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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
at 120hz refresh rate you cant output 24p natively anyway. you would need support for 72hz mode. if your tv accepts the signal itll have to convert it to 30p and introduce warble there instead of the player.

the pio 5080 line are 720p tvs that accept 1080p24 signal and convert to 720p24, but it has a 72hz film mode.
 

Argyle

Member
StoOgE said:
at 120hz refresh rate you cant output 24p natively anyway. you would need support for 72hz mode. if your tv accepts the signal itll have to convert it to 30p and introduce warble there instead of the player.

the pio 5080 line are 720p tvs that accept 1080p24 signal and convert to 720p24, but it has a 72hz film mode.

No.

24 * 5 = 120

(btw the term most people use is "judder" and not "warble"...and no idea if that guy's actual TV will do the right thing - but in theory, it could...)
 
http://www.tvpredictions.com/2007/10/blu-ray-vs-hd-dvd-no-one-is-winning.html

Every few months it is time to read the tea leaves and try to decipher what is going on in the HD-DVD and Blu-Ray “format war”. With all of the recent pronouncements from both camps in the last few months, the sales numbers and the endless PR BS from both sides, I have made several observations and have come to several conclusions.

1. Neither side is selling well. Quite frankly, the sales numbers from both formats remain pathetic. This may be a war with no winner. A lot of fuss was made by Warner about the sales of 300 reaching 300,000 combined on both formats. One problem, the DVD sold several millions. Quite a difference.

2. The real war is High Definition media vs. DVD. With sales of a disc on either format being a small percentage of their DVD counterpart, it is clear that the public does not see enough of a benefit to either format to pay the extra cost. The public is very happy with the quality of DVD on their HD sets. The difference between HD and BD and DVD on sets under 50 inches is not all that great and not enough to get people to spend exorbitant amounts of money for the players and the discs. With upconverting players available for well under $100 and new releases available on DVD for $13.99 and catalogue titles for under $10.00, most people do not see the need for players over $200 and discs priced at $34.99 and up. Why spend $34.99 for the new Fantastic Four BD disc when the DVD can be had for $14.99? For most consumers, that is a no brainer.

3. New releases please. The only discs from either side that sell well are new releases. Some catalogue titles have not even sold 1,000 copies. Chicago on BD and Casablanca on HD-DVD come to mind. The lesson there is related to a point in 2 above, and that is that people are happy with DVD and see no reason to purchase a title on HD or BD that they already have on DVD. Just take a look at the low number of the Pirates of the Caribbean 1 and 2 that have been sold on BD. Why? Millions of people have both on DVD and see no reason to buy them twice. I would bet that even though it was a terrible movie, Pirates 3 will sell more than the first two did combined on BD in December. If I were a studio, I would concentrate on new releases. Catalogue titles would be limited to newly re-mastered classics. Blade Runner comes to mind. On the HD-DVD side, those discs would be combos only with no separate DVD release and will be priced accordingly to make them attractive to the consumer. Paramount is taking this approach with the upcoming Star Trek The Original Series box set, except for the reasonable price part.

4. Prices of HD and BD discs are way too high. They would sell a lot more of each at $19.99 than they will at $34.99.

5. The BD CE companies can’t be happy at the number standalones they are selling. For them, the whole point of BD was to sell machines at much higher price points than they were getting for DVD players. With the price cuts on the PS3, with a new $399.00 PS3 available on October 28th, companies like Panasonic and Pioneer will have to continue to cut the prices of their machines to compete. I don’t think they will want to have to sell machines at a loss or barebones profits just to compete with the PS3.

6. Sony may win the format war but at what cost? Sony’s gaming division is already suffering huge losses due to the PS3. While the PS3 has helped give BD the edge, although not much of one, the high cost of the players and lack of games has made it a loser in the console wars, which is much more important than the home theater market. HD media will be obsolete due to downloads long before the gaming market moves on to some other form of distribution.

7. I thought the war was over! The BDA (Blu-ray Disc Association) should just keep their mouth’s shut. They proclaimed victory back at CES 2007 and have continued to repeat that line ever since, even in the face of slowing disc sales and the Paramount announcement. Reading the various forums, even some of the fanboys wish the BDA would quit with these pronouncements as it makes them look bad. Every positive development on the HD side or bad news from the BD side is met with the same pronouncement to the effect “Never mind, we have already won!” The most recent questionable announcement from the BDA concerns the issue of their production yields on the BD50 discs. There were posting on other forums and websites claiming that the yield rates for BD50 discs was poor and that the discs were being produced with reduced capacity as a way to increase yields. Not true claimed the BDA, claiming that great strides were made in the last year getting the yields up over 75%. As was pointed out by David Vaughn over the UltimateAV, these same claims were made last year. Something clearly does not compute on that issue. Problems and costs associated with BD50 yields was one of the reasons Paramount cited in their decision to drop BD and is likely something Warners is watching very closely. While some puffery and spinning is to be expected in the PR battle, outright lies are not. Trying to lie your way to a victory is no way to win this war.

8. The Paramount decision has had an effect on the market place. There has been a clear increase in the sales of HD titles vs BD ones since Paramount’s switch to HD exclusivity as judged by the Nielsen numbers. While there are weekly ebbs and flows, the numbers have been improving in HD’s favor since the announcement. This week, BD only lead 54-46, a far cry from the 70-30 weeks common prior to the announcement. It will be interesting to see where these numbers tilt, if at all, in the coming weeks with the release of some blockbuster titles from both camps.

9. There are too many issues with the playback of discs from both sides. The problems with the recent Fox releases of Fantastic Four 2 and The Day After Tomorrow not playing at all in one Samsung and the LG BD machine is totally unacceptable, as were the problems with some HD combo discs. More coordination is necessary between the CE companies and the studios on both sides to iron out these problems. We are too far into this process to still have these problems.

10. Despite the claims of technical superiority from the BDA, both camps can produce outstanding looking and sounding products. With the VC-1 and AVC codecs, the BD capacity advantage is not much of one at all in the real world. Nor is the higher bitrate encodes possible on BD as evidenced by the recent Nature’s Journey disc reviewed here.

11. The war increasingly looks like it will be a stalemate. I can envision all studies, with the possible exception of Sony, publishing in both formats by the end of 2008. Each side will have a difficult time leaving all those profits on the table that could be made by selling to the other half of the market. The only way I foresee one side winning would be if Warner’s goes exclusive. If they go HD exclusive, game over and BD becomes nothing more than a niche format. The same is true should they go BD exclusive, although the war will last longer than it would if they went HD exclusive, but only a year at most.

12. If you have one player or the other, get one of each. Be format neutral. That way you get to enjoy all the content from both sides. If you can wait, get the Samsung Dual format player as it appears to be BD profile 1.1 complaint and fully certified for HD interactivity. Furthermore, it appears that it will decode DTS-MA internally and pass that through its 7.1 analog outs. For me, that would be worth the extra cost over purchasing one player from both camps.

13. Finally, people take this war too damn seriously. I am not paid by either side to buy their players or buy their movies. I do not own stock of any player in the war and am not employed by any of them. I like to watch movies at home with great PQ and AQ as it is fun. Getting angry or being as obnoxious fanboy makes no sense to me. I get no jollies and do not derive my self worth by picking the right side in the war. Guys, get a life.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Argyle said:
No.

24 * 5 = 120

(btw the term most people use is "judder" and not "warble"...and no idea if that guy's actual TV will do the right thing - but in theory, it could...)


damn my math skills :(
 

Bebpo

Banned
Warm Machine said:
Too bad because all the other points are bang on.

Like how the Paramount decision was the reason for HD-DVD doing well last week, not maybe knocked up?

It's a pretty stupid article with the author just seeing what he wants to believe.
 
Bebpo said:
Like how the Paramount decision was the reason for HD-DVD doing well last week, not maybe knocked up?

Funny thing about that:

The Paramount decision has had an effect on the market place.

...

This week, BD only lead 54-46, a far cry from the 70-30 weeks common prior to the announcement.

1. BD still beat HD-DVD for that week, and the ratio has still been 60-70/40-30 for previous weeks.
2. The Paramount announcement was made nearly a month and a half ago (August 20th).
 

Stinkles

Clothed, sober, cooperative
StoOgE said:
at 120hz refresh rate you cant output 24p natively anyway. you would need support for 72hz mode. if your tv accepts the signal itll have to convert it to 30p and introduce warble there instead of the player.

the pio 5080 line are 720p tvs that accept 1080p24 signal and convert to 720p24, but it has a 72hz film mode.


And yet these formats still aren't selling well to the mainstream public! Crazy!
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day

Bebpo

Banned
Days like these... said:
The author makes some pretty good points especially his 2nd point point about SD movies being "good enough" for most people and them being happy with dvd on their hd sets for now.

Of course I knew it wouldnt be long before someone would in come in here and be totally dismissive of the article with a one liner and Bebpo didnt disappoint.

Hey I think both formats are doomed as well and have given up buying films in either for the most part!

But just because the formats are doomed, doesn't make a half-assed article on why they are doomed any more right.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
_leech_ said:
Funny thing about that:



1. BD still beat HD-DVD for that week, and the ratio has still been 60-70/40-30 for previous weeks.
2. The Paramount announcement was made nearly a month and a half ago (August 20th).

I think you're missing the point. It's obvious that HD DVD has been performing better on average than they were before the Paramount announcement. I don't see how you can deny that if you've been paying attention to the weekly sales that are posted here (which I suspect you haven't been doing or you've missed some weeks).

The ratios were pretty steady in the 70/30 range whereas now they are closer to 60/40.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
BTW, Amir's no longer on the HD DVD team. :(

I don't think we'll ever see another person in this space who's both knowledgeable about all aspects of the format war AND willing to speak on it using their real name.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
xS1TH L0RDx said:
i really hope warner goes hd-dvd exclusive.

Yeah ... that would be awesome since it would basically confirm a stalemate. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if people give up on both formats.
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
Onix said:
Yeah ... that would be awesome since it would basically confirm a stalemate. At that point, I wouldn't be surprised if people give up on both formats.

Give up on both formats and do what? Go back to SD? *shudders at the thought* Or how about digital download? I'm not too keen on DD actually I hate the idea.
 

Raistlin

Post Count: 9999
Days like these... said:
Give up on both formats and do what? Go back to SD? *shudders at the thought* Or how about digital download? I'm not too keen on DD actually I hate the idea.

I'm not happy with either proposition. Unfortunately some analysts believe it could happen if a format 'winner' doesn't happen in time.
 

Bebpo

Banned
Days like these... said:
Give up on both formats and do what? Go back to SD? *shudders at the thought* Or how about digital download? I'm not too keen on DD actually I hate the idea.

I've just given up on movies.
 

HyperionX

Member
HD-DVD has went from "worth a look", to then a loser and something of a laugh, and now it's just being plain annoying. Please, somebody end this as soon as possible. A lot of us don't care how, and we'd even support HD-DVD if we thought it had a meaningful shot, but as of right now it's really HD-DVD that's holding us back. The sooner someone in this fight capitulates the sooner we'd all be better off.
 
HyperionX said:
HD-DVD has went from "worth a look", to then a loser and something of a laugh, and now it's just being plain annoying. Please, somebody end this as soon as possible. A lot of us don't care how, and we'd even support HD-DVD if we thought it had a meaningful shot, but as of right now it's really HD-DVD that's holding us back. The sooner someone in this fight capitulates the sooner we'd all be better off.


oh jesus christ.
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
xS1TH L0RDx said:
oh jesus christ.
keeley_hazell_sept_zoo_small.jpg

Oh jesus christ is right. *drool*
 

ghostmind

Member
I am seriously thinking about putting my HD purchases on hold until one format is "victorious", if that is even possible now. Maybe going back to DVD until a true successor emerges isn't such a bad idea...
 

captive

Joe Six-Pack: posting for the common man
ghostmind said:
I am seriously thinking about putting my HD purchases on hold until one format is "victorious", if that is even possible now. Maybe going back to DVD until a true successor emerges isn't such a bad idea...
This, ladies and gentlemen is the result of your louded Paramount decision.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
captive said:
This, ladies and gentlemen is the result of your louded Paramount decision.

You're God damned right it is. The only way I'm touching the HD disc standards now is by way of PS3. At least that also plays games, so if HD-DVD wins it won't be entirely useless.

And seriously: I cannot wrap my head around how two disc formats, something only the accountants should worry about in terms of manufacturing costs, have bonafide fanboys. It's surreal to me. In my head, it's about as productive, menial and downright odd as a huge thread arguing the merits of a 24-hour clock vs. a 12-hour clock.
 

HyperionX

Member
xsarien said:
You're God damned right it is. The only way I'm touching the HD disc standards now is by way of PS3. At least that also plays games, so if HD-DVD wins it won't be entirely useless.

And seriously: I cannot wrap my head around how two disc formats, something only the accountants should worry about in terms of manufacturing costs, have bonafide fanboys. It's surreal to me. In my head, it's about as productive, menial and downright odd as a huge thread arguing the merits of a 24-hour clock vs. a 12-hour clock.

Slightly different than that: One thing BD has over HD-DVD is that it has alternative uses: PS3 games, ROM storage and data backup. I much rather have a BD victory since it'll carve out its own market space anyways, as opposed to HD-DVD which can only be a HD replacement for DVDs.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
xsarien said:
You're God damned right it is. The only way I'm touching the HD disc standards now is by way of PS3. At least that also plays games, so if HD-DVD wins it won't be entirely useless.

And seriously: I cannot wrap my head around how two disc formats, something only the accountants should worry about in terms of manufacturing costs, have bonafide fanboys. It's surreal to me. In my head, it's about as productive, menial and downright odd as a huge thread arguing the merits of a 24-hour clock vs. a 12-hour clock.

That's one fucking shit-ass strawman you've got there.

You honestly can't fathom how 2 things that do a similar job, with some differences would have different supporters?

Honestly? Isn't that pretty much what all the greatest rivalries break down to? 2 sides that do similar things with some differences?
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
Crayon Shinchan said:
That's one fucking shit-ass strawman you've got there.

You honestly can't fathom how 2 things that do a similar job, with some differences would have different supporters?

Arguments over technical standards at the consumer level? Yes, actually, I do find it quite odd. Because no matter who the fuck wins, we're all still going to be watching movies in 1080p and getting even more extras. Beyond that, you'd be REALLY hard-pressed to find someone who even notices if their player has an ethernet port or if their discs support 51GB vs. 50GB. As long as you can still get the latest season of 24 at Best Buy, I can guarantee you that nobody's going to give a rat's ass if the package says "HD DVD" or "Blu-Ray".

And that's the elephant in the room thread, isn't it? The people who are the most important to HD discs' future really don't care which standard comes out on top.

One of these standards associations could spontaneously combust first thing tomorrow morning, and I really wouldn't care which one it is. This battle is stupid with a capital "$".
 

Vyer

Member
xsarien said:
You're God damned right it is. The only way I'm touching the HD disc standards now is by way of PS3. At least that also plays games, so if HD-DVD wins it won't be entirely useless.

And seriously: I cannot wrap my head around how two disc formats, something only the accountants should worry about in terms of manufacturing costs, have bonafide fanboys. It's surreal to me. In my head, it's about as productive, menial and downright odd as a huge thread arguing the merits of a 24-hour clock vs. a 12-hour clock.

I agree, but I'd imagine it is because one is pretty tightly tied to a specific video game system/company.
 

icecream

Public Health Threat
xsarien said:
One of these standards associations could spontaneously combust first thing tomorrow morning, and I really wouldn't care which one it is. This battle is stupid with a capital "$".
Except for the fact that those the companies and properties on each side have invested too much by now to just give up and go.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
icecream said:
Except for the fact that those the companies and properties on each side have invested too much by now to just give up and go.

I know it's cliche to say "That's not my problem," but in this case it really isn't my problem.
 

Bebpo

Banned
I don't know how people could go back to dvd honestly. There are dozens of movies I'm somewhat interested in seeing that are only available on dvd, but I'll just pass and either never watch them or watch them when they get on HD format or HD cable. I just can't watch dvds :\
 
I'm thinking of just buying an hd-dvd player and netflixing both until a winner is declared. I stopped buying blu-rays after the paramount announcement...
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Bebpo said:
I don't know how people could go back to dvd honestly. There are dozens of movies I'm somewhat interested in seeing that are only available on dvd, but I'll just pass and either never watch them or watch them when they get on HD format or HD cable. I just can't watch dvds :\

I'm pretty much in the same boat, which is why I have to go format neutral at some point. I do not want to watch dvd's anymore.

do.not.want
 

terrene

Banned
StoOgE said:
at 120hz refresh rate you cant output 24p natively anyway. you would need support for 72hz mode. if your tv accepts the signal itll have to convert it to 30p and introduce warble there instead of the player.

the pio 5080 line are 720p tvs that accept 1080p24 signal and convert to 720p24, but it has a 72hz film mode.
Sorry, but I have a Bravia XBR with 120hz and since 120 is a multiple of 60, 30 and 24 it is quite, quite judder free in all circumstances. Very worthwhile feature.
 

Days like these...

Have a Blessed Day
I find the "I don't care who wins
as long as its bluray
guys" hilarious. I want HD DVD to win. Why? cause I own a player at least I'm not feigning like I don't really care. having said that if Blu Ray wins will I jump in? No question.

Oh and captive I think the word you were looking for is lauded
 

HyperionX

Member
Days like these... said:
I find the "I don't care who wins
as long as its bluray
guys" hilarious. I want HD DVD to win. Why? cause I own a player at least I'm not feigning like I don't really care. having said that if Blu Ray wins will I jump in? No question.

Oh and captive I think the word you were looking for is lauded

If HD-DVD was in the same position as BD is in now, we'd all be supporting HD-DVD. In fact I did, when I thought HD-DVD with it's lower cost would win out. Then it became clear that with PS3 and studio support, HD-DVD was basically dead. Then I became a BD supporter.

Hence why it seems like some of us want only BD to win when it's really because it's apparent that HD-DVD itself has no chance of winning. Thus we support BD over HD-DVD right now.
 

icecream

Public Health Threat
xsarien said:
I know it's cliche to say "That's not my problem," but in this case it really isn't my problem.
It's also not your fight then. Your criticizing is moot because you chose not to recognize the stakes and the motivation in this 'war.'
 
So I just won Weeds S1&2 on ebay for $50 and it should be here by the end of the week. Having never seen an episode I only bid becuase I had an extra $57.29 in my paypal account (which was also my max bid). What's the show like? I heard it was good but I really know next to nothing about it.
 

YYZ

Junior Member
Weeds is pretty good, but to be honest the only non-movies and non-anime I would buy on disc is Band of Brothers and stuff like Planet Earth. I've seen all the episodes of Weeds and it's enjoyable, but wouldn't watch it again.
 

Macam

Banned
Bebpo said:
I don't know how people could go back to dvd honestly. There are dozens of movies I'm somewhat interested in seeing that are only available on dvd, but I'll just pass and either never watch them or watch them when they get on HD format or HD cable. I just can't watch dvds :\

If you're talking about people that don't already own a player of either type and have seen the difference in visual quality, I can answer to that firsthand: economics. The player is the biggest sunk cost and there's just no way I'm going to risk investing a fairly good chunk of money for a relatively short-term gain. It's pretty much like owning a PS2 and holding off on getting a PS3 at the moment: too expensive, relatively little content in comparison, and the difference just doesn't justify the expense at the moment. Point in case, Planet Earth is amazing...and even though the visual quality on Blu-Ray is amazing, I'll still likely grab the DVD version rather than wait for this [pointless] battle to square itself away.
 

lupin23rd

Member
Bebpo said:
I don't know how people could go back to dvd honestly. There are dozens of movies I'm somewhat interested in seeing that are only available on dvd, but I'll just pass and either never watch them or watch them when they get on HD format or HD cable. I just can't watch dvds :\

Upscaling them doesn't make them tolerable at all? I suppose this is an option for PS3 owners, not sure about stand-alone owners though?

LotR looked good on my TV, but I guess this depends on the movie...
 

NekoFever

Member
I buy both (I have a PS3 and an HD-E1) and have no problem continuing to do so. If one format disappeared tomorrow my discs will still play and leaving my players hooked up is no trouble. I still have my Laserdisc player connected, after all.

Of course I'd prefer one format and I tend to favour HD DVD when it comes to dual-format releases. Region coding is a big reason why since we get a raw deal over here - 300 just came out here last week for £17.99 ($37), and that's assuming you buy online - so being able to import easily is a massive plus, and the problems with the copy protection on Blu-ray (which doesn't surprise me since it was the main reason for Fox and Disney going that way) aren't exactly endearing me to it. But nonetheless if Universal and Paramount both went Blu, which would probably end the format war, I'd jump ship.

I'm in a tiny minority there, though. Getting Joe Public to replace a perfectly good DVD player with something costing several times as much is a hard sell with one format, let alone two. Having more than one player hooked up to play all movies is unacceptable to all but the tech geeks with the money to spend on discs with a better picture.
 
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