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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.

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gkryhewy

Member
mrklaw said:
BOGOF or not, bluray still selling more discs when there were pretty much no new titles, Vs transformers day and date and exclusive blah blah, just puts the nail in HDDVD - for me personally.

Really? Really? Some of you guys are acting like the whole point of Paramount exclusivity was to let the HD-DVD group put out a single press release in a single week that they'd outsold blu ray. That such a single press release would not be read only by interweb fan nerds like ourselves (as in reality), but would instead ignite a firestorm of excitement throughout the mainstream media, which the blu ray group has now foiled. This does not make any sense.
 

Dot50Cal

Banned
Frankfurter said:
Because after all is said and done it'll cost him money? It's not like gas prices went down when oil prices went up...

And its not like HD DVD prices and Blu-ray prices are dead even barring fox? The argument holds no water.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
gkrykewy said:
Really? Really? Some of you guys are acting like the whole point of Paramount exclusivity was to let the HD-DVD group put out a single press release in a single week that they'd outsold blu ray. That such a single press release would not be read only by interweb fan nerds like ourselves (as in reality), but would instead ignite a firestorm of excitement throughout the mainstream media, which the blu ray group has now foiled. This does not make any sense.


did you notice I said "for me personally"? I'm making no predictions about what it does for the formats overall.

I've had both players at launch - PS3 for bluray and HDDVD addon for 360 then an A1. I sold the HDDVD and have been bluray only since then. Several times I've waivered - The Matrix release being one of the worst. And with the release of the new Toshiba EP30 in the UK I was ready to pull the trigger. Doesn't take much for me to spunk money on new hardware.

But this has stopped me - for now at least. I'll wait and see what CES brings, and then perhaps reconsider.
 

Gattsu25

Banned
dallow_bg said:
Two good posts for thought:

Comment at AVS:
You HD DVD guys are funny. Look at it this way:
The HD DVD Promotions Group spent it's "promotional money" to buy Transformers exclusively for their format.

The BDA spent its "promotional money" to do a 2 for 1 for its installed base.

So, you're applauding the group (HD DVD) that enriched another corporation (Paramount) to take a release away from Blu-Ray vs the group (BD) that put more discs in CONSUMERS hands at a great price.

Don't know about you guys, but I'll take the "promotional considerations" from the BDA any day versus seeing them go to another studio to keep releases away from HD DVD...

Carry on...
They must be really ecstatic over the current HD-DVD deal, because it is putting the BR deal to shame, in terms of value to customers
 
Dot50Cal said:
And its not like HD DVD prices and Blu-ray prices are dead even barring fox? The argument holds no water.

Really? So HD DVD players aren't cheaper than Blu Ray players? I must've missed a Blu Ray price cut.
 

Zzoram

Member
Remember all the hubbub about the $299, then sub-$200 Wal-Mart HD DVD player? Well, if that photo is to be believed, then it's here. However, this ain't some cheapo, no-name player. Nope, it's Toshiba's A2, listing for $399 back in April, now just $198. According to the AVS Forum jockey who supposedly took the pic, it'll be on sale nationwide on November 3rd with an allocation of 18 units per store. However, at least a few lucky AVS members are reporting that sales have already begun. So what's the dealio readers, how's it looking at your own local Wally World?

wal-mart198.jpg


The Toshiba A3 better featured player will be going for $298 but that version is apparently not prominantly displayed like the Toshiba A2.
 

madara

Member
Would want 1080p myself but maybe in year if these prices keep happening. Having to actually walk into Walmart though...shutter...dont think I can do that anymore.
 

Kolgar

Member
I have a nice 1080p DLP and the A2 looks smashing on it. Every bit as good as the 1080p PS3. I couldn't tell the diff if you put a gun to my head.

That said, nope, haven't seen these players at my WM's in Madison, WI. Though they only got around to putting in HD endcaps in the past couple days.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Well, its a good thing for BRD that the format war all hinged on this week and that Toshiba, et al determine company wide decisions based on pacman size.

HDDVD group had a big week. They had (very likely) their best week ever, player sales most likely increased as well. The fact that BRD outsold them due mostly to a sale really isnt going to bother them much... HDDVD proved if nothing else that they are a viable format for selling discs. 115K (or whatever it was) is very good for either of these formats for a single movie in a week.

The fact that a BOGO sale or a single release (transformers) can cause such huge waves on this format war is just proof of how nascent it is. I've been saying for months that this format war wont be decided this year... a single week and a PR coup for the BRD group doesnt change that.
 

pswii60

Member
ElectricBlue187 said:
PS3 & 360 am cry?

360? I don't see it having any affect on the 360 as you'd have to buy the add-on separately anyway.

PS3 maybe - if players as cheap as this sway the hidef war to the side of HDDVD - which may be a long shot - then PS3 will lose it's biggest percieved value-added feature. But at the rate Blu-Ray is outselling HDDVD, I'm not sure I see this happening.
 

Lhadatt

Member
Won't matter until $150, and even then it won't be a big deal. HDDVD doesn't have all of the HD movies, and this player can't do BRD, so why should I buy?

Walmart is the key to bringing these prices down, though.
 
I'm so tempted to jump on to this deal, or the one currently being offered by Best Buy for the 360 add-on. The format wars have me hesitating though.
 

Kolgar

Member
So the BDA pulled out all the stops and gave away half their Disney movies for free, and still only won the week by 2%.

For a "dead" format, HD DVD seems pretty alive and competitive to me.

Blu-ray may have scored a PR victory and they get to keep their "winning" sales record intact--technically. But in reality, this is a win for HD DVD, and the studios, who look at these things not merely by percentage of market share, but by profit, know it.
 

pswii60

Member
Link1110 said:
And the addon costs... $199. :D

I don't think MS could care too much if people stop buying the HDDVD player add-on though. It seems they're only providing that to say "Look we can do this too if you want" at the PS3. Toshiba manufacture the 360 add-on anyway, don't they?
 
pswii60 said:
I don't think MS could care too much if people stop buying the HDDVD player add-on though. It seems they're only providing that to say "Look we can do this too if you want" at the PS3. Toshiba manufacture the 360 add-on anyway, don't they?

people who want a HD-DVD player will skip over the 360 addon, and I'm sure Microsoft makes SOME money off selling that thing
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
StoOgE said:
Well, its a good thing for BRD that the format war all hinged on this week and that Toshiba, et al determine company wide decisions based on pacman size.

HDDVD group had a big week. They had (very likely) their best week ever, player sales most likely increased as well. The fact that BRD outsold them due mostly to a sale really isnt going to bother them much... HDDVD proved if nothing else that they are a viable format for selling discs. 115K (or whatever it was) is very good for either of these formats for a single movie in a week.

The fact that a BOGO sale or a single release (transformers) can cause such huge waves on this format war is just proof of how nascent it is. I've been saying for months that this format war wont be decided this year... a single week and a PR coup for the BRD group doesnt change that.

Spinnin' like a top!

Let me guess what would've been written in the event of that split in favour of HD-DVD

"Toshiba has definitive proof that HD-DVD is the winning format here. Even with the weight of an entire catalogue of movies, it managed to with a single movie swing the disc sales firmly in favour of HD-DVD.

There's no doubt, no denying that HD-DVD has not only turned this war around, but that it's on the verge of steam-rolling BD, with the christmas rush on the way and people looking for sub $200 players, this christmas season will be red!"
 
Powerslave said:
Man wtf, let blu-ray win and get it over with. Its the superior format anyway.

Why is that? Aside from more storage capacity, how is it superior? Not trolling in anyway, I'm just curios as to why you say this. And for the record, the storage capacity issue is kind of back and fourth as well as the multi-layered versions of both format continue to increase the storage.

Oh, and the 360 add-on is $179 I believe now. Not a huge difference in price obviously. But when you can get one from Best Buy right now with 9 HD-DVD's it's a pretty sweet deal.
 

Oni Jazar

Member
Kolgar said:
So the BDA pulled out all the stops and gave away half their Disney movies for free, and still only won the week by 2%.

Nice way to phrase it. One could also say that HD DVD "sweetened" paramount & dreamworks with $150 million to secure one of the hightest grossing action movies of the year to be released day and date exclusively on HD DVD and still lost to a format that had no notable releases that week.

Not that I would say that, but some might.

It's amazing how two completely different strategies created a near 50/50 split in sales. I wouldn't have been surprised if either HD DVD or Blu-ray had a monumental ratio in their favor given the successes of their strategies.

Blu-ray might not win this week's numbers however (reported next friday) with no big BOGO deals and residual Transformer sales.
 
Kung Fu Jedi said:
Why is that? Aside from more storage capacity, how is it superior? Not trolling in anyway, I'm just curios as to why you say this. And for the record, the storage capacity issue is kind of back and fourth as well as the multi-layered versions of both format continue to increase the storage.

From what I've read and heard, the storage capability seems to be higher and the audio is supposedly of lossless quality. Those alone should be enough reasons. If you're going hi-def, why choose a format that isn't the top of the line? To upgrade to HD-DVD+ in a few years? Blu-Ray will be good for shows, drastically descreasing the number of discs used. Of course, I'm not sure about those '51 GB' HD-DVD discs, if they are possible.
 

Lo-Volt

Member
It's good news for people who might be convinced to go into HD in general in the next few years. This and lower HDTV prices (thanks Vizio et al) is good news considering how averse some people are to paying for and taking advantage of such machinery. Though I guess we can always leave room for the possibility that Toshiba feels the need to get aggressive for its format's well being.
 

StoOgE

First tragedy, then farce.
Crayon Shinchan said:
Spinnin' like a top!

Let me guess what would've been written in the event of that split in favour of HD-DVD

"Toshiba has definitive proof that HD-DVD is the winning format here. Even with the weight of an entire catalogue of movies, it managed to with a single movie swing the disc sales firmly in favour of HD-DVD.

There's no doubt, no denying that HD-DVD has not only turned this war around, but that it's on the verge of steam-rolling BD, with the christmas rush on the way and people looking for sub $200 players, this christmas season will be red!"

yeah.... because Ive said tons of things exactly like that in the past. Find one and I'll give you a dollar.

Ive maintained for well over a year at this point that the format war is far too young to know anything either way. The fact that a single release can boost sales so much or a single sale can do likewise is a testament to that fact.
 

Chemo

Member
Kolgar said:
So the BDA pulled out all the stops and gave away half their Disney movies for free, and still only won the week by 2%.

For a "dead" format, HD DVD seems pretty alive and competitive to me.

Blu-ray may have scored a PR victory and they get to keep their "winning" sales record intact--technically. But in reality, this is a win for HD DVD, and the studios, who look at these things not merely by percentage of market share, but by profit, know it.
This is the most ridiculous HD DVD fanboy post I've seen in a while. Are you actually pretending that Blu-ray "only winning the week by 2%" is like, some kind of DEFEAT for the BRD group? They had no major releases and came up against the biggest movie release of the year and still sold more software.

Seriously, the spin on this is hilarious... you are in fucking denial. This was HD DVD's last chance this holiday season. Now the format is going to get spit roasted by Blu-ray releases for the rest of the year.

And on your profit point? I don't think any of the other studios give a SHIT about Paramount's "victory" with Transformers. None of them have a Transformers-sized release in the pipeline for HD DVD, and you can bet your ass that any of the studios know that that particular film would have sold 2-3x more copies on Blu-ray anyway, which just reinforces the fact that the only good reason for a company to be HD DVD exclusive is for the payoff money, not the sales. If companies learned anything from Paramount, it's how to cash a gigantic check and totally throw a wrench in the market's move toward a one format future.
 

SyNapSe

Member
Kung Fu Jedi said:
Why is that? Aside from more storage capacity, how is it superior? Not trolling in anyway, I'm just curios as to why you say this. And for the record, the storage capacity issue is kind of back and fourth as well as the multi-layered versions of both format continue to increase the storage.

Oh, and the 360 add-on is $179 I believe now. Not a huge difference in price obviously. But when you can get one from Best Buy right now with 9 HD-DVD's it's a pretty sweet deal.

I just got a HDTV so I've been trying to look into all of this nonsense also. It's baffling but outside of the storage space which I haven't heard any mentions of it being an issue I think the only thing pushing Blu-Ray was it's bundling into the PS3. I think this swayed some studios early on assuming the PS3 would sell like hotcakes and win the format war by default. I know Best Buy only carries blu-rays. If that hadn't been the case, I can't imagine a lot of people would have walked into a store and purchased a stand-alone BR player over a HD-dvd player half the price.

I did a search and it does look like hd-dvd does lossless audio, but a lot of NA releases to this point haven't included it on the disk.
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Oni Jazar said:
Blu-ray might not win this week's numbers however (reported next friday) with no big BOGO deals and residual Transformer sales.

I don't know, because they're releasing a TON of exclusives (compared to like 2 for HD DVD) and I'm not sure that Transformers will pull even half of what it did this last week:

* The Company (2007) (Sony)
* The Hills Have Eyes 2 (2007) (Fox)
* Home of the Brave (Fox)
* Hostel (Director's Cut) (Sony)
* Hostel: Part II (Sony)
* King of New York (Lionsgate)
* Meet the Robinsons (Walt Disney)
* Mr. Brooks (MGM)
* Scary Movie (Dimension)


That lineup right there should easily put them back in the driver's seat IMO. Compared to:

# Carlito's Way (Universal)
# Carlito's Way: Rise to Power (Universal)
Inside Man (Universal)
# Seed of Chucky (Universal)
Transformers week 2


What may be interesting is if the Best Buy deal (plus other free movie promotions) will actually be counted by the HD DVD promotions group. I remember an official of theirs (I don't remember if it was Ken) complaining about Sony counting promotional stuff as sales. Maybe HD DVD should play that game as well with their pack-ins and free movie promotions.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
StoOgE said:
quoted before edit.

I'm not sure what I said to warrant that at all.

You feign indignance well. Of course your real motive is to get a member of the hated camp banned for a cheap shot.

But hey! If you can't laugh about it, then you're probably taking things a little too seriously to begin with!
 
Powerslave said:
From what I've read and heard, the storage capability seems to be higher and the audio is supposedly of lossless quality. Those alone should be enough reasons. If you're going hi-def, why choose a format that isn't the top of the line? To upgrade to HD-DVD+ in a few years? Blu-Ray will be good for shows, drastically descreasing the number of discs used. Of course, I'm not sure about those '51 GB' HD-DVD discs, if they are possible.

They are both more than capable of doing the same audio, and in fact I have never heard of that being an issue. I've even read reviews of movies released on both formats that have the audio being better on HD-DVD over Blu-Ray. Of course, milage varies depending on the studios, methods of encoding, etc.

As for capacity, I don't see Blu-Ray "drastically" reducing the number of discs. Yes, it is possible that Blu-Ray capacity will allow some shows to go to say 4 discs rather than 5, but that's hardly an issue to me at all. The capacity thing is actually pretty over blown at this point, since they both have plenty of capacity for 1080p movies. It's more about the capacity for the extras including the interactive/online elements.

From a number of things that I've read, the HD-DVD environment for making those interactive and online elements is better than the one for BRD. Obviously that will probably change over time and these players are easily upgradable at this point, so we'll have to wait and see.

From what I can tell, as someone who really doesn't care who "wins" the format war, there isn't much of a difference between either format that would allow you to declare one superior over the other. At the moment, it kind of comes down to studio support as the defining difference.
 

Kolgar

Member
Chemo, it's easy to look at the 51/49 split and say, "Blu-ray won!" But it's not quite that simple.

I expected Blu-ray to win by a far larger margin thanks to that BOGO sale, especially since they've been continually winning weeks by a 2:1 margin or thereabouts.

That we just had a 51/49 week tells me this format war is far from over.

P.S. I don't expect HD DVD to win next week or any other week this year, but to be honest, I don't think it needs to. If it can sell enough hardware this holiday, I think they'll stick around for the long haul.

P.P.S. Crayon, FYI, you're still on my ignore list. For the rest of your life.
 
Right now there is a lot of reasons why the 360 addon is a good deal at Best buy. You can get Heroes season 1, plus 2 movies under $35 in store, plus King Kong packed in, and 5 free movies from a mail in offer for $179. I think the offer ends tomorrow though.
 

jjasper

Member
So with this $198 drive will MS/Toshiba drop the price on the strap on or will they continue to have sales like the one we have now with Heroes?
 

VanMardigan

has calmed down a bit.
Uh oh, a 51-49 split and this place turns to crap again. We were going so well too, with all the neutrality talk and just talking about movies, transfer quality, and special offers. Is it possible to discuss market trends without insulting each other?

In the end, I think 51-49 can be seen as a positive and negative for both camps. Personally, I think it's more of a BR victory than an HD DVD victory, but it's the closest HD DVD has gotten ALL YEAR LONG, so it's not a total loss for that camp either.

And there's no way crayon doesn't get banned for that garbage cheap shot. That's why he's on my ignore list, for sure.
 

jjasper

Member
VanMardigan said:
In the end, I think 51-49 can be seen as a positive and negative for both camps. Personally, I think it's more of a BR victory than an HD DVD victory, but it's the closest HD DVD has gotten ALL YEAR LONG, so it's not a total loss for that camp either.

I thought HD outsold BD the week Knocked Up came out, or did I just imagine that?
 
VanMardigan said:
What may be interesting is if the Best Buy deal (plus other free movie promotions) will actually be counted by the HD DVD promotions group. I remember an official of theirs (I don't remember if it was Ken) complaining about Sony counting promotional stuff as sales. Maybe HD DVD should play that game as well with their pack-ins and free movie promotions.

The Nielsen numbers do not count the mail-away promotions, but they will count stuff rung up in the stores.

Ken Graffeo may have complained about how Sony counts, but Sony's never claimed to have sold 500,000 copies of Talledega Nights, so I don't think they count pack-ins.
 

borghe

Loves the Greater Toronto Area
Powerslave said:
From what I've read and heard, the storage capability seems to be higher and the audio is supposedly of lossless quality. Those alone should be enough reasons. If you're going hi-def, why choose a format that isn't the top of the line? To upgrade to HD-DVD+ in a few years? Blu-Ray will be good for shows, drastically descreasing the number of discs used. Of course, I'm not sure about those '51 GB' HD-DVD discs, if they are possible.
the storage capacity is higher on BRD. However the audio part is bull. While most BRDs do use uncompressed LPCM audio as their primary track, a ton of HD-DVDs (and more and more every day) are using Dolby TrueHD as their primary track, which is a lossless compression format. Heck, a lot of BRDs are even starting to use Dolby TrueHD more and more.

And even still, the Dolby Digital+ tracks that almost all releases use are pretty tough to distinguish from the lossless or uncompressed tracks we're talking about here. (Remember, DD+ supports up to 6.1Mbps bitrate, 96Khz sampling frequency, and 24-bit sample length)

also, until Profile 1.1 hits Blu-ray, the interactive content is much easier to create a publish on HD-DVD than it is on BRD.
 
I don't think the difference in technology between the two is big enough to warrant a "this one should win!" type stance.

BluRay has more exclusive content, however, and that's probably a better determiner of who'll come out on top. That's why I picked it (although it may have been more prudent to wait).
 

jjasper

Member
HDD reviewed 2001, sounds like the best older catalog yet (PQ:5/5 AQ: 4/5)

Presented with identical 1080p/VC-1 transfers on Blu-ray and HD DVD, this remastered release of '2001: A Space Odyssey' features a revelatory upgrade in picture quality that's likely to leave fans buzzing with excitement. Colors are magnificent, rich, and stable from beginning to end -- skintones are perfectly saturated and primary hues are bold and vibrant. Blues and reds receive the most noticeable improvement from past DVD editions, but the entire palette is striking. I'm also happy to report that contrast is dead-on, black levels are inky, and shadow delineation reveals a variety of elements formerly cloaked in darkness.

Fine detail sets a new bar for high definition catalog releases. Facial imperfections are a cinch to spot, hair is crisply defined, and the star fields are flawless. I paused on several occasions to note actors' naturally splotchy skin and chipped fingernails. There are even scenes in this transfer that I completely re-watched just to have another chance to explore the intricacies of the sets and props. For the first time, I was able to read all of the small text Kubrick strategically placed across the film. Call me obsessed, but I found myself completely fascinated by these minor details that I'd previously been unable to enjoy. Pay close attention to the barren wilderness in the opening scenes, the space station electronics, and the slightest etchings on the ships floating above Earth. My apologies for sounding like Captain Adjective, but this transfer is just that beautiful.

The print is in excellent condition and isn't marred by softness, edge enhancement, scratches, or any distracting instances of source noise. There isn't a hint of the blockiness that haunts 'A Clockwork Orange' and the transfer easily surpasses the new 2-disc Special Edition DVD (as well as every other previous home video release of the film). As I watched this Blu-ray, I searched for something to complain about, but I'm happy to report that I failed to find a single thing. '2001: A Space Odyssey' has set a new bar for catalog transfers in high definition. For a film that's nearly forty years old, this high-def release is nothing short of a godsend.

The Audio: Rating the Sound


This Blu-ray edition of '2001: A Space Odyssey' features an uncompressed PCM 5.1 surround track (48 kHz/ 24-Bit/6.9 Mbps and a standard Dolby Digital 5.1 mix (640 kbps. While I didn't notice much of a difference between the two tracks, both sound better than ever and provide a a faithful experience that still manages to enhance Kubrick's original vision.

The classical music in the film opens up the soundfield and resonates with solid bass and stable trebles. Dialogue is crisp and perfectly prioritized, with HAL's soothing tones dominating the soundscape to good effect. Sharp sounds like bestial grunts and mechanical hisses have a distinct impact, while quiet scenes on the ship are layered with a careful level of naturalistic ambiance. This was the first time I'd noticed the subtle and comprehensive intricacies of the sound design -- small whirs, echoes through the ship, and the cooling fans inside the heavy space machinery were new to my ears. Like the clarity of fine elements in the video transfer, this high definition audio package revealed details that had escaped me so many times before on home video. I was also pleased to hear that the tracks sound much fuller than the mix on the newly released 2-disc Special Edition DVD.

The only thing that modern film fans may be disappointed by is the generally front-heavy soundfield. The original mono track has been remixed for 5.1 surround, but the rear channels have a limited presence that bolsters acoustics more than anything. The tone of the sound design is a clear product of the '60s -- particularly evident in the tenor of the voices (which can be attributed to the original recording more than anything else). Having said all that, it's hard to fathom that '2001: A Space Odyssey' could ever sound much better than it does here.
 

Crayon Shinchan

Aquafina Fanboy
Bring it on.

It's always good for a laugh to have HD-DVD shills feigning shock and indignance as a passive-aggressive method of getting people they don't like banned. Ignoring the fact that they're quite rabid about jumping on any opportunity regardless of how much of a stretch it is.

A juvenile 'yo momma' joke is all it takes to get those boys into an indignant rage. Love it!.

I'd feel guilty about the derailment, but we're looking at the ultimate thread of bloat here. I don't think 5 or 10 posts here or there is going to change much.

But for what it's worth; my 2 cents on the split; couldn't have predicted the results before hand (and wouldn't have put money on any outcome)... but couldn't have been a more 'hollywood' finish to the week (like someone else has already said).
 

gkryhewy

Member
Crayon Shinchan said:
Bring it on.

It's always good for a laugh to have HD-DVD shills feigning shock and indignance as a passive-aggressive method of getting people they don't like banned. Ignoring the fact that they're quite rabid about jumping on any opportunity regardless of how much of a stretch it is.

A juvenile 'yo momma' joke is all it takes to get those boys into an indignant rage. Love it!.

I'd feel guilty about the derailment, but we're looking at the ultimate thread of bloat here. I don't think 5 or 10 posts here or there is going to change much.

But for what it's worth; my 2 cents on the split; couldn't have predicted the results before hand (and wouldn't have put money on any outcome)... but couldn't have been a more 'hollywood' finish to the week (like someone else has already said).

Just STFU already. More discussion of 2001, fewer e-penis duels please.
 
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