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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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djkimothy

Member
thaivo said:
I think you are forgetting that early adopters are exactly the kind of people that do care. :lol

Well, these are the people that are making educated purchases and weighing their options. They knew what they were getting into. They are not the impulse buyers you see at walmart. they new those players were feature gimped. And they will live with that decision satisfied that it'll play all Blu-ray released.

Really, this is a non-issue that you bring up.
 

ManaByte

Member
djkimothy said:
Well, these are the people that are making educated purchases and weighing their options. They knew what they were getting into. They are not the impulse buyers you see at walmart. they new those players were feature gimped. And they will live with that decision satisfied that it'll play all Blu-ray released.

Really, this is a non-issue that you bring up.

What? Do you honestly believe the commission-driven sales peon at the local electronics store told people their $1,000 BRD player was feature gimped when preaching the virtues of the format to them just to get their "sell a BRD player, get a bonus" bonus? Really? A small portion of early adopters know, but those people being sold on a BRD player by the Disney mall tour DO NOT know.
 

DSWii60

Member
DSWii60 said:
This quote got me a bit confused. I've always thought of Blu-Ray as having that extra tough scratch-resistant layer so the data would be protected better even though there is less of the layer. Does this mean that HD-DVDs are less prone to scratches than Blu-Ray?

Can someone answer the question above please. It may be stupid, but I'm so pissed off with scratched discs, I was going to buy a Blu-Ray player instead of HD-DVD because of that.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
ManaByte said:
Ever think that studios may know more about that than we do? They're already planning and announcing their October-December BD releases and there isn't a single one that uses any of those promised features before next summer. If it IS going to be ready to be patched out to players in October; you'd think someone would be taking advantage of it this year instead of mid-to-late 2008.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Finding Nemo was mentioned in this thread as having 1.1 features according to Disney ... and its being released in the fall.
 
Apparently the Denon Profile 1.1 BD player is being delayed until the Q2 of 2008. Maybe because the Profile isn't ready yet for this fall, or maybe they want to make it a dual-format player...who knows.

About the HDi interactivity, it opens a lot of possibilities for movie studios to take advantage of it. Whether you like it or not, they could use it to bring micro transactions to their movies, just like the ringtones downloads and cellphone wallpapers seen in 300 HD DVD.

One particular thing that I would like to see would be being able to download extra contents from a special edition re-release from a previous release that you already own for a small amount of $$$, instead of just paying another $30 for the whole movie.

Someone grabbed a screenshot from the latest HD DVD promo which looks interesting.

5yx8s4j.jpg
 

Xater

Member
DSWii60 said:
Can someone answer the question above please. It may be stupid, but I'm so pissed off with scratched discs, I was going to buy a Blu-Ray player instead of HD-DVD because of that.

AFAIK BDs a more scratch resistant but if you had no problems with your DVDs your HD DVD are not any more fragile than them.
 

thaivo

Member
djkimothy said:
Really, this is a non-issue that you bring up.
I'm curious to see how much of a "non-issue" it is when the new spec comes around. :D
Then there is BD 2.0 :lol

I think you over estimate how knowledgeable most of the early adopters were. Presently, it would be a rather large mistake to buy a BD player until at least 1.1 comes around. I wonder if Best Buy clerks are advising buyers of this fact... highly doubt it. :lol
 

ManaByte

Member
Onix said:
Actually, I'm pretty sure Finding Nemo was mentioned in this thread as having 1.1 features according to Disney ... and its being released in the fall.

FALL 2008!

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/pressrelease_disney2008bluray.html

This exciting slate of Blu-ray Disc releases will begin with The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe in spring 2008, followed by National Treasure in summer of 2008 and culminating with Disney/Pixar's Finding Nemo and Sleeping Beauty in fall 2008.
 

DSWii60

Member
Xater said:
AFAIK BDs a more scratch resistant but if you had no problems with your DVDs your HD DVD are not any more fragile than them.

Thanks. Thats what I thought, but the article in The Economist (see 1 page back) said otherwise.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
The Main Event said:
One particular thing that I would like to see would be being able to download extra contents from a special edition re-release from a previous release that you already own for a small amount of $$$, instead of just paying another $30 for the whole movie.

Considering the limited amount of memory dedicated players have, I don't see that really being viable.
 

ManaByte

Member
DSWii60 said:
Thanks. Thats what I thought, but the article in The Economist (see 1 page back) said otherwise.

No it didn't.

It was talking about how the discs were structured in terms of how they are manufactured; not scratch resistance.

Since the data layer on a BRD is shallower than that on DVD or HD-DVD; it requires different equipment to press where as DVD and HD-DVD can be pressed on the same equipment with just minor modifications being made.
 

djkimothy

Member
thaivo said:
I'm curious to see how much of a "non-issue" it is when the new spec comes around. :D
Then there is BD 2.0 :lol

I think you over estimate how knowledgeable most of the early adopters were. Presently, it would be a rather large mistake to buy a BD player until at least 1.1 comes around. I wonder if Best Buy clerks are advising buyers of this fact... highly doubt it. :lol

Seeing how the PS3 will supposedly have a firmware update and that the vast majority of Blu-ray players are PS3. It's a non-issue.
 

ManaByte

Member
Onix said:
I'll have to search for it ... IIRC, it was referring to one of the 2007 titles though (I guess that means Cars or Rat?).


I'm at work though, so I can't really look right now.

The Disney PRESS RELEASE says 2008. Cars, Ratatouille, and Pixar Shorts are 2007.

WALT DISNEY STUDIOS HOME ENTERTAINMENT ANNOUNCES
THE DISNEY BLU-RAY TITLE WAVE COMING 2008

Burbank, CA, August 17, 2007 -- Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment (WDSHE) announced today more innovations in the Blu-ray format with the Studio's first ever Platinum Blu-ray release, the Studio's first BD-Live title, and full motion picture-in-picture Blu-ray bonus features.

The Studio announced the first animated Platinum coming to Blu-ray will be the timeless treasure Sleeping Beauty. Releasing Sleeping Beauty on Blu-ray marks a milestone for the format as these titles are not released until a format has been proven both technologically and in terms of consumer acceptance -- and Disney's animated releases in the past have been a major catalysis for any format's growth. Pinocchio's release on VHS and Snow White's release on DVD marked major growth milestones for both of those formats. The Sleeping Beauty Blu-ray Disc release will also include a virtual castle and multi-player activities -- both utilizing the BD-Live technology.

"The Platinum titles are the crown jewels of the Disney Studios and we do not take releasing them lightly on any format. The proven Blu-ray technology has allowed us to take our films to new heights, fully utilizing the larger capacity and interactive capabilities for an incredible all-new consumer experience," commented Bob Chapek, President of Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment.

In addition, WDSHE announced the special edition release of the action-adventure blockbuster National Treasure, which will become the Studio's first BD-Live Blu-ray Disc title. In addition, the Studio will bring two of its treasured family classics to Blu-ray Disc, Disney/Pixar's Finding Nemo and The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe, both of which will feature full motion picture-in-picture bonus features,

"The strides that we've made with this format are just the tip of the iceberg and we are confident that consumers will be astounded by the level of entertainment that can only be achieved by using the maximum capacity of the Blu-ray Disc format. All of these wonderful titles will appeal to the ever growing Blu-ray market and we are extremely proud to offer these in the most pristine and robust presentations ever for Disney fans around the globe," continued Chapek.

This exciting slate of Blu-ray Disc releases will begin with The Chronicles of Narnia: The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe in spring 2008, followed by National Treasure in summer of 2008 and culminating with Disney/Pixar's Finding Nemo and Sleeping Beauty in fall 2008.

About Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment

Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment, a recognized leader in the home entertainment industry, is the marketing, sales and distribution company for Walt Disney, Touchstone, Hollywood Pictures, Miramax and Buena Vista product which includes DVD, Blu-ray Disc, and electronic distribution. Walt Disney Studios Home Entertainment is a division of The Walt Disney Studios.

National Treasure will be BD Live and both Narnia and Nemo have PiP, but none of them are 2007 releases.
 

thaivo

Member
djkimothy said:
Seeing how the PS3 will supposedly have a firmware update and that the vast majority of Blu-ray players are PS3. It's a non-issue.

I mentioned in my first post about this and how the PS3 was likely to be upgradeable, since they have all the capabilities even up to 2.0.

I had assumed we were talking out stand-a-lones. If not, then why suggest that they buy another BD player? :lol
 

jjasper

Member
The only thing about the web features is that I don't have ethernet near my set up (when I wanted to update the firmware I had to carry it to where the internet was and hook it up to a 20 inch tv to update it, so they better have a wireless solution (if they don't already I never really looked into it)
 

rkenshin

Member
djkimothy said:
Seeing how the PS3 will supposedly have a firmware update and that the vast majority of Blu-ray players are PS3. It's a non-issue.

Shouldn't all Bluray players support firmware upgrades?
 

thaivo

Member
jjasper said:
The only thing about the web features is that I don't have ethernet near my set up (when I wanted to update the firmware I had to carry it to where the internet was and hook it up to a 20 inch tv to update it, so they better have a wireless solution (if they don't already I never really looked into it)

Me, I'm lucky that my cable modem is right next to my TV. I don't have a desktop PC at my house, as my wife and I use our laptops.

Perhaps you should get a wireless bridge. I think some WiFi routers can be converted into a bridge as well. Should only cost around $20-30.
 
The Main Event said:
Apparently the Denon Profile 1.1 BD player is being delayed until the Q2 of 2008. Maybe because the Profile isn't ready yet for this fall, or maybe they want to make it a dual-format player...who knows.

About the HDi interactivity, it opens a lot of possibilities for movie studios to take advantage of it. Whether you like it or not, they could use it to bring micro transactions to their movies, just like the ringtones downloads and cellphone wallpapers seen in 300 HD DVD.

One particular thing that I would like to see would be being able to download extra contents from a special edition re-release from a previous release that you already own for a small amount of $$$, instead of just paying another $30 for the whole movie.

Someone grabbed a screenshot from the latest HD DVD promo which looks interesting.

5yx8s4j.jpg

Or how about True HD tracks for all those CRAPPY 1.5mbps DD+ tracks.

That's right! This audio whole will never relent! :lol
 

thaivo

Member
rkenshin said:
Shouldn't all Bluray players support firmware upgrades?

They do.. it's just that the new specs add things like ethernet ports, larger internal memmory. The one thing I don't understand is the Java component, shouldn't most of the BD players have processors that could handle that programs generated by that language?
 

thaivo

Member
DarkJediKnight said:
Or how about True HD tracks for all those CRAPPY 1.5mbps DD+ tracks.

That's right! This audio whole will never relent! :lol

I wish I had a sound system that could show me the difference between all these sound encodes.. :D My current sound system isn't cutting it.
 

ManaByte

Member

Netflix: Demand for Blu-ray and HD DVD Evenly Split, But Tiny

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...Blu-ray_and_HD_DVD_Evenly_Split,_But_Tiny/895

The nation's leading online DVD rental service says demand among its customers for both high-def disc formats is equal, but (no surprise) it pales in comparison to standard-def DVD.

In an interview published today in the San Jose Mercury News, Netflix founder and CEO Reed Hastings says his company is seeing relatively low demand for either next-gen format, but -- in sharp contrast to disc sales figures (which show Blu-ray leading HD DVD by a factor of two) -- neither format is more popular than the other at Netflix.

"We carry all the Blu-ray titles and we carry all the HD DVD, so we're agnostic. And we think the solution in that market is to have the studios publish on both," said Hastings. "(Customer demand) is pretty evenly split between them (but it's) tiny, like a percent or something."

Netflix has allowed its members to add high-def discs on both formats to their rental queue since before their respective launches, starting with HD DVD in March 2006, followed by Blu-ray in May of that year.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
ManaByte said:
The Disney PRESS RELEASE says 2008. Cars, Ratatouille, and Pixar Shorts are 2007.



National Treasure will be BD Live and both Narnia and Nemo have PiP, but none of them are 2007 releases.

Ahh ... okay, thanks for looking it up.


To be honest, it doesn't surprise me. MS is pretty good with creating toolsets (at least preliminary, if buggy ones) right off the bat. So it makes sense that HDi had at least some features (PiP) right off the bat. The more advanced stuff however, obviously will take some time.

In the case of BDJ, the initial toolset is probably pretty barebones ... so it will take time for official tools, as well as studio-specific tools to be generated.



It does suck, as I am a BD owner ... but in the long-run for the platform, isn't really an issue. I can see why Paramount is quick to 'sell' it as a datapoint, but conveniently ... after the reported 18 months are up, it is no longer an issue :p
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
thaivo said:
They do.. it's just that the new specs add things like ethernet ports, larger internal memmory. The one thing I don't understand is the Java component, shouldn't most of the BD players have processors that could handle that programs generated by that language?

Yes. So certain features will be able to be added via firmware ... just the not all.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Onix said:
Yes. So certain features will be able to be added via firmware ... just the not all.

actually one of the things that wont be added is the requirement for a second video decoder (or whatever you call it) for PIP features. BDJ is going to require that the PIP video be capable of being 1080p as well so that you can hotswap them and get HD quality vids.

HDDVD can do the hotswapping of the PIP content with the movie, but the PIP content is 480p max and doesnt look as good once blown up to the full screen (I think that weird anime sponsored by cup o noodle does this). I would imagine most PIP content on HDDVD isnt even 480p b/c it is so small, but if you are going to do the hotswap trick you would need to give it a higher rez..

Some stuff like interactive menus might be able to be done with all of the players via firmware, but a ton of stuff just isnt going to work without buying a new player. PS3 however should be capable of BD1.1 functions.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
jjasper said:
you would think if there wasn't a big demand they would be able to keep a lot of titles in stock instead of long and very long waits.

no joke, I canned my blockbuster subscription because I would allways get stuff from the bottom of my list I didnt really want to see just because it was actually in stock.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
StoOgE said:
actually one of the things that wont be added is the requirement for a second video decoder (or whatever you call it) for PIP features. BDJ is going to require that the PIP video be capable of being 1080p as well so that you can hotswap them and get HD quality vids.

HDDVD can do the hotswapping of the PIP content with the movie, but the PIP content is 480p max and doesnt look as good once blown up to the full screen (I think that weird anime sponsored by cup o noodle does this). I would imagine most PIP content on HDDVD isnt even 480p b/c it is so small, but if you are going to do the hotswap trick you would need to give it a higher rez..

Some stuff like interactive menus might be able to be done with all of the players via firmware, but a ton of stuff just isnt going to work without buying a new player. PS3 however should be capable of BD1.1 functions.


Wait ... so you're saying a secondary decoder will NOT be necessary? In otherwords, older players may be able to handle PiP?
 
StoOgE said:
BDJ is going to require that the PIP video be capable of being 1080p as well so that you can hotswap them and get HD quality vids.
This is false. An HD capable secondary video decoder is optional, just as it is on HD DVD.
Onix said:
Wait ... so you're saying a secondary decoder will NOT be necessary? In otherwords, older players may be able to handle PiP?
No (other than the PS3).
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
chinaismine said:
This is false. An HD capable secondary video decoder is optional, just as it is on HD DVD.

whats the point of BRJ specs if they are optional?

Onix, I was saying the opposite, that a secondary decoder will very likely be required.
 
StoOgE said:
whats the point of BRJ specs if they are optional?

Onix, I was saying the opposite, that a secondary decoder will very likely be required.
The secondary video decoder has nothing to do with BD-J. The mandatory secondary video decoder (which does NOT have to be capable of HD) is a feature of Profile 1.1 players.
 

thaivo

Member
chinaismine said:
The secondary video decoder has nothing to do with BD-J. The mandatory secondary video decoder (which does NOT have to be capable of HD) is a feature of Profile 1.1 players.

Looking at all the confusion, makes me wonder why these things were not mandated to begin with. Perhaps because there were so many other CE manufacturers involved, as opposed to just Toshiba on the HD-DVD side. It certainly isn't a consumer friendly approach. :lol Were these upgrades (i.e., ethernet, larger internal memmory, additional video decoders, etc.) a part of the original plan?
 

SRG01

Member
DSWii60 said:
Can someone answer the question above please. It may be stupid, but I'm so pissed off with scratched discs, I was going to buy a Blu-Ray player instead of HD-DVD because of that.

BD discs do have a scratch resistant layer, so don't worry about it.

And Re: the previous Economist article, it mentions the layer not because of any technological advantage, but rather because HD DVDs are cheaper because they use existing technologies.
 

Laurent

Member
But I don't get why they specified that the HD-DVD was burned more deeply if the BRD has a scratch resistant layer anyway?! This article is soooooooo biaised it's not even funny!
 

ManaByte

Member
Laurent said:
But I don't get why they specified that the HD-DVD was burned more deeply if the BRD has a scratch resistant layer anyway?! This article is soooooooo biaised it's not even funny!

Um, no it is not.

ManaByte said:
It was talking about how the discs were structured in terms of how they are manufactured; not scratch resistance.

Since the data layer on a BRD is shallower than that on DVD or HD-DVD; it requires different equipment to press where as DVD and HD-DVD can be pressed on the same equipment with just minor modifications being made.
 

Laurent

Member
ManaByte said:
It was talking about how the discs were structured in terms of how they are manufactured; not scratch resistance.

Since the data layer on a BRD is shallower than that on DVD or HD-DVD; it requires different equipment to press where as DVD and HD-DVD can be pressed on the same equipment with just minor modifications being made.
Missed this post, sorry. But how come BRD is shallower than a regular if it features a scratch resistant layer?
 

Laurent

Member
Alright, the content pressing (burning), not the ink pressing... I thought they meant that they needed to use a different printing method because the discs needed to be handled more carefully or something...
 
http://www.videobusiness.com/article/CA6471669.html

Currently VP of kids and sports marketing, Marticorena has been promoted to the senior VP of high-def post and will move into her role upon Nickerson’s departure. Reporting to Horak, Marticorena will take the reigns in WHV efforts to promote the mainstream adoption of high-def formats.

WHV spokesman Jim Noonan said that Nickerson’s leaving doesn’t suggest an upcoming shift in the studio’s high-def operations. With Paramount Home Entertainment and DreamWorks Animation now HD DVD-exclusive, WHV is the only major studio to produce high-def titles in both HD DVD and Blu-ray Disc.

“This is not about a change in strategy,” Noonan said. “This is completely his call, and he will be missed. He is smart and a workhorse.”

No change. Beatboy is a loser. Now moving on...
 
Dot50Cal said:
What the hell happened to the Bourne Supremacy??? Wasnt that top out of the gate on its release just a little while ago? Now its nowhere?

Aside from Curse of the Black Pearl, BR and HD-DVD catalog titles don't seem to sell all that well.
 
From the Home Theatre Forum:

Hello everyone,

My name is Kevin Collins and I have worked for Microsoft for the last 14 years working on database technology (Jet and SQL Mobile). I have been involved in HD DVD for almost three years; from the HD DVD Video specification process in the DVD Forum to current promotion of HD DVD features. I met a lot of you with the HTF chat in January of this year and hope to do another chat when my schedule permits to have more ongoing discussions. For those that don’t know me, I am a home theater enthusiast. Starting in 1992 I had a Pioneer laser disc player, 1994 I had a Pioneer Elite 51” RPTV, in 1997 I had the Sony DVD player. In 1999 I moved to watching DVD’s on a HTPC on a Sony G70 on a 8ft wide Stewart Filmscreen Studio Tek 130 screen and currently view HD content on a Marantz 1080P DLP PJ with BOTH formats on a Stewart Filmscreen Gray Hawk RS screen. So, even though I work at Microsoft, I have been a home theater enthusiast well before I started on HD DVD at Microsoft.

At any rate, since I am constantly traveling for HD DVD I haven't had time to become active on this forum. I’m currently on vacation but something has come up that even my wife hasn’t been able to prevent me from responding to. It has to do with posts regarding why and how Microsoft supports HD DVD. Here is an example of what I am referring to:

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/mytwocentsa141.html#dp
“8/20/07 -- Well... the high-definition format war just got more confusing for consumers, and you can thank the hubris of the folks at Microsoft for it. Their HD-DVD format (because I'm sorry, can anyone really say it still belongs to Toshiba at this point?) badly needed a shot in the arm going into the holiday season, and just got it thanks to suitcases full of cash from the Microsoft camp”

I want to go on the record stating that Microsoft did not provide any financial incentives to Paramount/Dreamworks recent decision to support HD DVD. This type of “reporting” amazes me and I challenge anyone to provide proof around these statements. They are unfounded and inaccurate.

I’m not writing this to debate opinions on why one format will or will not prevail. I’m a writing this to provide some factual information on why and how Microsoft supports HD DVD to hopefully put to rest some of the incorrect information I see online.

Originally Microsoft supported BOTH formats, then two CES’s ago, Microsoft changed to only supporting HD DVD for the following three reasons:
1) Mandatory Managed copy. BD has since also supported this and we are all waiting on the “final agreement” to be completed from AACS.
2) Guaranteed hardware features on ALL HD DVD players. The mandatory features here being persistent storage, secondary video decoder and networking. Microsoft simply believes, as do the studios, including Disney, that interactivity is a reason for consumers to move from DVD. Please reference this document for reasons that the Warner Home Video and Disney put together in the DVD Forum: http://www.dvdforum.org/images/Requi...0HD DVD Vi deo%20Application-July2005.pdf. Warner Home Video proves this out by releasing different features in 300 and Blood Diamond (networking – sharing scenes with friends and PIP) and Paramount did it with MI:3 last year with PIP only in the HD DVD version.
3) Cheaper, higher yield and greater availability of replication. A perfect case point for this is the European market where there are a multitude of HD DVD titles that are only available from the BD studios in the US. The reason for this? Cheaper replication costs and the ability to use local replicators to produce discs. BD50 discs are only produced at two plants in the world (Terre Haute, IN and Japan). Thanks to no region control in HD DVD we can all legally enjoy “Mr & Mrs Smith”, “The Prestige” and others from sites http://xploitedcinema.com/catalog/hd-dvds-c-35.html and http://amazon.co.uk/s******sr_st/203-...t=-releasedate.

For the record, Microsoft’s involvement in HD DVD rotates around supporting the format by:
1) Xbox 360 HD DVD drive
2) VC-1 support for BOTH formats
3) HDi support
4) Work in the DVD Forum from working groups up to the steering committee.

This type of support shouldn’t come as a surprise to anyone as this is what Microsoft has historically done, support developers to use tools to provide the best experience for their customers.

While a lot of people disagree with data posted on Harry Knowles site (http://www.thedigitalbits.com/articl...oap060107.html) Harry accurately reported why Paramount is supporting HD DVD moving forward when he said (http://www.aintitcool.com/node/33722):
“For those of us consuming these products - it's easy to simply believe decisions are made due to just advertising incentives, but when you speak to the technology guys inside these studios - you hear that HD DVD is cheaper, serves the technological needs of the High Definition format, that the programming languages are an extension of the established DVD format - so it is easier for them to work with. This decision is about more than an intial Toshiba advertising incentive - the decision was made at a tech level, an economic level and about a cost delivery level to the public. Paramount made this decision from the tech guys up.”

I hope this clears up the misinformation that has been reported regarding Microsoft’s involvement in the Paramount/Dreamworks decision or in the “rumored” involvement with Warner. For the record, I respect Bill in that we are both enthusiast from the days of laser discs and we are both interested in seeing movies in HD the way that they were originally on film. In the meantime, I look forward to continue showing everyone, with shipping titles, why Microsoft believes in HD DVD.

Best,

- kevin
 
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