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[thaivo]

71:29
Ytd 64:36
Si 61:39

1 Spider-Man 3 BD 100.00
2. Spider-Man: The High Definition Trilogy BD 71.95
3. Transformers HD 31.42
4. Meet the Robinsons BD 8.82
5. 300 BD 6.56
6. Fantastic Four: Rise of the Silver Surfer BD 5.03
7. License to Wed BD 4.24
8. The Shining BD 4.11
9. Mr. Brooks BD 4.03
10. 2001: A Space Odyssey BD 3.88

What do you think? Will SM3 have less staying power than Transformers because it isn't as liked by the general public... or will the PS3's massive userbase keep it hot during the holidays?

 

[plagiarize]

You disagree that vans head isnt up his ass? Thats fine.
And i dont understand what you have a problem with, you saying dont see from both sides exactly what you bolded?

look i'm not saying those aren't valid viewpoints... i'm just wondering why you thought it a good idea to put confrontational opinions like that in a post that starts out saying we shouldn't attack each other personally over this, and that acknowledges that you've gone too far in the past.

i don't think i've ever seen anyone with the mentality that both dying is better than one winning around here... but i don't read this thread as much as others even if i go through phases of posting in it quite a lot as i have done this week.

i don't agree with your mentality that someone neutral like myself is really a member of team HD... it's a bit 'you're either with us or against us!'. i want to see blu-ray succeed. i want to see HD-DVD succeed.

most people that want to see an end to the format war picked blu-ray (for whatever reason) and stuck with it. that's fair enough. i don't really care about the war though... outside of finding this thread an entertaining read at times.

 

[Arsenal]

It has been discussed and moved past.
It is not a surrender, it is not a show of weakness from Blu, it is nothing but a civil honest view of the format war.
Make sure you take a peek at this weeks numbers too...

Too much to keep track of!

 

[plagiarize]

What do you think? Will SM3 have less staying power than Transformers because it isn't as liked by the general public... or will the PS3's massive userbase keep it hot during the holidays?

well, holidays will ensure it has some legs. people picking up blu-ray players as gifts are likely to pick either the individual disc or the box set up on doing so. like most 'showpiece' discs, i expect sales to be strong until the next show piece disc comes out, and i expect the holiday season to exagerate it.

 

[thaivo]

I missed that. So I must be fool? Or did I choose to buy what the fuck I wanted? I think it might be the second. So basicaly this thread is PS3 owners vs. HD Dvd stand alone owners? And this thread is supposed to be better than AVS? Right?

Sorry for pulling your chain.... You obviously have enough money to have me taken care of... eek :lol

 

[captive]

look i'm not saying those aren't valid viewpoints... i'm just wondering why you thought it a good idea to put confrontational opinions like that in a post that starts out saying we shouldn't attack each other personally over this, and that acknowledges that you've gone too far in the past.

Because apparently thats all some people understand.

i don't agree with your mentality that someone neutral like myself is really a member of team HD... it's a bit 'you're either with us or against us!'. i want to see blu-ray succeed. i want to see HD-DVD succeed.

I never said that. All i was saying is that if someone wishes both formats die so 'their enemy' sony/microsoft/toshiba loses thats just sad. Theres less of them here than at AVS, but the point is valid.

 

[djkimothy]

Its also one of the saddest.

True.

 

[OokieSpookie]

What do you think? Will SM3 have less staying power than Transformers because it isn't as liked by the general public... or will the PS3's massive userbase keep it hot during the holidays?

I think it will have some legs but not as much.
Transformers got a huge boost from Best Buy and their any 2 and any 3 of your choice where Spidey has to deal with a)shitty movie b)40gb pack in

 

[OokieSpookie]

Not really sure how it can be the saddest.
All I can really say is spend a day on Highdefdigest.com forums or read back through the old avs threads and you will be blessing this thread.

 

[thaivo]

I think it will have some legs but not as much.
Transformers got a huge boost from Best Buy and their any 2 and any 3 of your choice where Spidey has to deal with a)shitty movie b)40gb pack in

Ah, I completely forgot that SM3 was packed in.. it sucks the only way to presently get SM1 & 2 is through the pack. Kind of how I wish I could purchase the first Matrix film.

 

[OokieSpookie]

Ah, I completely forgot that SM3 was packed in.. it sucks the only way to presently get SM1 & 2 is through the pack. Kind of how I wish I could purchase the first Matrix film.

Just get the trilogy and then sell Spidey three on ebay or craigslist or something

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I missed that. So I must be fool? Or did I choose to buy what the fuck I wanted? I think it might be the second. So basicaly this thread is PS3 owners vs. HD Dvd stand alone owners? And this thread is supposed to be better than AVS? Right?

Some HD-DVD owners can't conceive of anyone not interested in interactive features over just having HD movies as soon as possible.

Sorry if you took offense at my statement-- as I posted it, I thought it would be better to say that early BD adopters were people who valued immediate gratification over other concerns.

 

[Oni Jazar]

I think next week will be a bigger week for Blu-ray. No big HD DVD titles besides a bad comedy, no $99 secret friday sales, going against Spiderman & Pixar.

Now Shrek week will be interesting. Too bad Dreamworks didn't package the trillogy like Matrix and Spiderman.

Also for Shrek week is Warner's big Ocean release. Aside from HP, that is going to be a very closely monitored set of titles.

 

[kaching]

Those two sentences, when equated together either mean early BD adopters were absolute fools, or so rich that they can be foolish with their money.

So rich? A grand is what qualifies as "so rich"? What about the people who bought HD-DVD players last summer that could have had them for 80% less, matched with generous free movie bundles, just a little over a year later? A grand is "so rich" and "foolish" but $400 is chump change and wisely spent?

Early adopters are a special breed, full stop.

 

[thaivo]

Just get the trilogy and then sell Spidey three on ebay or craigslist or something

I watched the first 15 minutes of SM3 on my HD DVD player last night.

It was the SD version, but looked pretty good. I thought the special effects looked very, very fake though. There is something seriously wrong with the physics that they use in their computer generated models, because it just looks wrong... and the textures they use just seem not detailed enough or something, especially when Peter is fighting his pal at the begining.

This must be even more pronounced when watching in HD. The Sandman parts that I've seen are pretty good. If not non-sensical... all that technology to spin sand around.. lol.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

So rich? A grand is what qualifies as "so rich"? What about the people who bought HD-DVD players last summer that could have had them for 80% less, matched with generous free movie bundles, just a little over a year later? A grand is "so rich" and "foolish" but $400 is chump change and wisely spent?

Early adopters are a special breed, full stop.

"Immediate gratification over other concerns."

 

[djkimothy]

I think next week will be a bigger week for Blu-ray. No big HD DVD titles besides a bad comedy, no $99 secret friday sales, going against Spiderman & Pixar.

Now Shrek will be interesting. Too bad Dreamworks didn't package the trillogy like Matrix and Spiderman.

Next week will be god like.

FS showcased the Pixar Blu-ray releases like no other. Front and center with Blu-ray titles clearly marked. Same with best buy. Though this may be teh doing of Disney Marketing.

Speaking of marketing, there isn't a time I haven't seen the Cars re-release on Blu-ray TV spot. It's on all the time, even on the discovery channel.

 

[DoubleTap]

Thats exactly what I see in most threads concerning HDM. I own a stand alone Blu Ray player and 2 HD dvd players(thanks Walmart). And really, who cares who wins this HD battle? Whether its HD or Blu, they still have to top DVD. Which I might add, ain't going away no time soon. As far as we know both could turn into the next UMD. Hell, if they do die I still will have 3 very nice upconverting DVD players. People just calm down. Its alot of people getting all emotional over greedy ass companys who just want more of your money.

Pretty much how I'm looking at things currently which is exactly why I'm dual format. Even if one HD format "wins" I don't see a quick turnover from DVD. While I'm waiting, I don't see why I should deny myself the pleasure of being able to view all my movies in HD.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

This must be even more pronounced when watching in HD. The Sandman parts that I've seen are pretty good. If not non-sensical... all that technology to spin sand around.. lol.

I had no problems with it in HD. Textures looked fine. SM1 was pretty bad, but the other two were much better-- except for the last 20 minutes of SM3. That did not look that good, model-wise.

 

[SRG01]

Thats exactly what I see in most threads concerning HDM. I own a stand alone Blu Ray player and 2 HD dvd players(thanks Walmart). And really, who cares who wins this HD battle? Whether its HD or Blu, they still have to top DVD. Which I might add, ain't going away no time soon. As far as we know both could turn into the next UMD. Hell, if they do die I still will have 3 very nice upconverting DVD players. People just calm down. Its alot of people getting all emotional over greedy ass companys who just want more of your money.

All your points are wrong. There are several reasons why UMD never took off, namely:

a) You're paying more for a decrease in video quality.
b) Limited hardware base. PSP vs Blu-Ray/HD-DVD players.
c) Studios only picked up on UMD as a video content delivery system late in the game, versus BD/HD-DVD having studio support from the beginning.
d) Manufacturing costs.

 

[Oni Jazar]

Next week will be god like.

FS showcased the Pixar Blu-ray releases like no other. Front and center with Blu-ray titles clearly marked. Same with best buy. Though this may be teh doing of Disney Marketing.

Speaking of marketing, there isn't a time I haven't seen the Cars re-release on Blu-ray TV spot. It's on all the time, even on the discovery channel.

Interesting aside, I was at Best Buy earlier this week (wanted to try Rock Band 'natch) and saw Rat playing and there was an XBox 360 below. I looked behind it and sure enough it was the DVD version on the 360. Looked beautiful, I can't wait until I see it in Blu-ray.

 

[thaivo]

So rich? A grand is what qualifies as "so rich"? What about the people who bought HD-DVD players last summer that could have had them for 80% less, matched with generous free movie bundles, just a little over a year later? A grand is "so rich" and "foolish" but $400 is chump change and wisely spent?

Early adopters are a special breed, full stop.

I suppose all of us have a different impression of a lot of money. To me over a grand for something as disposable as a next gen media player is a lot of money. To those that can afford to not care that their purchase is not capable of playing all the content on their discs, all the power to them.

To me $400 is a too much money for a HDM player too. $1200 is obviously much more though.

 

[OokieSpookie]

I watched the first 15 minutes of SM3 on my HD DVD player last night.

It was the SD version, but looked pretty good. I thought the special effects looked very, very fake though. There is something seriously wrong with the physics that they use in their computer generated models, because it just looks wrong... and the textures they use just seem not detailed enough or something, especially when Peter is fighting his pal at the begining.

This must be even more pronounced when watching in HD. The Sandman parts that I've seen are pretty good. If not non-sensical... all that technology to spin sand around.. lol.

That is one problem that will actually get worse with HD tvs and players, especially if you have a 120hz capable tv and 1080p/24..
The difference between cg and live become more pronounced, at least in my opinion.
It is kind of like why WWE fought going HD for the longest time, and that is because in HD the illusion is harder to hide whether it is blading, or just punches and hits.

CG movies look amazing, but movies with heavy CG mixed with live action become different.

 

[djkimothy]

Interesting aside, I was at Best Buy earlier this week (wanted to try Rock Band 'natch) and saw Rat playing and there was an XBox 360 below. I looked behind it and sure enough it was the DVD version on the 360. Looked beautiful, I can't wait until I see it in Blu-ray.

Oh man, wait till you see it on blu-ray. At 1080i the picture was astounding. It is THE reference video to showcase HD video. Plus it's a decent movie people can get in to.

BB is doing it a disservice showing it in standard def.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I suppose all of us have a different impression of a lot of money. To me over a grand for something as disposable as a next gen media player is a lot of money. To those that can afford to not care that their purchase is not capable of playing all the extra fluff most of us ignore, all the power to them.

Fixed.

 

[OokieSpookie]

Pretty much how I'm looking at things currently which is exactly why I'm dual format. Even if one HD format "wins" I don't see a quick turnover from DVD. While I'm waiting, I don't see why I should deny myself the pleasure of being able to view all my movies in HD.

See that is where I differ in my belief.
I do not think you will ever see great numbers from a high def format until there is only one and only then can it close on dvd.
There are far too many people who refuse to get involved until there is a winner.

 

[thaivo]

Fixed.

:lol Thanks?

 

[plagiarize]

Pretty much how I'm looking at things currently which is exactly why I'm dual format. Even if one HD format "wins" I don't see a quick turnover from DVD. While I'm waiting, I don't see why I should deny myself the pleasure of being able to view all my movies in HD.

they don't have to top DVD. i mean that's the ideal situation as far as the backers go, but there's nothing wrong with there being a high end format and a low end format.

again as i always say, laserdisc was successful in a niche market even with the dominant VHS. laserdisc only went to the way side when something much better than it came along: DVD. it just so happened that it also appealed to the mainstream buyers who had been buying VHS as well as the people that had been buying laserdisc...

but we don't need to ever reach the day where blu-ray or hd-dvd is being sold in gas stations and super markets. why would that kind of 'i don't want the black bars' consumer pay more for improvements to things they don't care about?

obviously having three formats is more strain on the market than two, but i've never really got the mentallity that blu-ray or hd-dvd have to kill off dvd.

 

[maharg]

Some HD-DVD owners can't conceive of anyone not interested in interactive features over just having HD movies as soon as possible.

You know, I think you something a bit backwards. I don't often see an HD-DVD person say "everyone wants interactive content," but I think you could probably find a person per page in this thread saying, pretty much, "does anyone really want special features? I sure don't and don't see why anyone would."

they don't have to top DVD. i mean that's the ideal situation as far as the backers go, but there's nothing wrong with there being a high end format and a low end format.

again as i always say, laserdisc was successful in a niche market even with the dominant VHS. laserdisc only went to the way side when something much better than it came along: DVD. it just so happened that it also appealed to the mainstream buyers who had been buying VHS as well as the people that had been buying laserdisc...

but we don't need to ever reach the day where blu-ray or hd-dvd is being sold in gas stations and super markets. why would that kind of consumer pay more for improvements things they don't care about?

obviously having three formats is more strain on the market than two, but i've never really got the mentallity that blu-ray or hd-dvd have to kill off dvd.

I actually rather agree with you, but I think at this point HD-DVD has probably lost the high end prosumer. And I think Toshiba's actions have demonstrated this. I doubt we'll see 3 formats survive in the long run. I think the only really viable options at this point are probably HD-DVD + BR or DVD + BR.

 

[Oni Jazar]

JR.com is having a pretty big blu-ray sale:

http://www.jr.com/JRSectionView.process?Section_Path=/Promos/Movie03/

Sweet titles in there starting at $13.

 

[plagiarize]

JR.com is having a pretty big blu-ray sale:

http://www.jr.com/JRSectionView.process?Section_Path=/Promos/Movie03/

Sweet titles in there starting at $13.

oh silent hill...

why must your transfer be so shitty when you're such an eye candy movie?

seriously... any word on a better version ala Fifth Element down the line? i really want it... but i don't want a shitty transfer on a visual tour de force.

 

[distantmantra]

JR.com is having a pretty big blu-ray sale:

http://www.jr.com/JRSectionView.process?Section_Path=/Promos/Movie03/

Sweet titles in there starting at $13.

Holy crap! Tekkonkinkreet for $15.99! Rescue Me season 3 for $29.99! Volver for $15.99! Black Book for $15.99! Lives of Others for $15.99! Weeds season one for $15.99! Weeds season two for $19.99!

Too bad I already own them.

 

[thaivo]

I had no problems with it in HD. Textures looked fine. SM1 was pretty bad, but the other two were much better-- except for the last 20 minutes of SM3. That did not look that good, model-wise.

Do you recall the point where Peter get's attacked in the beginning and they're flying between buildings.. The computer generated characters just seemed so smooth to me, and lacked detail. So in HD, this isn't more pronounced?

That is one problem that will actually get worse with HD tvs and players, especially if you have a 120hz capable tv and 1080p/24..

CG movies look amazing, but movies with heavy CG mixed with live action become different.

Yep. I think this is one of the reasons the movies that have really impressed me have been older films that I've never seen in the theaters. The Shining really blew my socks off. This is also why I'm really looking forward to the Bourne Ultimatum as well, because the effects are mostly live action, with as little CG as possible.

Completely animated movies are always best. I'm tempted to buy Shrek 3, even though I hated the second film, and hear only bad things about the third. My wife liked Shrek 3, and it'll probably get some play during the holidays.

 

[Oni Jazar]

oh silent hill...

why must your transfer be so shitty when you're such an eye candy movie?

seriously... any word on a better version ala Fifth Element down the line? i really want it... but i don't want a shitty transfer on a visual tour de force.

Silent Hill was my first Blu-ray title that I purchased. I think that if you're interseted in the movie BUY IT. The video quality is good enough and the audio quality is superb. Amazing cinamatography.

Holy crap! Tekkonkinkreet for $15.99! Rescue Me season 3 for $29.99! Volver for $15.99! Black Book for $15.99! Lives of Others for $15.99! Weeds season one for $15.99! Weeds season two for $19.99!

Too bad I already own them.

Sweet deals, don't forget to look at all four tabs kids!

 

[plagiarize]

Silent Hill was my first Blu-ray title that I purchased. I think that if you're interseted in the movie BUY IT. The video quality is good enough and the audio quality is superb. Amazing cinamatography.



Sweet deals, don't forget to look at all four tabs kids!

wait... now i'm left wondering where the hell i got the idea the video quality wasn't good from.

 

[distantmantra]

Sweet deals, don't forget to look at all four tabs kids!

Not a damn thing I want or don't already own. Except for Cruel Intentions, but I put that on my list of possible options for my Secret Santa.

 

[Cosmic Bus]

seriously... any word on a better version ala Fifth Element down the line? i really want it... but i don't want a shitty transfer on a visual tour de force.

The HD-DVD version is much nicer.

 

[Battlezone]

That is one problem that will actually get worse with HD tvs and players, especially if you have a 120hz capable tv and 1080p/24..
The difference between cg and live become more pronounced, at least in my opinion.
It is kind of like why WWE fought going HD for the longest time, and that is because in HD the illusion is harder to hide whether it is blading, or just punches and hits.

CG movies look amazing, but movies with heavy CG mixed with live action become different.

Has WWE started broadcasting in HD yet?

I saw one of those 120hz TVs at Best Buy, and didn't like the look of it at ALL. I watched a clip of Pirates and Pearl Harbor, and while I can't quite explain it, it just looked off, like I was watching videotape, or something. Maybe it's some uncanny valley-type stuff, but I became more aware of how fake everything looked rather than enjoying the picture itself.

 

[Oni Jazar]

wait... now i'm left wondering where the hell i got the idea the video quality wasn't good from.

It was one of the first run Sony titles that got a bad rap due in large part to Fifth Element. It's not perfect but I wouldn't call it 'bad' by any means. The biggest issue I have is that there are no extra features at all, just the film. I do like extras on movies that I buy.

Check the Highdefdigest review (4/5 PQ, 4.5/5 AQ):

http://bluray.highdefdigest.com/silenthill.html

 

[Alcibiades]

Despite HD DVD"s getting pummeled with Spidey 3 this week, they have to be happy Transformers sold another 30,000+

I'm surprised at the staying power it has had, but I guess it helps being the biggest title released on the format so far...

 

[plagiarize]

It was one of the first run Sony titles that got a bad rap due in large part to Fifth Element. It's not perfect but I wouldn't call it 'bad' by any means. The biggest issue I have is that there are no extra features at all, just the film. I do like extras on movies that I buy.

ah... it's all flooding back.

it's not the unrated version either is it?

tell you what, i'm totally netflixing this and making my mind up for myself. hopefully there'll be an unrated Blu-Ray with a swank transfer down the line.

 

[FnordChan]

What do you think? Will SM3 have less staying power than Transformers because it isn't as liked by the general public... or will the PS3's massive userbase keep it hot during the holidays?

I realize opinions of Spider-Man 3 are pretty mixed, but apparently the general public was perfectly happy with the film, as it's the highest grossing US film of 2007, while also racking up a couple hundred million more dollars than Transformers overseas. Meanwhile, as far as critical acclaim goes, per Rotten Tomatoes (for what it's worth) Spider-Man 3 at 62% beats out Transformers at 56%.

This isn't to say that Spider-Man 3 was radically different from Transformers in terms of either financial or critical success, but if you wanted to know which one the general public preferred, well, there you go.

Meanwhile, as far as box office success goes, it's a pretty even split between formats, with Blu-ray getting Spider-Man 3 and Pirates 3 in first and fourth place respectively, HD-DVD nabbing Shrek 3 and Transformers in the second and third place slots, and format neutral Harry Potter (yes, it's true, Harry has no preference either way) rounding out the top five, so it's not like each format has bigger guns than the other in terms of the popular titles being released. Of course, hardware numbers are an entirely different matter, so, yes, I think the PS3 will keep Spidey hot during the holidays, even considering the pack-in.

FnordChan

 

[djkimothy]

Despite HD DVD"s getting pummeled with Spidey 3 this week, they have to be happy Transformers sold another 30,000+

I'm surprised at the staying power it has had, but I guess it helps being the biggest title released on the format so far...

Well, Batman Begins was in the top 10 for the longest time, so I guess Transformers will now be the defacto standard.

 

[OokieSpookie]

Has WWE started broadcasting in HD yet?

I saw one of those 120hz TVs at Best Buy, and didn't like the look of it at ALL. I watched a clip of Pirates and Pearl Harbor, and while I can't quite explain it, it just looked off, like I was watching videotape, or something. Maybe it's some uncanny valley-type stuff, but I became more aware of how fake everything looked rather than enjoying the picture itself.

February is when they are switching to film in hd

 

[plagiarize]

Well, Batman Begins was in the top 10 for the longest time, so I guess Transformers will now be the defacto standard.

that's how it seems to work at this stage. take the big summer blockbuster with the best image quality and presume it'll have legs until the next one. people want a new, showy, film to show what their new player can do.

 

[thaivo]

I realize opinions of Spider-Man 3 are pretty mixed, but apparently the general public was perfectly happy with the film...

This isn't to say that Spider-Man 3 was radically different from Transformers in terms of either financial or critical success, but if you wanted to know which one the general public preferred, well, there you go.

FnordChan

Ah! Thanks for the research. Perhaps it is just the impression that I got from us Forum crazies. We're all sort of removed from the general public somewhat I guess.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

You know, I think you something a bit backwards. I don't often see an HD-DVD person say "everyone wants interactive content," but I think you could probably find a person per page in this thread saying, pretty much, "does anyone really want special features? I sure don't and don't see why anyone would."

Some HD-DVD owners can't conceive of anyone not interested in interactive features over just having HD movies as soon as possible.

I'm not one of the people saying nobody wants special features, bt when the issue came up of WB titles not being released due to Profile 1.1 not being ready, it was apparent that the many in the HD-DVD camp didn't beleive a lot of us would sacrifice the Java/HDi stuff to have the movies sooner.

 

[BotoxAgent]

I saw one of those 120hz TVs at Best Buy, and didn't like the look of it at ALL. I watched a clip of Pirates and Pearl Harbor, and while I can't quite explain it, it just looked off, like I was watching videotape, or something. Maybe it's some uncanny valley-type stuff, but I became more aware of how fake everything looked rather than enjoying the picture itself.

i agree with you there! It did have wow factor at first....but it all started to look like some shitty BBC drama. And it definitely had a fake, eerie quality to it. And all that post-process left some parts out of sync. I always prefer the look and feel of film.

 

[DJ_Tet]

Awesome sale, I just built my hd-dvd library and surprisingly enough a good number of these titles are still hd-dvd exclusive. Good deal, now hopefully I can get Best Buy to reprint my rebate receipt that I lost so I can still get my 5 free mail-in movies :/

I got:

Batman Begins
2001
The Shining
A Clockwork Orange
V for Vendetta
Dog Day Afternoon
The Deer Hunter
Casino
Fear and Loathing in Las Vegas
Goodfellas
Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind
The Last Samurai

Came out to $203 shipped, saved $50 and got 12 movies for less than $17 apiece. Not too shabby at all for HD media

 

[DoubleTap]

they don't have to top DVD. i mean that's the ideal situation as far as the backers go, but there's nothing wrong with there being a high end format and a low end format.

again as i always say, laserdisc was successful in a niche market even with the dominant VHS. laserdisc only went to the way side when something much better than it came along: DVD. it just so happened that it also appealed to the mainstream buyers who had been buying VHS as well as the people that had been buying laserdisc...

but we don't need to ever reach the day where blu-ray or hd-dvd is being sold in gas stations and super markets. why would that kind of 'i don't want the black bars' consumer pay more for improvements to things they don't care about?

obviously having three formats is more strain on the market than two, but i've never really got the mentallity that blu-ray or hd-dvd have to kill off dvd.

All valid and very realistic points especially the high end / low end market angle. But don't you think that's going to prolong the war simply because the high end market will stay niche - which is exactly where HD media is now?