, spammable. Similar to Malfurion
Has a long ranged AOE stun. Similar to Malfurion.
Has a long ranged poke, can scout. Similar to Malfurion but not an AOE and more utility for vision.
Has a trait that reveals enemies and makes them take more damage. Great for a support character to have.
At this point any sane person thinks that Tyrande is a main support, all of her basic kit is designed for support. It's not until you get into her talents and realize that she has way more damage utility than most supports but she has less support utility (like no cleanse).
And individually her basic kit isn't as strong for support when you actually put it into practical application. The heal is low, the stun is very small AOE and her ultimates are more offensive/zoning than supportive.
You can't blame the playerbase for thinking Tyrande is supposed to be played as a main support.
Has a single target heal, spammable. Similar to Malfurion
Has a long ranged AOE stun. Similar to Malfurion.
Has a long ranged poke, can scout. Similar to Malfurion but not an AOE and more utility for vision.
Has a trait that reveals enemies and makes them take more damage. Great for a support character to have.
At this point any sane person thinks that Tyrande is a main support, all of her basic kit is designed for support. It's not until you get into her talents and realize that she has way more damage utility than most supports but she has less support utility (like no cleanse).
And individually her basic kit isn't as strong for support when you actually put it into practical application. The heal is low, the stun is very small AOE and her ultimates are more offensive/zoning than supportive.
You can't blame the playerbase for thinking Tyrande is supposed to be played as a main support.
Orochinagis
Member
His Healing is bad on TFs if you wasted his D before, Stukov plays like Lucio passive healing but limited
WonderRade
Member
I get off work at 6:30pst which is 9:30 your time. I'll try and get on tonight if I can make it in time. if one of you folks want to add me I'm Rade#1778
Pretty one sided games with Gul'dan so far, but I dropped below 1900 after a billion losses so, yeah, not very indicative, they seemed to run into my spells a lot. I went E build for both because I wanted the extra damage to delete Nova and Valeera from a distance, but I think E at lv1 and then Q build is what I would have used otherwise. The Q quest doesn't seem particularly good.
I might buy him, his damage is pretty good.
I might buy him, his damage is pretty good.
I think people pick tyrande in QM to take advantage of her category as not a healer, and in draft modes she gets stuck as solo healer in lower Elo because people use it as an excuse to not have to play support: I don't need to play support we have tyrande RIP
Also, I think that the more popular the game gets and the more well known the competitive scene gets, the worse QM gets. Back in the early days QM shit comps were not nearly as bad.... maybe that's becaus ethereal sless heroes, but also I think the mentality of the player base has changed since HL, unranked, and HGC have become a thing.
Like QM shit comp meta needs to be played completely different then standard meta.
I'd pick Tassadar in HL and the last picks wouldn't grab a healer because "we had a support." Shits been a problem for the game's entire existence.
Same thing happens to Tass a lot too. It's not because people don't know it's bad, it's because they don't want to play support.
scoobs
Member
it increases Q range, which is huge for poking w/ him. I prefer E build cuz its way more fun but they're both really strong.
Q build Xul is super duper strong, do NOT go skeleton build
No, it's because they're bad. They don't understand the distinction, they'll be hovering a healer and move off it once Ty/Tass are grabbed because they don't understand that Tass/Ty are secondary supports because to them "Support" = "Healer" despite it not being true since D1 of the game's Alpha launch.
The solution is to just give in and stop fighting the stupid people by making a full-healer category that excludes Tass/Ty/Medivh/Aba/Zarya. Not to try and fix the baddies, because they are incapable of being fixed.
They are bad, and you're right about a QM solution. But anybody playing HL or even unranked these days knows better, or learns after the first time they see it, that Tass/tyrande are not solo supports. They just don't want to play support. There's people who don't pick support when there's literally no supports on your team, its the same attitude.
Pretty disappointing they didn't pick the same menu music they used when they added Stukov as a commander in SC2.
I don't know about "huge", it's just 10%.
They don't. That's the issue. I haven't played HL in ages, but like a year apart I was seeing the BS when I tried to play Tassadar.
It's the "hover support, shift off" thing. Not just a "won't play support" thing.
scoobs
Member
10% range is a lot on a spamable ability so core to his kit
Guldan's talent tree links lvl 1 and 16 too hard. Like if you take E/Q quest you really probably should take the corresponding E/Q talent at 16, otherwise wtf are you doing?
I've always read this as "thank god now I don't have to play support".
I've also seen people switch off the hero they're hovering to royally screw there team regardless... solo tank, solo healer, yolo nova or murky, people don't give a shit about other people.
I've always read this as "thank god now I don't have to play support".
I've also seen people switch off the hero they're hovering to royally screw there team regardless... solo tank, solo healer, yolo nova or murky, people don't give a shit about other people.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Just won a 4 specialists, 1 support game on cursed hollow. The other team actually never got a 3rd objective and we got like 4-5 in a row and they lost by then. As zagara I was 1v1ing azmo and chromie with that basic damage talent on lvl 2. Zagara is a lot of fun.
Karsticles
Member
When you want or don't want a specialist is still confusing to me.
Specialist now just means "complicated"/"niche" instead of "Siege". Which is fine.
Karsticles
Member
<3 Stukov.
After buying Cho'gall today I now have all of the Warriors. =D
I know what they are. That isn't the issue I brought up.
After buying Cho'gall today I now have all of the Warriors. =D
I know what they are. That isn't the issue I brought up.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
you don't want specialists you sometimes want heroes that coincidentally are classified as such.
Yah this is my thing but except with every role
This is a prime example of why the classification system sucks.
You don't want a specialist, or a warrior, or an assassin. You want damage, or crowd control, dive, wave clear, healing, vision, or whatever.
The classification of specialist (or warrior, or assassin) just hides the shit you really need to know behind a term that doesn't actually mean anything when it comes to playing the game.
Then to make it worse, blizzard tries to balance the game around the classifications. Easily seen in the support fiasco we've been talking about but also visible in Mellee damage dealers.
It's like blizzard doesn't understand there own game or are purposefully obscuring it for newer players for like marketing reasons or something.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
Classifications helped me a lot as a new player. But you eventually learn each character's individual strengths and weaknesses so the classifications become less important over time as a newbie (as I was - really only started playing at 2.0 launch) learns the game.
OP needs nerfs!
Think ill wait for 10k, I've fallen into a WoW hole (of all things) and I might aswell use up the sub
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
well generally we want 1 warrior assassin and support is acceptable. People do get the nuance of main and off tank and solo healer or not.
Oh you know why
I only take specialists when they are very good on a map. Like Azmodan/Zagara/Sylvanas. Abathur I would take in place of a support usually or in a particular combo/strat (like Zeratul/Anubarak, then put hat on Zeratul).
Nazeebo I don't even consider a specialist, he's essentially an assassin Mage. Other specialists I don't even consider to pick/draft like TLV because I know neither I nor the other person can be trusted to play it well enough.
You found my alt
Karsticles
Member
Why the fuck is my queue time with 4 or 5 people more than 10 minutes? This is bullshit. How can Blizzard be this incompetent?
Karsticles
Member
Does Stukov's healing seem absurd to anyone else?
Ya I was really digging the E build. But I was typically taking the range at 7 and the one that leaves it behind at 13. I did dabble with the CDR at 7 and it seemed more worthwhile. Guess it just depends on what you're playing.
Can't stand the W. Slowish projectile and it has to be the most narrow skillshot in the game.