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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.
- Thread starter HyperionX
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VanMardigan said:
No. I don't have anything to back up my claim other than to mention that this player dropped in price SIGNIFICANTLY recently, and that's with HD-DVD ALREADY taking losses on their cheaper units.
Now, it wouldn't make sense for Wal Mart, Best Buy, and Circuit City to absorb hundred dollar losses on these units, so it only makes sense that Toshiba is the one behind the recent price drops as they're trying to clear out inventory.
You have one statement by TOSHIBA itself, that uses intentionally vague terminology that we can't even properly infer anything from.
Sorry, but I don't have any DETAILS regarding the recent price drop as they haven't been DISCLOSED, and there aren't any real figures out there regarding player prices. I can assure you, however, they're taking a loss at $99.
user friendly
Member
thaivo said:
$99 for a day, you're acting like it's the new price point. Is it?
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Snah said:
Nothing. You have nothing. Everything after that is just you hemming and hawing without evidence, without data, without links. It's one thing if you EXPLICITLY pointed out that it was nothing but crap speculation out of your rectum, but you continually phrase it as fact, use it to convey some sort of authoritative knowledge, when the truth is (as you admitted) YOU DON"T KNOW SQUAT.
VanMardigan said:
Right. Nothing!
Just like you! Nothing!
We can only use common sense. Mine is backed by common sense. Yours? Not so much.
Wal Mart, Best Buy, and Circuit City are all absorbing hundred dollar + losses on players because they prefer HD-DVD to Blu-Ray! That's it, right?
Toshiba had nothing to do with these recent drops, they've even admitted as such! They're "retailer driven" -- their statements? Right? Just like how Sony dropped rumble from SixAxis because it's last gen tech and would interfere with motion controls. :lol
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
OokieSpookie said:
Lets give your avg consumer a little bit of credit not too much though. I think or at least I would hope that they inherently know they need to buy HD DVDs to get the benefit from their brand new A2's. Otherwise why would they spend $98 on a player when they can get a dvd player for $30.
S
Shepherd
Unconfirmed Member
Just ordered the A3 from Best Buy for $199. Comes packed with '300' and 'The Bourne Identity'. Also got to pick 2 other HD-DVDs for Free. Got 'Transformers' and 'Serenity'. So I got the A3 and 4 movies for $199 and I still get to pick 5 free movies from the mail in deal. Going to go pick up all this in about an hour.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Snah said:Right. Nothing!
Just like you! Nothing!
We can only use common sense. Mine is backed by common sense. Yours? Not so much.
Mine is backed by an ACTUAL statement from one of the parties involved. The fact that you CHOOSE to dismiss it doesn't give your arguments BASED ON NOTHING any more credibility.
VanMardigan said:
Do I have to point this out for you?
1. The statement was vague and nothing can be inferred from it.
2. The statement is from a company ITSELF that has a conflict of interest in presenting accurate details rather than misleading misinterpretations.
3. Sony, and other companies, often say ridiculous things in order to make themselves look better and in a positive light. I suppose we should accept Sony's SixAxis 'excuse' just because it's official and from the source, right?
A game of thrones, a clash of kings, a storm of swords, a feast for crows. Dude give it up. You are starting to sound desperate. Go enjoy some movies will ya.Snah said:Right. Nothing!
Just like you! Nothing!
We can only use common sense. Mine is backed by common sense. Yours? Not so much.
Wal Mart, Best Buy, and Circuit City are all absorbing hundred dollar + losses on players because they prefer HD-DVD to Blu-Ray! That's it, right?
Toshiba had nothing to do with these recent drops, they've even admitted as such! They're "retailer driven" -- their statements? Right? Just like how they dropped rumble from SixAxis because it's last gen tech and would interfere with motion controls. :lol
Mr.Squirrel
Tom
FIREBABY said:A game of thrones, a clash of kings, a storm of swords, a feast for crows. Dude give it up. You are starting to sound desperate. Go enjoy some movies will ya.
actually retailers do that quite often. when i worked at target and wed have incredible deals on something (like $99 tosh) id ask the manager how wed make money selling for so cheap. she said we sell it for less just to get people in the store, with the assumption that theyd be other products that have a higher profit margin (soap, clothes, housewares, etc).
now if ppl go to walmart, buy the players then leave w/o anything else...mr. waltons gonna be pissed!
OokieSpookie
Banned
Days like these... said:
I agree with you.
I just think they will for the most part be the ones that hit the 14.99 sales and also make up a large part of the used movie and rental market.
For the most part picking and choosing, where as the ones who are true AV buffs on both sides are the kinds that pick up 2-3 movies a week and many more during sales periods.
For this gambit Toshiba is playing to work, they needs a good boost in week after week movie sales.
I could be off in my estimates, I openly admit it but I think I am close to the mark.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Van, while I think Snah has gone way too far in his conslusions, consider this;
1) Since states with anti-dumping laws aren't hosting the sale, we can assume a loss is involved
2) A whole mess of retailers have decided *on the same day* to sell the players as a loss-leader, *or* Toshiba has co-ordinated the whole thing.
Which is more likely? Add in that Toshiba (since it wasn't Miscrosoft) was willing to give up $150 Million to nab studio exclusives, demonstrating a willingness to spend to support the format.
I rather suspect that Toshiba is the one losing money here, not Wal*Mart. The other option is that retailers who have been decidedly neutral on formats suddenly want to take a loss to promote one of them over the other, when there is no material benefit of one over the other to them. And they picked the one that's been selling less.
Snah may be a bit out there, but I think he's dead-on here.
1) Since states with anti-dumping laws aren't hosting the sale, we can assume a loss is involved
2) A whole mess of retailers have decided *on the same day* to sell the players as a loss-leader, *or* Toshiba has co-ordinated the whole thing.
Which is more likely? Add in that Toshiba (since it wasn't Miscrosoft) was willing to give up $150 Million to nab studio exclusives, demonstrating a willingness to spend to support the format.
I rather suspect that Toshiba is the one losing money here, not Wal*Mart. The other option is that retailers who have been decidedly neutral on formats suddenly want to take a loss to promote one of them over the other, when there is no material benefit of one over the other to them. And they picked the one that's been selling less.
Snah may be a bit out there, but I think he's dead-on here.
OokieSpookie
Banned
bdizzle said:
The problem with sale gimmicks like this has already been touched on in this thread a page or two back and that is that it opens up to profiteers who picked up multiple units that will now be spread along Craigslist and Ebay and not in the hands of those who would benefit.
I am honestly shocked that they wouldn't limit them like they do on Black Friday
S
Shepherd
Unconfirmed Member
OokieSpookie said:
Well I just ordered the A3. I have been buying 5 or 6 DVDs a month for a long time. I will now be buying mostly HD-DVDs. I am sure that plenty of people like me took advantage of this great sale price. This will really help HD-DVD movie sales.
ConsumerSquare
Member
Posts like that is why nobody reads this stupid thread. Jesus christ almighty.OokieSpookie said:
THE:MILKMAN
Member
Ignatz Mouse said:
I agree after reading this article....http://blogs.zdnet.com/carroll/?p=1683 (from 25th april)
john carroll said:
Wow if true....
PS.....got this link from AVS forum.
Ignatz Mouse said:
It's true that who dares can hope in a bigger reward but at the same time this is going into an extreme situation. If they fail they are left without any arguments to convince people to not abandon them let alone convince others to support them, so it's interesting to note that what we're looking at during November and December is like the definitive battle.
I can't say for sure but maybe a less aggressive strategy could have left a last door open even in case of failure.
Days like these...
Have a Blessed Day
ConsumerSquare said:
That was really uncalled for I see nothing wrong with ookie's post He has a point the avg. consumer is not gonna pick up 2 or 3 $25-$30 titles every tuesday.
The Faceless Master
Member
wow, they just showed a walmart hddvd commercial during the soaps, with a wife talking about how she's buying one for her husband, and she couldn't believe how great it looked and how amazing the price was, even for walmart.
I'm backing Snah on this one. Too much assumption, little too much hyperbole, but the substance is spot on IMO.
This is Toshiba driven. Look how many stores are doing this. Of course Toshiba will call this 'retailer driven' to avoid looking like they are desparate. But retailer driven from all these different retailers, all in the same week, on the same unit? Come on Vanmardigan, you aren't that crazy as to be blind to what Toshiba are doing.
I just hope this is more than a 1 week blip in hardware sales for Toshiba. I can't see it sustaining long term big increases in software. While some AV enthusiasts will buy at that price, they would have also bought at $299. So IMO many purchases will be 'normal' people. And they will hesitate before buying large quantities of $30 movies.
I'm frankly astounded at just how much Toshiba are willing to stake on this. First Paramount, now this. Did they just have warehouses full of A2s that didn't sell as well as they expected? Or did they make them specifically for this?
Toshiba themselves are actually putting me off HDDVD. My interpretation of their actions recently is that they are desparate. And that doesn't give me a huge amount of confidence to invest in their technology.
This is Toshiba driven. Look how many stores are doing this. Of course Toshiba will call this 'retailer driven' to avoid looking like they are desparate. But retailer driven from all these different retailers, all in the same week, on the same unit? Come on Vanmardigan, you aren't that crazy as to be blind to what Toshiba are doing.
I just hope this is more than a 1 week blip in hardware sales for Toshiba. I can't see it sustaining long term big increases in software. While some AV enthusiasts will buy at that price, they would have also bought at $299. So IMO many purchases will be 'normal' people. And they will hesitate before buying large quantities of $30 movies.
I'm frankly astounded at just how much Toshiba are willing to stake on this. First Paramount, now this. Did they just have warehouses full of A2s that didn't sell as well as they expected? Or did they make them specifically for this?
Toshiba themselves are actually putting me off HDDVD. My interpretation of their actions recently is that they are desparate. And that doesn't give me a huge amount of confidence to invest in their technology.
Days like these... said:
I guess they'll get a big spike with the sale priced HDDVDs, presumably to take the wind out of spiderman sales. But bluray has a few sustained weeks of big exclusive releases, and I just can't see HDDVD ever getting the lead in any of those weeks, even with this sale.
Beer Monkey
Member
What is the current split between HD-DVD hardware units sold (including the 360 and PC drives) and BD hardware units sold (including PC drives and the PS3)?
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
THE:MILKMAN said:
I wonder what the ultimate source of that bit of info is.
Assuming a manufacturing cost of anywhere from $100 (unlikely) to $200 (maybe low, maybe high), that would amount to a loss for Toshiba of $100 M to $300 M. On top of the Paramount deal... wow.
Call me skeptical but not completely dismissive of that one. But almost.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
mrklaw said:
They did have an shareholder announcement or somesuch earlier this year that they were lowering expecations on HD-DVD player sales but a huge amount (44% I think). This stockpile may be a result of that.
Re: desperation: Perhaps. The way I see it for myself, I can wait it out for a quarter, and if Toshiba's desperation tactics actually win them a foothold (or better) I would go dual format (or switch). But the nature of the beast here is very short-term sustainable, so we'll know pretty soon if this works. I can wait for the dust to settle to buy anything, because the difference between a $99 deal and a regualrly-priced $300 means nothing compared to knowing if the format is going to stick around.
ConsumerSquare
Member
The average consumer is years away from jumping onto the HD bandwagon. The people lining up at Walmart at 7am to buy hi-def movie players at a ridiculously low price that only internet geeks knew about aren't representative of anything at all, really.Days like these... said:
Well, that's not true. They probably represent a pretty large middle ground of people who aren't willing to heavily invest in System Warz Lite: Are You H4rdc0r3 Enuff to Buy I Now Pronounce You Chuck & Larry, but still want HD media on their HDTVs. I don't know who's red or who's blue in this thread, but you all admit that this shitty format war is gimping the progression of home theater/entertainment, right? Well, I think the A2 sell-outs we're seeing today is a symptom of that.
Lots of people (like me), just want to move on beyond DVD, and we want to do it at the lowest investment:risk ratio as possible. Hell, I think HDDVD will ultimately be the format to die, but for the price of a good upscaling DVD player, I'm willing risk buying into a temporary format.
If it had been a bluray player for 99 bones, it would have been the same story. Heck, maybe we'll get lucky and see a $100 bluray player in a couple weeks. I'll buy one of those, too, and never look back.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
I don't mind who people believe. I actually have a quote to back up what I said. Let's look at the scenario:
It this was indeed clearance for the A2 model, its obvious retailers got a good price. $199 was the price everyone was talking about on every site. I believe that whatever the retailers paid for their units, the intent was to put it at that price. Toshiba is already taking a loss there. The drop to $99 was a promotional stunt by Wal Mart, then copied by the other retailers. Wal Mart was the only one who announced it well in advance, the others just popped in afterwards, which indicates to me that the drop was in fact retailer driven. So you have Toshiba taking an initial hit, with the retailers pushing it to $99 for promotiona/marketing purposes.
Every retailer that did the drop had a spike in store traffic. Furthermore, retailers that DON'T have a brick and mortar store, like Amazon, did not drop to $99, further reinforcing my thought that the $99 price was retailer driven, while the $199 price was Toshiba's doing.
As crazy as it may sound, it may be possible. For sure, it would be easier for a Blu Ray player to be converted than vice versa. Amir actually had a quote to that effect, basically stating that it wouldn't take much for all the CE's to move to HD DVD without much hassle. I'll see if I can dig it up.
They absolutely do. So does the 800lb gorilla in their corner.
It this was indeed clearance for the A2 model, its obvious retailers got a good price. $199 was the price everyone was talking about on every site. I believe that whatever the retailers paid for their units, the intent was to put it at that price. Toshiba is already taking a loss there. The drop to $99 was a promotional stunt by Wal Mart, then copied by the other retailers. Wal Mart was the only one who announced it well in advance, the others just popped in afterwards, which indicates to me that the drop was in fact retailer driven. So you have Toshiba taking an initial hit, with the retailers pushing it to $99 for promotiona/marketing purposes.
Every retailer that did the drop had a spike in store traffic. Furthermore, retailers that DON'T have a brick and mortar store, like Amazon, did not drop to $99, further reinforcing my thought that the $99 price was retailer driven, while the $199 price was Toshiba's doing.
As crazy as it may sound, it may be possible. For sure, it would be easier for a Blu Ray player to be converted than vice versa. Amir actually had a quote to that effect, basically stating that it wouldn't take much for all the CE's to move to HD DVD without much hassle. I'll see if I can dig it up.
They absolutely do. So does the 800lb gorilla in their corner.
Beer Monkey
Member
nubbe said:So much noice for something which lasted maybe 6 hours before stock ran out
The most important thing, IMO, is for Tosh to keep the price of entry much lower all season long, at all retailers, and keep it that way. They should get the A3 to $199 everywhere as long as BD and PS3 start at $399. If BD drops their entry to $299 (doesn't seem to be happening this year), Tosh should drop to $149. Keep the differential large, and promote the hell out of it. If they've got the cash to do it, they should not lose any ground from where they stand today, and will probably gain some.
mrklaw said:
No, you've sounded pretty much against the format for as long as I can remember.
I don't know if this move smacks so much of desperation, although that may be the situation. If one looks hard enough, one can find pieces of the puzzle that is now coming together as far back as last April (rumors of a Wal-Mart push with inexpensive players).
Perhaps it was Toshiba's plan all along to save their money and push big in Q4, the quarter when 80% of sales will happen?
I personally have been unsure if HDM is ready for prime time anyway. But if any time is ideal to build awareness and make an impact, it is the holiday buying season. And Toshiba's strategy has certainly raised awareness with the sonic boom of Wal-mart commercials, news stories, etc.
Toshiba just made HD DVD the Cabbage Patch Kid or Tickle Me Elmo of HDM, lol. (Not really. HD DVD is not rare like those, but it is definitely now a "hot item.")
I think this plan may have been Tosh's best and only way to counter the PS3 Effect. In this war, their best weapon is their standalone players. I can't think of a better way to make an impact than by blowing out the prices now, using the nation's biggest retailer. Certainly this is a much more potent and more effective plan than trying to drive prices down steadily throughout the year. Now, they have achieved their "BOOM."
Eel O'Brian
Member
jobber said:
Yeah, some people seem to think that the folks buying these cheap players aren't going to buy any movies to play on them.
Actually, I think that some people think that a lot of the people buying these cheap players are either bargain hunters who aren't going to spend $25-35 on releases regularly or are your typical Wal-Mart retards who will end up buying regular DVDs because they don't know any better. Not everyone, of course, but plenty of them.Eel O'Brian said:
OokieSpookie
Banned
Eel O'Brian said:
People seem to act like this is day one for the format.
From day one HD-DVD has been the cheaper alternative, it has always had a good difference of $200 or more from the closest BluRay player.
Yet BD wins WEEK after WEEK.
It has survived combo disks, it has survived "superior versions", it has survived Sony hate, it has survived studio defecting, it has survived the biggest release ever on HD, it has survived the Heroes +2 movies of your choice and not just survived it has led.
HD has had over a year of being the cheaper alternative and it has made no difference.
While I believe that this is the best move for Toshiba, and I believe it is good for consumers I do not think it will make a difference.
This thread deals with the influx of people who jump in every time there is some press for one side or another, people who come in and then leave when it does not go their way until the next big rumor.
When this doesn't give hd a winning week or two then what?
Eel O'Brian
Member
I see a lot of college chicks in the Wal-Mart near me, because it's so close to the university. They may very well be retarded by varying degrees, but they sure are hot.
And I think bargain hunters are probably already savvy to lower prices on Amazon, etc. No one has to spend $25-30 on a new release HD DVD or Blu Ray, if they know enough to shop around. I doubt the typical Wal-mart bunch even casts a glance at the HD DVD or Blu Ray rack as they pass.
And I think bargain hunters are probably already savvy to lower prices on Amazon, etc. No one has to spend $25-30 on a new release HD DVD or Blu Ray, if they know enough to shop around. I doubt the typical Wal-mart bunch even casts a glance at the HD DVD or Blu Ray rack as they pass.
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