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[Petrarca]

I can't claim to be 100% format neutral, but I root for the demise of HD-DVD: not because I have anything against it, but because I know the only way to really go forward right now is having only one format, and I think that format will end up being Blu-ray. If the places were switched, I'd be rooting for Blu-ray to go away.

Either way, one has to die, and that's that, so far as I'm concerned.

Exactly, true movie fans will want ONE format only. Format war is the reason we're not seeing caliber titles like Star-Wars, LOTR, Spierlberg movies, etc.

Currently the only ones holding up are the pro-Toshiba/Microsoft, noone else. If HD-DVD was winning then these people could make their claims, but the fact is that HD-DVD is limping and dragging the HD penetration. So it might as well just die.

No true movie fans in their right mind would want to prolong this war

 

[captive]

Wow.

Hey its a nice mall, i may have to go check it out when they come in.

 

[bishoptl]

Format Neutral= No format preference

shidoshi=wants blu ray to win and hd dvd to die

shidoshi IS NOT format neutral

I understand your reasons, but the minute you took a side, you are no longer format neutral.

Dude, learn to comprehend what you're reading.

If somebody's format-neutral, it doesn't matter who wins in their books, as long as a winner is declared, and soon.

The writing is on the wall for HD-DVD - and has been for some time now - so the sooner it goes away, the sooner hi-definition media can start gaining real traction with the mainstream.

If the situation was reversed, with HD-DVD whupping Blu-Ray and shidoshi clamoring for Blu-Ray to roll over, would you be posting such nonsense? Of course not.

This thread is the definition of good times.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

There's no use talking to you, is there?

Van likes making a big deal out of the smallest things.

 

[VanMardigan]

I'd argue with bishop, but he bans folks for disagreeing, so I'll just state that:

If I don't care who wins, I'm format neutral. If I prefer for Blu Ray to win (for WHATEVER reason, including because they're leading and I want a one-format future) I can no longer be considered format neutral. I am now pro-Blu Ray.

I understand WHY you'd take that position, but the minute you do, how the heck are you neutral?

edit:

At most, you could state: I was format neutral because I didn't care who won, but I want a one format future, and since Blu Ray is winning, I will back that format. So this is what I think shidoshi is saying, but that is NOT neutrality. It WAS neutrality at first, but the circumstances changed that. Perfectly understandable, but you can't just change a definition to match your needs.

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

I'd argue with bishop, but he bans folks for disagreeing, so I'll just state that:

If I don't care who wins, I'm format neutral. If I prefer for Blu Ray to win (for WHATEVER reason, including because they're leading and I want a one-format future) I can no longer be considered format neutral. I am now pro-Blu Ray.

I understand WHY you'd take that position, but the minute you do, how the heck are you neutral?

edit:

At most, you could state: I was format neutral because I didn't care who won, but I want a one format future, and since Blu Ray is winning, I will back that format. So this is what I think shidoshi is saying, but that is NOT neutrality. It WAS neutrality at first, but the circumstances changed that. Perfectly understandable, but you can't just change a definition to match your needs.

Wouldn't call it format neutral, but it's definitely not unmerited bias.

 

[thaivo]

I'm not format neutral. I dislike BD with a passion.

 

[Suikoguy]

I'm not format neutral. I dislike BD with a passion.

Why though, seriously?

 

[djkimothy]

It's probably cause it's Sony. What other reason is there to not like about the format?

 

[VanMardigan]

Wouldn't call it format neutral, but it's definitely not unmerited bias.

I can agree with this. And like I said, I understand that many here started out truly format neutral.

 

[thaivo]

Some points from the AVS forum that I agree with

---
Because the HD DVD group has put out quality discs from the beginning, no Fifth Element crap there.

Because HD DVD's promised features all work right now and will work on every HDDVD player (except the bastardized LG combo) ever made. BD's features are still MIA and definitely won't work ever on all existing players except possibly the PS3. First adopters are used to getting screwed in price...not capability...blu-ray STILL not finalised, and older machines not likely to be able to play all functions

Because BD group's tactics in this war have rivalled Nixon for dirty tricks. Announcing tons of releases at major shows to hype their "superior exclusive studio support" only to have all but a tiny handful end up cancelled or "postponed" with no explanation or new release date announcements.

The plain fact is that HD DVD can and does deliver what they promise while the BD group engages in outright false release announcements and with an apparently clear conscience sells overpriced obsolete players.

Region coding perpetuated by BD - a huge step backwards for those of us who have been region free for years. The flip side of that are some of the excellent imports becoming available to HD DVD.

 

[thaivo]

Why though, seriously?

That and I really don't like Sony and their pushing of proprietary media.

 

[thaivo]

That and I really don't like Sony and their pushing of proprietary media.

More --

What Toshiba has done right
1. The software was ready out of the gate
2. Good discs seem to extract every last bit of performance for the storage limitation. Example:The Prestige looks as good on an HD30 as it does a BD50.
3. Making TrueHD mandatory in hardware
4. Very consistent in releasing new firmware, adressing both fixes and new features
5. The second gen hardware is solid
6. Lack of region coding
7. Spearheaded hardware sales by selling at a loss early to get players out there

What Sony has done wrong
1. Released a platform that just was not ready. Shame on you Sony! Unforgivable
2. The PS3 is tanking as a game machine. If they hadn't miscalculated how much people were willing to pay for a game console
3. Why waste disc space on PCM when you can use TrueHD? In the beginning you had BD25, mpeg2 and PCM. No thanks
4. Not gotten their top tier studios to release any movies

 

[rc213]

WOW! Someone is off their meds...

 

[Petrarca]

Some points from the AVS forum that I agree with

---
Because the HD DVD group has put out quality discs from the beginning, no Fifth Element crap there.

Because HD DVD's promised features all work right now and will work on every HDDVD player (except the bastardized LG combo) ever made. BD's features are still MIA and definitely won't work ever on all existing players except possibly the PS3. First adopters are used to getting screwed in price...not capability...blu-ray STILL not finalised, and older machines not likely to be able to play all functions

Because BD group's tactics in this war have rivalled Nixon for dirty tricks. Announcing tons of releases at major shows to hype their "superior exclusive studio support" only to have all but a tiny handful end up cancelled or "postponed" with no explanation or new release date announcements.

The plain fact is that HD DVD can and does deliver what they promise while the BD group engages in outright false release announcements and with an apparently clear conscience sells overpriced obsolete players.

Region coding perpetuated by BD - a huge step backwards for those of us who have been region free for years. The flip side of that are some of the excellent imports becoming available to HD DVD.

Did you just follow HD-DVD blindly? did you actually do some research or buy the products itself and try-out? because looks like you don't know what's going on. For the last 2 months Universal has been putting out the crappiest transfer quality in HD history. Their transfer quality is no better than upconversion.


See that's what happened when you just follow AVS forum blindly and not doing your own research.

 

[thaivo]

Did you just follow HD-DVD blindly? did you actually do some research or buy the products itself and try-out? because looks like you don't know what's going on. For the last 2 months Universal has been putting out the crappiest transfer quality in HD history. Their transfer quality is no better than upconversion.


See that's what happened when you just follow AVS forum blindly and not doing your own research.

I actually didn't read the AVS Forum until after the purchase of my HD-D2, but actually purchased the player based on my desire for HD, and the fact that the HD-D2 was $250 at Costco, and I had $200 worth of credit. I've been pretty happy with the purchase.

You can't say that Sony's stance at the beginning, that of sticking with MPEG2 was good for the consumer or their image quality... As for the crappy transfer, the general consensus has been that the reason some have viewed the transfers as bad was that the movies in question were much older films, which did not have impressive prints. Something that was not the case with the 5th Element.

 

[Petrarca]

I actually didn't read the AVS Forum until after the purchase of my HD-D2, but actually purchased the player based on my desire for HD, and the fact that the HD-D2 was $250 at Costco, and I had $200 worth of credit. I've been pretty happy with the purchase.

so what's your take on declining HD-DVD transfer quality for the last few months? did you buy any Universal HD-DVD movies lately? and compare the quality?

 

[Superman00]

More --

What Toshiba has done right
1. The software was ready out of the gate
2. Good discs seem to extract every last bit of performance for the storage limitation. Example:The Prestige looks as good on an HD30 as it does a BD50.
3. Making TrueHD mandatory in hardware
4. Very consistent in releasing new firmware, adressing both fixes and new features
5. The second gen hardware is solid
6. Lack of region coding
7. Spearheaded hardware sales by selling at a loss early to get players out there

What Sony has done wrong
1. Released a platform that just was not ready. Shame on you Sony! Unforgivable
2. The PS3 is tanking as a game machine. If they hadn't miscalculated how much people were willing to pay for a game console
3. Why waste disc space on PCM when you can use TrueHD? In the beginning you had BD25, mpeg2 and PCM. No thanks
4. Not gotten their top tier studios to release any movies

When keeping it real goes bad. :lol

 

[thaivo]

When keeping it real goes bad. :lol

Ah, but can you dispute any of the positive points?

 

[Days like these...]

Some points from the AVS forum that I agree with

---
Because the HD DVD group has put out quality discs from the beginning, no Fifth Element crap there.

Because HD DVD's promised features all work right now and will work on every HDDVD player (except the bastardized LG combo) ever made. BD's features are still MIA and definitely won't work ever on all existing players except possibly the PS3. First adopters are used to getting screwed in price...not capability...blu-ray STILL not finalised, and older machines not likely to be able to play all functions

Because BD group's tactics in this war have rivalled Nixon for dirty tricks. Announcing tons of releases at major shows to hype their "superior exclusive studio support" only to have all but a tiny handful end up cancelled or "postponed" with no explanation or new release date announcements.

The plain fact is that HD DVD can and does deliver what they promise while the BD group engages in outright false release announcements and with an apparently clear conscience sells overpriced obsolete players.

Region coding perpetuated by BD - a huge step backwards for those of us who have been region free for years. The flip side of that are some of the excellent imports becoming available to HD DVD.

Can i just add Blu Ray's DRM? While it hasn't been implemented yet. I think they're just holding off till they win cause they know consumers dont want that draconian measure and might turn to HD DVD. Once Blu Ray wins what motivation do they have to not implement it?

 

[thaivo]

Can i just add Blu Ray's DRM? While it hasn't been implemented yet. I think they're just holding off till they win cause they know consumers dont want that draconian measure and might turn to HD DVD. Once Blu Ray wins what motivation do they have to not implement it?

I agree, and the studios that are supporting BD are also much more likely to switch on the Image Token, which downrezzes the signal to 560p for all but people with HDMI...

 

[Crayon Shinchan]

I can agree with this. And like I said, I understand that many here started out truly format neutral.

The problem is that you're splitting hairs.

Semantically, they're essentially the same thing, even if you can get away with a technicality.

The point is, most of us in the BD camp don't care as much for what it's called or who its backed by; simply that it has a far better chance of ending this trite format war then the otherside.

 

[Superman00]

Ah, but can you dispute any of the positive points?

6. There is a reason for region coding, it may not be a good one for the consumers but a reason none the less. This is a reason why some of the studio is not supporting HD-DVD.

7. This is both a good and bad move. It helps to expand the userbase but at the same time its telling other electronic maker thats there is not much money to be made with HD-DVD when you are selling at a loss. Hardware prices drop over time but not this much in such a short time. Its good for the consumer but eventually its bad for HD-DVD.

 

[thaivo]

6. There is a reason for region coding, it may not be a good one for the consumers but a reason none the less. This is a reason why some of the studio is not supporting HD-DVD.

7. This is both a good and bad move. It helps to expand the userbase but at the same time its telling other electronic maker thats there is not much money to be made with HD-DVD when you are selling at a loss. Hardware prices drop over time but not this much in such a short time. Its good for the consumer but eventually its bad for HD-DVD.

Valid points! However, from a consumer standpoint, which side of the coin would you prefer?

 

[bishoptl]

I'd argue with bishop, but he bans folks for disagreeing

Cry me a river, Nancy.

If you have a point, bring it. Don't hide like a bitch behind OMGBANSTICK. I don't give a shit either way.

 

[Cold-Steel]

**** HD-DVD.

One format = winner for consumers.

That's all I got. *shrugs*

 

[Superman00]

Valid points! However, from a consumer standpoint, which side of the coin would you prefer?

I'm a consumer but I care for both. Company needs profit to stay alive. While I still want it for cheap. That is why I choose to wait.

 

[thaivo]

Cry me a river, Nancy.

If you have a point, bring it. Don't hide like a bitch behind OMGBANSTICK. I don't give shit either way.

He may simply be intimidated by your avatar

 

[rc213]

Valid points! However, from a consumer standpoint, which side of the coin would you prefer?

Do you actually believe that Toshiba/HD DVD do stuff like sell players at a loss and avoid region coding for the benefit of the consumer? :lol

That and I really don't like Sony and their pushing of proprietary media.

So why don't you dislike Toshiba/HD DVD for pushing their proprietary media?

 

[Mrbob]

Finally! Sept 25.

Hi def Kate Beckinsale = hawt

 

[Gary Whitta]

Ugh, that movie sucked.

 

[bud]

is there any word yet on high-def die hards?

 

[thaivo]

Do you actually believe that Toshiba/HD DVD do stuff like sell players at a loss and avoid region coding for the benefit of the consumer? :lol

Not at all. What I do know is that HD-DVD is the more consumer friendly product. Are you saying that they aren't?

 

[Gary Whitta]

Not at all. What I do know is that HD-DVD is the more consumer friendly product.

It's just a shame that consumers aren't very HD-DVD friendly!

 

[Forsete]

:lol @ BD haters. Whatever will you do once HD-DVD goes belly up? Ignore HD movies?

 

[thaivo]

:lol @ BD haters. Whatever will you do once HD-DVD goes belly up? Ignore HD movies?

First of all, I don't think that day is so certain to come, and if it does it won't be so soon as you would believe.

If it does come, then I'd watch my HD-DVD's and cry... or import from Europe, Asia, etc...

 

[thaivo]

So why don't you dislike Toshiba/HD DVD for pushing their proprietary media?

Toshiba and Sony were a part of the same DVD Forum group, which was convening to agree on a next-gen format. Sony and a few others chose to split from the DVD Forum, and create their own format.

 

[Forsete]

First of all, I don't think that day is so certain to come, and if it does it won't be so soon as you would believe.

If it does come, then I'd watch my HD-DVD's and cry... or import from Europe, Asia, etc...

But movies would stop coming out on the format.
Btw, how do you cope with not having movies from the biggest studios out there? Sony Pictures, FOX, Buena Vista etc?

And you have to agree, its looking quite grim? Things never looked this bad for BD even when it hadnt been released yet.

 

[Days like these...]

I''m not bd hater but I''ve always said I'd buy a blu ray player if and when they win. However I'm starting to lean toward a combo player if the new one coming out isnt too terribly expensive.

 

[Gary Whitta]

I agree that it definitely looks grim for HD-DVD. I bought the $200 X360 player but so far I've only bought one movie for it (Children of Men) - almost all the other stuff I've wanted has been on BD and when it's on both formats I'll usually get the BD because my PS3 runs quieter than my 360.

 

[thaivo]

But movies would stop coming out on the format.
Btw, how do you cope with not having movies from the biggest studios out there? Sony Pictures, FOX, Buena Vista etc?

I've actually seen more DVD's on my player than HD-DVD's, I'd guess the same is true for BD supporters as well. Of course I'd prefer HD versions of the discs, but DVD isn't exactly ugly.

And you have to agree, its looking quite grim? Things never looked this bad for BD even when it hadnt been released yet.

Maybe not grim, but not overyly positive. If you look at the numbers, they show that HD has a significant grasp on the CE market.... even with the PS3, the ratio for software sales is not overwhelming, and read somewhere that it's 1.9 million discs vs. 1.6 million disks... considering that there are much more BD players out there, you'd expect that ratio to be much more in favor of BD.

That, and although they seem format neutral, Warner and Paramount have made statements and done things which show that they prefer HD-DVD.

 

[rc213]

Toshiba and Sony were a part of the same DVD Forum group, which was convening to agree on a next-gen format. Sony and a few others chose to split from the DVD Forum, and create their own format.

I don't see how that makes it Sony's proprietary media any more that HD DVD is Toshiba's proprietary media.

 

[bigmakstudios]

Exactly, true movie fans will want ONE format only. Format war is the reason we're not seeing caliber titles like Star-Wars, LOTR, Spierlberg movies, etc.

Currently the only ones holding up are the pro-Toshiba/Microsoft, noone else. If HD-DVD was winning then these people could make their claims, but the fact is that HD-DVD is limping and dragging the HD penetration. So it might as well just die.

No true movie fans in their right mind would want to prolong this war

Well, atleast it's forcing Sony and their supporters to bring the Blu-ray player prices down quicker than they would if Blu-ray was unopposed. :/

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Toshiba and Sony were a part of the same DVD Forum group, which was convening to agree on a next-gen format. Sony and a few others chose to split from the DVD Forum, and create their own format.

Definitely buying the propaganda. DVD Forum wasn't ever tasked with defining an HD format, two seperate groups did that. We see those formats today. DVD forum endorsed HD DVD after the fact.

Your other points (this will be fun)
What Toshiba has done right
1. The software was ready out of the gate How does this matter TODAY?
2. Good discs seem to extract every last bit of performance for the storage limitation. Example:The Prestige looks as good on an HD30 as it does a BD50. It doesn't suck as much as it might have
3. Making TrueHD mandatory in hardware This is good, but minor
4. Very consistent in releasing new firmware, adressing both fixes and new features How's that load time? Firmware fix that yet?
5. The second gen hardware is solid How's that load time? Firmware fix that yet? And how is this different from Blu-Ray?
6. Lack of region coding The first significant point. Of course, one could argue that it cost them studio support.
7. Spearheaded hardware sales by selling at a loss early to get players out thereAbsolutely. Won't matter by Christmas, though.

What Sony has done wrong
1. Released a platform that just was not ready. Shame on you Sony! Unforgivable How does this matter TODAY?
2. The PS3 is tanking as a game machine. If they hadn't miscalculated how much people were willing to pay for a game console How does this matter AT ALL?
3. Why waste disc space on PCM when you can use TrueHD? In the beginning you had BD25, mpeg2 and PCM. No thanksWasting disc space that HD-DVD doesn't even have, or worse, gives up to the DVD Combo
4. Not gotten their top tier studios to release any movies What!?

And for all that, Toshiba has done a piss-poor job of garaunteeing content to users, and instead plays up interactive features and neglects to mention how much of the movie market is unavailable to it's base, and how there's no sign of that changing.

Hell, I'll take all the early-adopter roughing (inevitable, Toshiba's just handled it slightly better) in exchange for more studio support in the medium long term.


Edit: Rereading your list, it sounds like all the reasons HD-DVD was better at the time Blu-Ray was launched. Almost none of it matters now.

 

[thaivo]

Rereading your list, it sounds like all the reasons HD-DVD was better at the time Blu-Ray was launched. Almost none of it matters now.

Ahh, who is buying who's propaganda though... What confounds me is that although BD has a capacity, bandwidth and potentially security (a negative to some) advantages, HD-DVD has more positives on the whole, including a better standard spec, better interactivity, a connection to DVD technology which makes it less costly for studios to convert to HD-DVD, dual-format capability, almost indistinguishable image and sound quality even at the lower capacity, and finally, price.

All I know is when I look at Blu-Ray and HD-DVD at a Best Buy, the image quality difference (i.e., none) does not justify the fact that one player is 2 times the price of another. Why would a consumer want to pay more for almost identical performance? Yes, that is a gross generalization, but what I see with my eyes when watching HD-DVD's and BD's is that there is no difference.

As per the fact that Blu-Ray was launched without nailed down specs, as opposed to HD-DVD... this still matters because some Blu-Ray players will not be able to utilize all of the functions that interactive BD are going to have in the future, because those players did not, and never will have the capabilities. This is not true of Toshiba, as they launched when they were ready, with a nailed down spec.

 

[Warm Machine]

Edit: Rereading your list, it sounds like all the reasons HD-DVD was better at the time Blu-Ray was launched. Almost none of it matters now.

Which is why Blu-Ray's success is so undeserved as the ball was fumbled so badly out of the gate and for many months after that.

 

[thaivo]

I don't see how that makes it Sony's proprietary media any more that HD DVD is Toshiba's proprietary media.

The way I see it, the DVD Forum, which included Sony, wanted a industry standard, which would be most affordable to consumers and the studios. Sony disagreed, and left to start their own forum, therefore splintering the next gen video market. They also made no considerations as to costs to consumers.

Yes, I blame Sony, and yes I admit to having a bias against Sony. I simply do not understand why one would want to pay more for less. That, and I have a penchant for cheering on underdogs.

 

[Chemo]

The way I see it, the DVD Forum, which included Sony, wanted a industry standard, which would be most affordable to consumers and the studios. Sony disagreed, and left to start their own forum, therefore splintering the next gen video market. They also made no considerations as to costs to consumers.

Yes, I blame Sony, and yes I admit to having a bias against Sony. I simply do not understand why one would want to pay more for less. That, and I have a penchant for cheering on underdogs.

Less what?

 

[thaivo]

Less what?

Functionality mainly.

 

[krypt0nian]

This is the most consistently entertaining thread on GAF. :lol