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[VanMardigan]

Yes, they are selling now.
Whether you or other hd backers want to admit it or not doesn't matter.
Blu stand alones are moving decently without the need for clearance sales.

I'm sorry, but I have Panasonic at 20k for over a year of sales. Let me know what data you have besides the Sony standalone that sold quite a bit when it was released.

 

[Chiggs]

b-but its a Sony format!

MINIDISC! BETAMAX! UMD! HUUURRRRR! OH MAN I AM ON FIRE

 

[OokieSpookie]

Screwed them how? Panasonic sells 10k in a year??? You're acting as if Sony's decision to NOT provide a mass market price has somehow helped the others sell. They haven't.

The "mass market" price has not exactly done much for hd-dvd has it?
It has nothing to do with helping the others sell, it is about not forcing all of the others to have to drop the price until they were ready.
You can be damned sure that if sony put out a $150 stand alone that nobody would have even looked at one of the other players and would continue not looking at them even at the prices they are reaching now.
You think that hd-dvd is giving so many free movies away with the a-3 because they want to?
It is because after the crazy assed prices they hit nobody wants to buy them at normal price without huge incentive.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Van, you've overlooked my point about this being a multi-year thing.

Not to mention-- I'm sure Panasonic has mode more money than Toshiba has! :lol

 

[djkimothy]

Van, you've overlooked my point about this being a multi-year thing.

Not to mention-- I'm sure Panasonic has mode more money than Toshiba has! :lol

That's the sweet irony of it all. :lol

 

[avaya]

Matsushita's Blu-ray income structure:

1. Royalties
2. Panasonic Hollywood Labs AVC Encoding
3. MEI Disc Replication
4. High margin stand alone players.

Royalties simply dwarf everything else.

They have zero incentive to join HD-DVD since, I dunno, they were part of the Broadcast Empire (with Philips and Sony) that set the basis for Blu-ray even before the 2002 ratification amongst the first 8 maybe?

 

[VanMardigan]

Van, you've overlooked my point about this being a multi-year thing.

Not to mention-- I'm sure Panasonic has mode more money than Toshiba has! :lol

How does that matter when talking about now? In other words, it's ok that they're not selling now because they can sell later for cheap? So why not just ship HD DVD players as well, since you're not selling worth crap on Blu Ray? On both sides, there are hurdles (cheap toshiba players, and Ps3). I refuse to believe that Panny couldn't sell the equivalent amount of HD DVD players at their current price point, even WITH the Toshiba's out there.

And as for your second point, Toshiba is slashing the prices, as is Sony on their Ps3. We're discussing third party CE companies, which right now are slashing prices on Blu to try to garner sales. I'm sure that's somehow a better scenario in your mind.

avaya, fine, then tell me why, outside of the patent pool CE's, BD exclusivity is advantageous for CE's

 

[djkimothy]

If they can't get sustainable margins then I don't think any CE will partake in a market where the primary format holder is undercutting their product every few months.

OK, so I happen to have the OC on in the background, (i don't watch the show) and some girl asked some guy out to watch some movie with her and that she has a "flatscreen TV with Blu-ray."

Looks like BD has made the mainstream. :lol

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

How does that matter when talking about now? In other words, it's ok that they're not selling now because they can sell later for cheap? So why not just ship HD DVD players as well, since you're not selling worth crap on Blu Ray? On both sides, there are hurdles (cheap toshiba players, and Ps3). I refuse to believe that Panny couldn't sell the equivalent amount of HD DVD players at their current price point, even WITH the Toshiba's out there.

And as for your second point, Toshiba is slashing the prices, as is Sony on their Ps3. We're discussing third party CE companies, which right now are slashing prices on Blu to try to garner sales. I'm sure that's somehow a better scenario in your mind.

The second thing was just a jab at Toshiba.

As far as the first one... they can sell later for "cheaper, but not so cheap that we can't make money on them." We haven't seen what price it will take to expand the Blu-ray sales market, but they've been doing OK taken as a whole considering the cost differential, PS#,and confusion in the market. Presumable, Panasonic could have cut their costs to just-under PS3 prices and sold a lot more-- and they don't seem to be interested in selling more units at less margin right now. More likely, they're vetting out their engineering and tetsing the market while they offset their R&D costs. And all of this is besides the money they'll make on the IP.

Again, you're trying to make the two situations out to be equivilent when they aren't. HD-DVD is basically at commodity margins already, Blu-ray players are not, and have some selling room to get there before they are.

 

[OokieSpookie]

How does that matter when talking about now? In other words, it's ok that they're not selling now because they can sell later for cheap? So why not just ship HD DVD players as well, since you're not selling worth crap on Blu Ray? On both sides, there are hurdles (cheap toshiba players, and Ps3). I refuse to believe that Panny couldn't sell the equivalent amount of HD DVD players at their current price point, even WITH the Toshiba's out there.

And as for your second point, Toshiba is slashing the prices, as is Sony on their Ps3. We're discussing third party CE companies, which right now are slashing prices on Blu to try to garner sales. I'm sure that's somehow a better scenario in your mind.

avaya, fine, then tell me why, outside of the patent pool CE's, BD exclusivity is advantageous for CE's

Because for every one stand alone blu player they do sell, they would most likely have to sell 5 stand alone hd players at "mass market prices" thanks to Toshiba to get the same profit...
And you are seriously not trying to compare Toshiba's slashing with the PS3s price drops with a straight face are you?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Let's turn this around...

If it makes sense for Panasonic and others to support HD-DVD, why haven't they?

I mean, we're arguning whys and shoulds, but the market is doing what the market is doing. Panasonic must know something you don't, Van.

 

[avaya]

avaya, fine, then tell me why, outside of the patent pool CE's, BD exclusivity is advantageous for CE's

Ignoring the patent pool is hard to do....the whole war exists because of the patent pool and standards war.

OK for a CE you have the HD optical value chain. This is not just a ROM business.

In Japan Panasonic holds an iron grip over the biggest STB market there, disc-based PVR. Blu-ray as a rewritable format is not contested because Blu-ray was initially a personal data format and satisfies the two key criteria: Storage and bandwidth. For a CE this means you have saleable re-writers and disc-based camcorders as examples.

This is all compounded by the fact that Blu-ray has yet to be commoditised. Commoditisation is the reason you have CE companies pushing every display technology under the sun. The pressure from the Chinese over the last 10yrs means they need a new high margin technology to capitalise on. There are certain technologies in a Blu-ray drive that have yet to be commoditised, like the OPU assembly. Matsushita makes these and sells them to other CEs.

However in the end it all comes down to the patent pool.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Look at what I got!

And look for how much!

The best part was that it had a $119.99 price tag on it, but I walked out with it for $49.99. Bestbuy.com pricing errors can be a real help sometimes.

 

[Ryu1999]

Look at what I got!

And look for how much!

The best part was that it had a $119.99 price tag on it, but I walked out with it for $49.99. Bestbuy.com pricing errors can be a real help sometimes.

How did that work? It's listed at 64.99 on Bestbuy.com. Do they do 110% pricematch against their own prices or something? 0_0

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Well, it was listed lower earlier when I placed my order. I don't know how long it was that way, but I guess I hit the magic window. In store pricing is WAY HIGHER. It's crazy.

 

[BenjaminBirdie]

Well, it was listed lower earlier when I placed my order. I don't know how long it was that way, but I guess I hit the magic window. In store pricing is WAY HIGHER. It's crazy.

Worthless without detailed episode by episode impressions.

Let's go, people.

;D

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Worthless without detailed episode by episode impressions.

Let's go, people.

;D

I'm back at work right now or else I'd be pumping out the info. Sorry...

 

[Costanza]

Worthless without detailed episode by episode impressions.

Let's go, people.

;D

I just watched the first episode.. looks fucking fantastic.

 

[VanMardigan]

Let's turn this around...

If it makes sense for Panasonic and others to support HD-DVD, why haven't they?

I mean, we're arguning whys and shoulds, but the market is doing what the market is doing. Panasonic must know something you don't, Van.

Panasonic/Matsushita I doubt since they're ingrained in Blu Ray, but Samsung and LG are already doing combos, and I expect more CE's will jump in, with at least combo devices, by next year. That is, of course, assuming that both formats are still viable next year.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

They're not exactly chomping at the bit to make plain old HD-DVD players, are they?

 

[Jeff-DSA]

They're not exactly chomping at the bit to make plain old HD-DVD players, are they?

Would you want to be jumping in with Toshiba already offering such cheap players (at good quality)?

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Exactly.

 

[captive]

Would you want to be jumping in with Toshiba already offering such cheap players (at good quality)?

Sigh... thats the entire point people were/are making the whole time.

 

[Jeff-DSA]

Hey man, I come and go, so I miss out on the random bursts of fighting and point making.

I'm mostly here just to celebrate the releases.

 

[dallow_bg]

I picked this up.. If you want to know IMHO the most exceptional thing about this transfer, surprisingly it's the amount of grain present and how it translates on screen. Yes it's nice in movies like Casablanca to go back and clean up the film. I mean it's one of the most important films in cinema history, it should be preserved for generations to come. But in some cases, and arguably Casablanca is still an example of such a case, it would be nice to see the movie how IT WAS FIRST PRESENTED back in it's original release. We can restore these movies all the way up to Snow White, where the movie was virtually repainted from scratch for its HD transfer. And again, the preserve the movie for future generations this is a good thing. But for film buffs.. I mean I would have loved to see 20MMtE in the theater back in the 50's, but considering I never had a chance this is the closest I will ever come. When you pick up Casablanca on HD-DVD, do you think that's what it was like to sit in a movie house back in 1942 with 1000 other people and see it on the big screen? Heck no.. that print is cleaned up well beyond what any positive print was capable of back then.

So in this respect.. the HD transfer of 20MMtE is outstanding. Preserving the grain while still giving us a pretty robust picture without the use of much edge enhancement for a movie of that age.

I also have to say that the colorization process is leaps and bounds beyond what we were exposed to. And before you cry foul about original integrity, there are a number of interviews with Ray Harryhausen on the disc talking about the fact that it was shot in B&W solely for budgetary reasons. He would have shot all three of his B&W films in color had he been approved the budget for it. His words exactly, bringing these films to color IS bringing it closest to his artistic intent. And as I said, the colorization process is really outstanding. The number of scenes that turned out rough can probably be counted on one hand, and mostly involve a very subdued colorization due to the complexity of the scene (like smoke and fog, stuff like that). Overall though it does bring you into the movie more, at the expense of eliminating just a tiny bit of that camp and cheese associated with viewing old monster movies in B&W.

What a great reply!
Thanks so much for the insight.
I just got it myself, can't wait to watch!

 

[XMonkey]

Van keeps mentioning how Panasonic only sold 20k players or so, and how that's a terrible amount. Does he not realize that Panasonic has likely made money on every single one? Can the same be said for Toshiba and the fire sales on their players?

 

[VanMardigan]

Van keeps mentioning how Panasonic only sold 20k players or so, and how that's a terrible amount. Does he not realize that Panasonic has likely made money on every single one? Can the same be said for Toshiba and the fire sales on their players?

See, the point wasn't to compare the sales to Toshiba (which dwarf every other SA maker), but to point out that the sales are so low that the whole excuse of "toshiba won't allow them to sell units" is moot considering that the Ps3 has had the same effect on the BD side. I seriously doubt that Panny couldn't have sold 20k HD DVD players at $499 over the span of a year and a half. I bet you the XA2, which was priced (and mostly still is) at that range has sold at least 3 times that.

 

[djkimothy]

See, the point wasn't to compare the sales to Toshiba (which dwarf every other SA maker), but to point out that the sales are so low that the whole excuse of "toshiba won't allow them to sell units" is moot considering that the Ps3 has had the same effect on the BD side. I seriously doubt that Panny couldn't have sold 20k HD DVD players at $499 over the span of a year and a half. I bet you the XA2, which was priced (and mostly still is) at that range has sold at least 3 times that.

The PS3 has little effect on price since it's 400 at its cheapest. The HDDVD players from Toshiba are what, 200 at its cheapest. What market would you rather be in in order to MAKE MONEY.

 

[OokieSpookie]

The PS3 has little effect on price since it's 400 at its cheapest. The HDDVD players from Toshiba are what, 200 at its cheapest. What market would you rather be in in order to MAKE MONEY.

Not to mention the BDA has a strong advertising presence on a regular basis which benefits all of the manufacturers involved.

 

[VanMardigan]

The PS3 has little effect on price since it's 400 at its cheapest. The HDDVD players from Toshiba are what, 200 at its cheapest. What market would you rather be in in order to MAKE MONEY.

Well, we KNOW that the BD standalone market is a wasteland right now outside of Sony. We DON'T KNOW what the sales would be like if those same CE's put out HD DVD decks, but if you're suggesting that they couldn't at least rival the pathetic BD standalone numbers, I'll have to disagree.

As far as making money, you're suggesting that the decks won't sell for more than $200, but I pointed out that Toshiba has an expensive deck offering as well. Of course, they won't sell 80k in three days like the $99 ones would, but I don't think they'll fare much worse than the Panny, Samsung, and Sharp decks right now. You got any press release touting their sales?

Not to mention the BDA has a strong advertising presence on a regular basis which benefits all of the manufacturers involved.

You can put out vague and pointless remarks like that all day long (whilst ignoring that the CE companies pool for that extra advertising), yet how has that translated into sales? You have numbers for me to show how that has benefitted them? Anything?

 

[XMonkey]

See, the point wasn't to compare the sales to Toshiba (which dwarf every other SA maker), but to point out that the sales are so low that the whole excuse of "toshiba won't allow them to sell units" is moot considering that the Ps3 has had the same effect on the BD side. I seriously doubt that Panny couldn't have sold 20k HD DVD players at $499 over the span of a year and a half. I bet you the XA2, which was priced (and mostly still is) at that range has sold at least 3 times that.

I don't think Panasonic (or any other CE for that matter) wants to be in a market where Toshiba is selling players below costs so they can keep HD-DVD afloat. This is precisely the reason why we haven't seen standalones from them.

Panasonic and others are perfectly happy making money while Sony takes losses with the PS3 (and more because its a video game system and that's how it goes) to keep Bluray going. No doubt Panasonic and others have lowered their manufacturing costs and paid down R&D by now to the point where they can now begin to offer more mass market prices soon. When your format is winning 2:1 for basically the entire year, why not keep prices at a point where you're making money?

 

[OokieSpookie]

Well, we KNOW that the BD standalone market is a wasteland right now outside of Sony. We DON'T KNOW what the sales would be like if those same CE's put out HD DVD decks, but if you're suggesting that they couldn't at least rival the pathetic BD standalone numbers, I'll have to disagree.

As far as making money, you're suggesting that the decks won't sell for more than $200, but I pointed out that Toshiba has an expensive deck offering as well. Of course, they won't sell 80k in tree days like the $99 ones would, but I don't think they'll fare much worse than the Panny, Samsung, and Sharp decks right now. You got any press release touting their sales?



You can put out vague and pointless remarks like that all (whilst ignoring that the CE companies pool for that extra advertising), yet how has that translated into sales? You have numbers for me to show how that has benefitted them? Anything?

I ignore nothing at all, I said the BDA ( would would be the CE companies involved ) have a stronger advertising presence. So I think what I said was pretty fucking spot on.
You know, I have to confess I am pretty fucking tired of going round and round and playing the weekly game of "Van the armchair expert who seems to just want to argue for the sake of arguing these days" lately and am pretty much leaving it with the fact that you can wait and see where the blu stand alone numbers are at the end of the year and also the weekly software sales numbers make a pretty fucking clear idea of the effect they also have.

 

[OokieSpookie]

I don't think Panasonic (or any other CE for that matter) wants to be in a market where Toshiba is selling players below costs so they can keep HD-DVD afloat. This is precisely the reason why we haven't seen standalones from them.

Panasonic and others are perfectly happy making money while Sony takes losses with the PS3 (and more because its a video game system and that's how it goes) to keep Bluray going. No doubt Panasonic and others have lowered their manufacturing costs and paid down R&D by now to the point where they can now begin to offer more mass market prices soon. When your format is winning 2:1 for basically the entire year, why not keep prices at a point where you're making money?

Exactly, ALL bda stand alone companies make profit for each unit sold.
The pace with which they are lowering the price keeps them making a profit on each unit sold while still giving the public the lower prices that they want ( and more so the lower stand alone prices that the studios no doubt have worked toward )

 

[VanMardigan]

As usual, you resort to f bombs instead of shutting up or making a legitimate point. If you realized that the CE companies were pooling for advertising, why would you assume they wouldn't do the same if they were producing HD DVD decks?

I'm done on this end, though. I've been saying for a long time that CE companies would be better served with at least combo decks. If the current BD standalone fire sale (how much more are those decks discounted than the $299 MSRP HD A3's?) somehow spurs sales of non 1.1 compliant decks, fine. Of course, it would have taken the same radical price slashing that Toshiba did (but without the vested interest Toshiba has in its format), but I'm sure that's going to be glossed over.

Panasonic and others are perfectly happy making money while Sony takes losses with the PS3 (and more because its a video game system and that's how it goes) to keep Bluray going.

One more thing: That statement above is hypocritical considering they could be "making money" selling 20k HD DVD decks in a year and a half (at the same price point they're at)while Toshiba takes a loss to keep HD DVD going. Unless, of course, you think they couldn't sell whatever paltry amount on HD DVD. Again, I don't think that's the case.

 

[OokieSpookie]

For the record 76/24

 

[avaya]

For the record 76/24

Was that with Bourne?

 

[user friendly]

Was that with Bourne?

Nope

HD DVD
* Arctic Tale (Paramount)
* Battlestar Galactica: Season One (Universal)
* Queen Rock Montreal & Live Aid (Eagle Rock)

BD
* 20 Million Miles to Earth (Sony)
* Cast Away (Fox)
* Elton 60 - Live at Madison Square Garden (Universal Music)
* Masters of Horror: Season One - Vol. Four (Starz)
* Mr. & Mrs. Smith (Fox)
* Pirates of the Caribbean: At World's End (Buena Vista)
* Queen Rock Montreal & Live Aid (Eagle Rock)
* Superbad (Sony)

It is his (Dave Vaughn) prediction but it sounds like he is just saying it is and it's probably the actual numbers.

 

[captive]

I ignore nothing at all, I said the BDA ( would would be the CE companies involved ) have a stronger advertising presence. So I think what I said was pretty fucking spot on.
You know, I have to confess I am pretty fucking tired of going round and round and playing the weekly game of "Van the armchair expert who seems to just want to argue for the sake of arguing these days" lately and am pretty much leaving it with the fact that you can wait and see where the blu stand alone numbers are at the end of the year and also the weekly software sales numbers make a pretty fucking clear idea of the effect they also have.

:lol

this is what i got tired of, and he cant even read what i say!

 

[VanMardigan]

I'm expecting AWE to be the top seller by a large margin.

 

[avaya]

Nope




It is his (Dave Vaughn) prediction but it sounds like he is just saying it is and it's probably the actual numbers.

Ahh ok. Thanks.

 

[OokieSpookie]

As usual, you resort to f bombs instead of shutting up or making a legitimate point. If you realized that the CE companies were pooling for advertising, why would you assume they wouldn't do the same if they were producing HD DVD decks?

I'm done on this end, though. I've been saying for a long time that CE companies would be better served with at least combo decks. If the current BD standalone fire sale (how much more are those decks discounted than the $299 MSRP HD A3's?) somehow spurs sales of non 1.1 compliant decks, fine. Of course, it would have taken the same radical price slashing that Toshiba did (but without the vested interest Toshiba has in its format), but I'm sure that's going to be glossed over.

NOBODY with any money involved wants a dual format future, not the studios and not the manufacturers.
That is why they do not go running through the tulips to make dual format players and that is why you have not seen a large push for them and that is why most manufacturers have chosen their side.
There are some, there will be some because people do have libraries they will not want to throw away but the bottom line is for the media to have a future it is ONE format as many have said from day one.
As far as the advertising question "wouldn't they do the same if they were HD?" , that is not a given at all.
Most of the ads actually come from the studio side with Disney and Sony pushing hardest (at least by perception of course).

 

[OokieSpookie]

Ahh ok. Thanks.

Yeah Vaugn's "prediction" is his way of saying "I am cool I have the numbers ha ha" but the bottom line is that he does have them.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

How in the HELL does Planet Earth outsell Transformers on HD DVD? Me thinks there's a boatload of illiterate Moms and Pops buying the HD version thinking "Nature will look HD" on our 27 inch tv.

 

[Cold-Steel]

Planet Earth appeals to everyone.

Transformers does not.

Simple.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

Planet Earth appeals to everyone.

Transformers does not.

Simple.

Not quite simple since Planet Earth costs nearly 4 times that of Transformers. I have Planet Earth on Blu-ray. It was not an easy decision to pick it up due to the price.

 

[Tedesco!]

How in the HELL does Planet Earth outsell Transformers on HD DVD? Me thinks there's a boatload of illiterate Moms and Pops buying the HD version thinking "Nature will look HD" on our 27 inch tv.

One word: Oprah

 

[Manmademan]

One word: Oprah

Obama 2008 confirmed then...:lol

HD-DVD needs to get Bill Clinton to Endorse something, quick

 

[Tedesco!]

My wife was watching an Oprah episode where she gave everyone in the audience a copy. I bet she could sell a million copies of Day of the Dead 2: Contagium if she gave it her seal of approval.

 

[djkimothy]

What did Oprah do?

 

[OokieSpookie]

What did Oprah do?

Gave away the dvd version of planet earth one day.
That day it blew up