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[joesmokey]

Why do people assume Toshiba is taking such a hit on these players? Wal-Mart seems to be subsidizing the price more than Toshiba.

You don't know how Wal-Mart works, do you?

I'm sure the $100 price of the A2 was considered in the deal with Toshiba. Wal-Mart doesn't take losses like that, they put the pressure on the supplier.

 

[Snah]

Stuff like Planet Earth and 2001 get good HD-DVD traction because the average HD-DVD owner is definitely older than the average BD owner (PS3 gamers make up a big chunk of the crowd).

Harry Potter is interesting. You are selling to the parents and not the kids. PS3 owners are probably more likely to be childless (higher concentration of teenagers and twentysomethings) than HD-DVD owners.

Yeah, I think that the HD-DVD consumer is more of a hardcore AV enthusiast crowd in general, so they go after these types of movies while Blu-Ray crowd eats up a release like 300, which is more of the demographic of PS3 owners.

 

[Snah]

You don't know how Wal-Mart works, do you?

I'm sure the $100 price of the A2 was considered in the deal with Toshiba. Wal-Mart doesn't take losses like that, they put the pressure on the supplier.

exactly. it makes NO sense for walmart to take a hit on something like this. this entirely rests on toshiba.

 

[BotoxAgent]

Yeah, I think that the HD-DVD consumer is more of a hardcore AV enthusiast crowd in general, so they go after these types of movies while Blu-Ray crowd eats up a release like 300, which is more of the demographic of PS3 owners.

yeah, imagine if Transformers was on Blu-Ray....it falls right into the PS3 demographic

 

[Walshicus]

Yet software is 2:1 in favour of bluray. So PS3 is *exactly* the game changer Sony had hoped.

Wait what? Software was 3:2 in favour of Blu[e!]-Ray lifetime to date surely? And 11:9 for this week?

 

[DoubleTap]

exactly. it makes NO sense for walmart to take a hit on something like this. this entirely rests on toshiba.

If it will get people into the stores, which is what these sales are for, it makes a lot of sense. How much of a hit? Who knows.

 

[FIREBABY]

Yeah, I think that the HD-DVD consumer is more of a hardcore AV enthusiast crowd in general, so they go after these types of movies while Blu-Ray crowd eats up a release like 300, which is more of the demographic of PS3 owners.

Reeeeaallllllllyyyy?

 

[Snah]

If it will get people into the stores, which is what these sales are for, it makes a lot of sense. How much of a hit? Who knows.

You think getting those people in stores is going to account for the losses they are taking on each unit? :lol

Walmart doesn't need to get people in to stores to buy their shit.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Wait what? Software was 3:2 in favour of Blu[e!]-Ray lifetime to date surely? And 11:9 for this week?

The "For the year" number is the closest we have to "since PS3 launch" and it's closer to 2:1.

 

[FIREBABY]

You think getting those people in stores is going to account for the losses they are taking on each unit? :lol

The same applies to Sony also. Amirite?

 

[Snah]

The same applies to Sony also. Amirite?

How is this even applicable to Sony?

Am I suggesting that Walmart is taking the losses on each PS3 sold?

 

[gkryhewy]

this holyday season

Why do you keep on saying "holyday" - is this some Fox News "take back christmas" bullshit?

 

[DoubleTap]

You think getting those people in stores is going to account for the losses they are taking on each unit? :lol

Walmart doesn't need to get people in to stores to buy their shit.

You talk like the only thing they're selling today is the Toshiba player. Walmart doesn't need people in their stores? I guess no company needs to make more money huh? The only point is, you just can't spread FUD that Toshiba is the only company taking a loss here. As a matter of fact you can't back it up with a sensible theory other than "Walmart doesn't need people into stores to buy their shit."

 

[OokieSpookie]

Yeah, I think that the HD-DVD consumer is more of a hardcore AV enthusiast crowd in general, so they go after these types of movies while Blu-Ray crowd eats up a release like 300, which is more of the demographic of PS3 owners.

I always thought that the HD-DVD consumer is the person looking for the cheapest way into High def media.
No hardcore AVS enthusiast would be excited over the A2, $98 or not.

I would not read so much into the sales numbers from last week to be honest, alot of HD fans grabbed Planet Earth because they could get it free with the 360 add on and because anytime anyone asks about it on either format it is pretty much called a must have.

 

[Somnia]

How is this even applicable to Sony?

Am I suggesting that Walmart is taking the losses on each PS3 sold?

They very well could be taking a small hit...I know when I worked at wal-mart when I scanned the xbox back in the day it stated we paid $6 than we sold it for...so ya

 

[Snah]

You talk like the only thing they're selling today is the Toshiba player. Walmart doesn't need people in their stores? I guess no company needs to make more money huh? The only point is, you just can't spread FUD that Toshiba is the only company taking a loss here. As a matter of fact you can't back it up with a sensible theory other than "Walmart doesn't need people into stores to buy their shit."

Walmart doesn't operate by taking ridiculous losses on a media they have no vested interest in. Getting a bunch of people in the store is not going to make up for the incredible losses on each unit sold.

So unless you can offer a tangible and compelling reason why Walmart would be willing to take such losses, which can account for thousands of dollars at each store, just so they can get traffic in a store that already is well known and gets tons of traffic anyway, I'm going to believe this is mostly a result of Toshiba. ESPECIALLY given the timing of the price cut, i.e. right during Spiderman/Ratatouille/40GB PS3 week.

 

[Snah]

They very well could be taking a small hit...I know when I worked at wal-mart when I scanned the xbox back in the day it stated we paid $6 than we sold it for...so ya

small hit != 100+ in losses/unit.

 

[Somnia]

small hit != 100+ in losses/unit.

Oh I'm not saying they are taking a big hit but they could be taking a small hit per player per an agreement with Toshiba...then again the only company I know in history to get away with bullying Wal-Mart is Disney...so who knows

 

[Oni Jazar]

That's not the point, Toshiba could even sell those at a profit.
The problem is that they have put themselves in a desperate mode situation where if they cannot win by basically giving away their low end players ( 98$ is a CRAZY price, it's as if Sony priced PS3 at 199$ this holyday season),

Actually it's as if the PS3 was $120. The A2 started at $500. This is an 80% price reduction in less then a year.

 

[DoubleTap]

Walmart doesn't operate by taking ridiculous losses on a media they have no vested interest in. Getting a bunch of people in the store is not going to make up for the incredible losses on each unit sold.

So unless you can offer a tangible and compelling reason why Walmart would be willing to take such losses, which can account for thousands of dollars at each store, just so they can get traffic in a store that already is well known and gets tons of traffic anyway, I'm going to believe this is mostly a result of Toshiba.

The bolded part is just more FUD from you. How is it a ridiculous loss for Walmart? Is it truly out of the realm of possibility that both sides are sharing the burden here? When both sides have something to gain?

 

[FIREBABY]

How is this even applicable to Sony?

Am I suggesting that Walmart is taking the losses on each PS3 sold?

Nah, you aren't suggesting that at all. Rather going on the offfensive about how Toshiba is taking a loss to give away players. Sony is also taking a loss on the PS3 having to drop the price twice this year to get the thing to move. The stand alone blu ray player isn't that big of a factor because most movies bought are from the PS3 owners not the stand alone. If you took PS3 out of the picture it would be a different story. Anway, who gives a shit on who's taking the biggest loss? As long as I can get a cheap player so be it.

 

[Beer Monkey]

I would not read so much into the sales numbers from last week to be honest, alot of HD fans grabbed Planet Earth because they could get it free with the 360 add on and because anytime anyone asks about it on either format it is pretty much called a must have.

Planet Earth on HD has outsold it on BD regularly since the title was released. Some titles just fit the current core HD-DVD demographic (older Home Theater enthusiasts) than the core BD demographic (twentysomething gamers)

 

[Snah]

The bolded part is just more FUD from you. How is it a ridiculous loss for Walmart? Is it truly out of the realm of possibility that both sides are sharing the burden here? When both sides have something to gain?

So who is taking the loss on these units. Certainly, they are not BREAKING EVEN on $99 players.

Nah, you aren't suggesting that at all. Rather going on the offfensive about how Toshiba is taking a loss to give away players. Sony is also taking a loss on the PS3 having to drop the price twice this year to get the thing to move. The stand alone blu ray player isn't that big of a factor because most movies bought are from the PS3 owners not the stand alone. If you took PS3 out of the picture it would be a different story. Anway, who gives a shit on who's taking the biggest loss? As long as I can get a cheap player so be it.

And don't you think I realize Sony is taking a loss on the PS3? That isn't the argument. What does that have to do with anything? The argument is about WHO is taking the loss on these units, and I can assure you that Walmart isn't taking a huge one at all. I think it's ludicrous to think that Walmart is taking a 100+ loss on each unit sold here. It makes absolutely no sense for their bottom line.

Who cares about who is taking a loss here? Well, given that I've heard people suggest that Walmart is the one taking the bulk of the loss here as some sort of indication of wal mart's preferential acceptance of HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, I think we need to establish that this is NOT the case.

 

[captive]

Planet Earth on HD has outsold it on BD regularly since the title was released. Some titles just fit the current core HD-DVD demographic (older Home Theater enthusiasts) than the core BD demographic (twentysomething gamers)

Thats not entirely true, there was a while there where planet earth BD outsold its HD conterpart.

 

[mr stroke]

http://www.circuitcity.com/ssm/Tosh...69466/catOid/-16221/rpem/ccd/productDetail.do

WOW, pants droping time by HDDVD
129$ CircutCity
99$ Walmart
109$ crutchfield


79.99 A2's on Blackfriday Confirmed

 

[Kolgar]

Of course PS3 has been the game-changer for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray would not be where it is today without PS3. No way, no how.

But I still think it's a little dangerous to rely so much on a game machine to carry a movie format.

edit: Holy crap, looks like Tosh is going to push A2s through a good part of this holiday!

 

[thaivo]

Can you imagine how much demand a $99 blu-ray player would generate? :lol

I'm sure a $99 BD player would do excellently. Not sure when such a thing would happen though.

people in general will jump on great deals like this, and let's face it: it's a tremendous deal.

It certainly is. The thing about it is that for every one of these people that buy the A2 for $98, means that they are less likely to buy a BD player this holiday. It would be difficult for someone to go from paying $98 for a HD player to $400.

but i still don't see it mattering much this holiday season. what happens when this holiday season ends and the war is still 2:1 with blu-ray and hd-dvd making leads, but no one making a huge lead over another? I think this is the 'worst case' scenario for blu-ray. Will Warner and other companies see that HD-DVD did all it can do and that it still didn't make much of a difference in deciding this war? I can't see CE manufacturers wanting to jump on board with HD-DVD's insane player losses strategy either.
I think blu-ray's success this holiday season depends on how well the PS3 sells and how many units sony can get into the hands of customers.

You may discount the impact of this deal, but these deals have not been limited to Walmart. Deals are springing up left and right, there was a Krutchfield deal for the A2 (in stock) for $120 just this morning.

The PS3 will be selling quite well this holiday for $399, and so will $199 HD DVD players. I guess we'll just have to wait a couple months to see how much of an effect these two strategies make.

About the fact that these prices undercut other CE companies, it's not like there is only one HD DVD player. There exists a range from the A2 to the XA2, just as there is a range for SD DVD players. If HD DVD thrives through this holiday, there will at the very least be a good chance for dual format players.

 

[FIREBABY]

Of course PS3 has been the game-changer for Blu-ray.

Blu-ray would not be where it is today without PS3. No way, no how.

But I still think it's a little dangerous to rely so much on a game machine to carry a movie format.

Exactly. And you will see this next year when the heavy hitters drop.

 

[jobber]

It's pretty simple. HD-DVD is using these cheap players as an install base. Once people have the player, they'll get some kind of profit from the sales of each movie.

 

[thaivo]

It's pretty simple. HD-DVD is using these cheap players as an install base. Once people have the player, they'll get some kind of profit from the sales of each movie.

That and there is the Wii effect. These new owners will be certainly be showing HD movies to their family members over Thanksgiving, and some of these family members will be rushing out over Thanksgiving weekend and on to grab an HD player. I hope.

 

[user friendly]

BOGO effect wearing off. Numbers are going to be higher for BD next week.

 

[The Main Event]

http://www.hddvdnbc.com/

:lol

 

[bud]

That and there is the Wii effect. These new owners will be certainly be showing HD movies to their family members over Thanksgiving, and some of these family members will be rushing out over Thanksgiving weekend and on to grab an HD player. I hope.

:lol

 

[captive]

Exactly. And you will see this next year when the heavy hitters drop.

Oh come on man, try harder. We have been hearing this exact same lame argument all year, guess what, Heavenly Sword came out, Ratchet is out, Uncharted is next and there hasnt been any sign of people not buying blu-rays for games. I know its a difficult concept, but yes people can buy games and movies at the same time!

BOGO effect wearing off. Number are going to be higher for BD next week.

Spiderman says, well duh they are going to be higher next week.

 

[ChrisJames]

That HD DVD NBC commercial is awesome. They better play that during football games!

 

[Elios83]

BTW I hope that the BDA won't be so arrogant to think that they can overcome a 300$ difference in standalone players because they have the PS3 and they have outsold HD-DVD for all the year. If they are smart they should have a 299$ BD player in time for Black Friday.

 

[Elios83]

Aahaha I can't even finish to write that I read this:

http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/s...rice_Drop_Profile_1.2_Players_On_the_Way/1140

http://www.twice.com/index.asp?layout=article&articleid=CA6496408&desc=topstory

That was some of the news to come out of a twice-a-year media roundtable hosted by Sony this morning with Stan Glasgow, president of Sony Electronics, and Jay Vandenbree, president of the Sony Electronics Consumer Sales Company, held at the Sony building, here.


Sony Electronics’ Jay Vandenbree (left) and Stan Glasgow at this morning’s media roundtable in New York.

When asked about Blu-ray player pricing from Sony for the holiday season, Glasgow said it should be “in the $399 range ... I don’t expect it to go much lower than that.”

When asked where the industry is in the format battle between Blu-ray and HD DVD, he noted, “It continues. I still find it curious that there are 170 companies backing [Blu-ray] and two companies behind [HD DVD]. I find some abnormality in that. Hopefully when all the [movie] titles reach the market this season and the beginning of 2008, [consumers] will see the [difference] in performance.”

Concerning talk from this week’s Blu-ray meeting in Los Angeles where Panasonic debuted a 1.1 player, the specification mandated by the Blu-ray Disc Association, Glasgow also said that Sony plans its own for next year with “possibly 1.2” features.

He added, “1.1 is a set of features. Step-by-step we will be adding features and have to work with the studios” which can add plenty of features to a disc. Glasgow added that certain existing Blu-ray decks could be “upgraded with firmware” via the Net to have some 1.1 features.

 

[thaivo]

:lol

Well you never know. The Wii and A2 are my favorite toys right now, and I kind of associate them in my mind because of they are both competitors to Sony.

 

[OokieSpookie]

BTW I hope that the BDA won't be so arrogant to think that they can overcome a 300$ difference in standalone players because they have the PS3 and they have outsold HD-DVD for all the year. If they are smart they should have a 299$ BD player in time for Black Friday.

They have been dealing with a nice sized price difference all along.
They will not need a $299 player this year.
People that will stand in line for hours for a $98 hd player are not the kind that will regularly spend $20-$30 on movies. ( At least for the most part)

 

[FIREBABY]

Oh come on man, try harder. We have been hearing this exact same lame argument all year, guess what, Heavenly Sword came out, Ratchet is out, Uncharted is next and there hasnt been any sign of people not buying blu-rays for games. I know its a difficult concept, but yes people can buy games and movies at the same time!

I think I said "heavy hitters". I'm not trying to say people wont' buy both games and movies. Its just that there really hasn't been much to play this year. So why not buy alot of movies. NPD for games definetly showed that not many PS3 owners are buying alot of games. So what are they spending money on? Blu Ray movies instead. Hince why I said next year is a different story.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Thats not entirely true, there was a while there where planet earth BD outsold its HD conterpart.

Sure, during PS3 sales spikes, but that's not a good way to measure the different demographics for the two platforms. Comparing first week sales, and total sales to date, are the best indicators. The HD-DVD crowd is older, plain and simple, and they have different tastes. Witness 2001, it sold the same on both platform. If Transformers were multiplatform, it wouldn't be an even split like that, it would be 60+% BD sales.

They have been dealing with a nice sized price difference all along.
They will not need a $299 player this year.
People that will stand in line for hours for a $98 hd player are not the kind that will regularly spend $20-$30 on movies. ( At least for the most part)

I bought my DVD player in 1997 for $330 (and it was a hell of a deal at that price). I then proceeded to buy > 100 DVDs a year.

If anybody had sold a DVD player for $100 in 1997, you bet your ass I would have waited in line a couple hours to get one. And I would have bought just as many discs.

FYI I waited in line for 20 minutes this morning and got my A2.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Snah, you're stacking assumption upon assumption. I don't think that reaches the conslusion you want.

Wal*Mart may well be taking a loss-- after all, it's only one day, and it got people lining up in stores.

Also, even if Toshiba is footing the bill, why not?

The only thing that matters is the effect in the long term. If this evens out software sales, or gets HD-VD the lead, it's have been worth every penny.

Also, some people are saying this is risky because if it fails, HD-DVD has nothing left. Seems like a non-comment to me-- that's been true almost all year, and it's been the strategy that's been trumpted by the viral blogs as well. The price-cutting didn't come out of nowhwere. Of *course* if it doesn't work HD-DVD will be in trouble. But without it, that trouble would be a foregone conclusion. It's like saying that the Allies D-Day plans were risky. Yes, but with great reward if they succeed, and dead in teh water if not even attempted. He who dares, wins.

But enough of that. I sincerely hope this sales rally fizzles so we can have one format, stat-- or is so blinding successful that the studios start making HD-DVD discs by Q2. Anything else sucks.

 

[thaivo]

They have been dealing with a nice sized price difference all along.
They will not need a $299 player this year.
People that will stand in line for hours for a $98 hd player are not the kind that will regularly spend $20-$30 on movies. ( At least for the most part)

It's true that there has always been a price differnetial, however I think they do have to do something about the price differential, because HD DVD players are no longer 299, they are now 199 and 99! The situation from the past to now is not completely analogeous.

 

[VanMardigan]

Who cares about who is taking a loss here? Well, given that I've heard people suggest that Walmart is the one taking the bulk of the loss here as some sort of indication of wal mart's preferential acceptance of HD-DVD over Blu-Ray, I think we need to establish that this is NOT the case.

Ok, I agree that we should end this FUD.

Here's a quote from Toshiba:

Toshiba says the rash of recent price cuts for its HD-A2 Player (which recently hit sub-$200 price levels at several top retailers) were retail-driven.

"There was no official move on our MSRP, but I’m happy to see the strong sales momentum on our players," Sally told HMM. "We experienced a great lift in player sales when 'Transformers' was released, and the strong momentum continues."

Now, let me see your evidence, with links, that refutes this claim.

 

[Snah]

I think I said "heavy hitters". I'm not trying to say people wont' buy both games and movies. Its just that there really hasn't been much to play this year. So why not buy alot of movies. NPD for games definetly showed that not many PS3 owners are buying alot of games. So what are they spending money on? Blu Ray movies instead. Hince why I said next year is a different story.

it doesn't matter what releases. my movie buying habits are completely independent, and not affected in the slightest, by my videogame purchases.

I just picked up Ratchet and Clank and will pick up Uncharted, all the while buying Spiderman and soon Ratatouille.

 

[avaya]

It’s amusing to think that some people believe Walmart is subsidising HD-DVD and would go exclusive with Toshiba and therefore alienate 2of the 3 biggest CE firms in the world in Matsushita and Sony whose products generate more business for them.

Walmart got to where they were today through business strategies that involved no razors. I bet they take no loss on these players.

 

[kaching]

kaching, did you try "HD DVD Player manufacturing costs" and "Blu Ray Player manufacturing costs?

Better question, did you? Do I specifically have you use Yahoo or MSN Search? Because all I see in the top results from Google for those searches is one explicit reference to player manufacturing costs, but it's in an unsubstantiated "my take" section of a blog. The rest of the results I see are mostly referring to retail cost or disc manufacturing cost.

 

[dynamitejim]

I think I said "heavy hitters". I'm not trying to say people wont' buy both games and movies. Its just that there really hasn't been much to play this year. So why not buy alot of movies. NPD for games definetly showed that not many PS3 owners are buying alot of games. So what are they spending money on? Blu Ray movies instead. Hince why I said next year is a different story.

Wasn't there a recent thread that showed the attach rate for the PS3 is higher than the Wii? As the various online stores (PSN, VC, XBLA) become bigger, NPD won't be telling the whole story either about how many games the average console owner actually has.

 

[Snah]

Ok, I agree that we should end this FUD.

Here's a quote from Toshiba:


Now, let me see your evidence, with links, that refutes this claim.

Okay so I guess retailers across the country including Wal Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, et. al. are all taking these huge loses voluntarily.

'Retailer driven'. Can they explain exactly what this means, please? It could be just spin by Toshiba, which wouldn't be unexpected, in order to push the idea that there's a huge push by retailers to adopt HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

Give me an independent source, and I'll be more receptive over intentionally vague terminology.

 

[VanMardigan]

Okay so I guess retailers across the country including Wal Mart, Best Buy, Circuit City, et. al. are all taking these huge loses voluntarily.

'Retailer driven'. Can they explain exactly what this means, please? It could be just spin by Toshiba, which wouldn't be unexpected, in order to push the idea that there's a huge push by retailers to adopt HD-DVD over Blu-Ray.

Give me an independent source, and I'll be more receptive over intentionally vague terminology.

SO YOU HAVE NOTHING TO BACK UP YOUR CLAIM?? ABSOLUTELY NOTHING??

It's what I thought, just wanted to make sure everyone realized that, and now they do. Trust me, I'm not wasting any more time on your posts. But I wanted to give you the benefit of the doubt before I disregarded your future posts. You've done nothing but hem and haw without any data, any links.............jack squat.