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[borghe]

I would still rather see it end through combo players. I admit I've kind of been in denial about what it means if one truly "wins out". Yeah, I'll have a couple dozen HD-DVDs that I would need to rebuy on BRD or else maintain two players to watch. At least if we see a heavy push towards combo players as the standard player next week (much like +/- recorders), even if HD-DVD does die sooner or later my collection will still be fine on then standard combo players.

 

[Snah]

Having it end through combo players is probably one of the worst situations possible, and it's not even entirely realistic.

 

[VanMardigan]

And consumers are confused about this situation. One lady I saw in a store was picking up tons of 'HD movies for her Blu-Ray player' and her cart was full of red titles, and she kindly asked me whether or not they'd play on her new Blu-Ray player. Stuff like that is frequent.

The true victims of the format war: Ladies who know enough about high definition discs to buy a Blu Ray player for at least $300-$400, but don't know what type of movies to feed the player she just paid hundreds of dollars to get.

On the off-chance that you just ran into Bill Hunt's grandmother, send in your letter to Digital Bits so we can get another editorial.

 

[borghe]

Having it end through combo players is probably one of the worst situations possible, and it's not even entirely realistic.

I disagree. As I pointed out earlier, the technology in the players is mostly redundant especially at the hardware level, and it would mean less skus on the floor to manufacture, ship, and stock. combining the technology at the CE level would accomplish EVERYTHING people are wanting to happen at the software level. The only groups that wouldn't benefit from it are the HD-DVD or BRD groups hoping to sway studios and consumers by making it into an actual war such as they have. But retailers, manufacturers, and consumers would all win out, and in the end so would the studios through less confusion and more sales. Personally I couldn't give a rats ass about the actual consortiums..

The ONLY problem that exists now is: What format do I buy into and which one has the movies I want. This forced decision causes people to hold out to see which one "wins". Combo players would eliminate that problem entirely and people would feel comfortable knowing that they can buy red or blue and it will work on their player. Any other problem that exists does so solely at the level of the shill or fanboy.

 

[VanMardigan]

I wonder if LG and Samsung are being artificially made to keep their prices high by Sony and Toshiba (through exorbitant fees) or if they're just greedy. There's really no real reason why those combo players should be $800 and above.

 

[Walshicus]

Having it end through combo players is probably one of the worst situations possible, and it's not even entirely realistic.

You are seven shades of batshit insane if you think that's the worst ending possible...

 

[BoboBrazil]

Well normal consumers are clueless about high definition as a whole. I'd say 50% of people still think when you buy a hdtv everything is automatically hd. The ones that do actually buy a high def player are greeted by red white and yellow cables in the box, which means of the people buying hd players, probably another 50% of those are watching blurays or hd-dvds in 480i...

 

[Snah]

You are seven shades of batshit insane if you think that's the worst ending possible...

It is. Alienating the largest HD audience (PS3 and Blu-Ray player owners), for a format that is already rendered moot by the capabilities of Blu-Ray in terms of technical specifications and the market penetration of blu-ray IS a poor, and rather stupid, decision.

The war is going to be over before combo players even become financially viable.

And I didn't say it was the worst possible ending, just one of the worst. I can imagine a worse scenario than that, however ridiculous it is at this point given the market momentum.

 

[kaching]

borghe, the dual-format player future still doesn't play well to this crowd. They want a knockout of one or the other contender. Just wait until after Warner does whatever they're going to do and it doesn't alter the landscape of deadlock much. A few more months should provide a larger choir to preach to.

 

[borghe]

It is. Alienating the largest HD audience (PS3 and Blu-Ray player owners), for a format that is already rendered moot by the capabilities of Blu-Ray in terms of technical specifications IS a poor, and rather stupid, decision.

insisting that combo players would alienate anyone but the hardest core or fanboys is just silly. the only thing an early adopter is good for is to drive the initial price of the hardware down and recoup some money back on development. It's the mass market that brings in the profits and I promise you the mass market (rightfully) doesn't give a flying fuck is the case is blue or red (as evidenced by all of the women out there picking up the wrong format of movies, on which Van hit the nail right on the head )

borghe, the dual-format player future still doesn't play well to this crowd. They want a knockout of one or the other contender. Just wait until after Warner does whatever they're going to do and it doesn't alter the landscape of deadlock much. A few more months should provide a larger choir to preach to.

yeah, I'm finally starting to see that. I just want HD movies.. it seems most of the folks in this thread are more interested in wanting their non-preferred format to die a quick death than they are in actually enjoying HD movies.

oh well.

 

[polyh3dron]

I wonder if LG and Samsung are being artificially made to keep their prices high by Sony and Toshiba (through exorbitant fees) or if they're just greedy. There's really no real reason why those combo players should be $800 and above.

License fees to both the BDA and Toshiba for their respective formats mean double the licensing cost, maybe even more.

 

[borghe]

License fees to both the BDA and Toshiba for their respective formats mean double the licensing cost, maybe even more.

but there is no way the fees are to the tune of hundreds of dollars per player. a $300 samsung bdp is probably only comprised of like $20-50 in licensing fees. Double that and you are talking $40-100 tops.

 

[The Bookerman]

Ok WTF?!!!

Did anybody find Shoot 'em Up on Bluray in Quebec(or Canada for that matter) cause the darn thing can't be found anywhere.

I did like 4 or 5 stores today.


WTH.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I'd be all for dominant dual-format players if I thought they could get cheap and good enough, fast enough. Given the problems that have existed with the single-mode players, I don't see chaep dual-format players in 2008, and I do want the war to be over by then.

I know we disagree on this, Borghe, but I don't think getting the two technologies into the same box is as cheap and easy as you think.

 

[VanMardigan]

License fees to both the BDA and Toshiba for their respective formats mean double the licensing cost, maybe even more.

I'm guessing there's an artificial reason and that the licensing costs are more than double. Because I can get a fully licensed BD standalone and a fully licensed HD DVD standalone for hundreds less than the cost of these players, and with the comparable features as well (in terms of the audio/PQ/interactivity components).

I know we disagree on this, Borghe, but I don't think getting the two technologies into the same box is as cheap and easy as you think.

Once you have a BD player, you have most of what is necessary for an HD DVD player, minus
-the licensing fees
-mandatory ethernet,
and persistent storage.

Add software to that (Samsung chose NOT to license HDi, which to me is a mistake). I'm not sure that's $500 worth of stuff right there.

also the lack of competition in the combo player field and seemingly limited production of these players

Going back to my original question about this, that would be the "greed" part of the equation. So I guess the best answer to my question is that there are artificial and greed reasons why these players cost so much.

 

[polyh3dron]

but there is no way the fees are to the tune of hundreds of dollars per player. a $300 samsung bdp is probably only comprised of like $20-50 in licensing fees. Double that and you are talking $40-100 tops.

OK then you need the chipsets necessary for both formats, and there's also the lack of competition in the combo player field and seemingly limited production of these players.

 

[mollipen]

Having it end through combo players is probably one of the worst situations possible, and it's not even entirely realistic.

There's no point in trying. Having it end in a tie - combo players ruling and both formats surviving - is an absolutely ridiculous "end" to the war, and will create a market of confusion and annoyance for consumers, studios, and retailers alike.

Some people around here, though, just don't get this, no matter how many times it's been argued.

 

[Oni Jazar]

I disagree. As I pointed out earlier, the technology in the players is mostly redundant especially at the hardware level, and it would mean less skus on the floor to manufacture, ship, and stock. combining the technology at the CE level would accomplish EVERYTHING people are wanting to happen at the software level. The only groups that wouldn't benefit from it are the HD-DVD or BRD groups hoping to sway studios and consumers by making it into an actual war such as they have. But retailers, manufacturers, and consumers would all win out, and in the end so would the studios through less confusion and more sales. Personally I couldn't give a rats ass about the actual consortiums..

The ONLY problem that exists now is: What format do I buy into and which one has the movies I want. This forced decision causes people to hold out to see which one "wins". Combo players would eliminate that problem entirely and people would feel comfortable knowing that they can buy red or blue and it will work on their player. Any other problem that exists does so solely at the level of the shill or fanboy.

I disagree with your disagreement.

I'll say it again, a dual format solution is a bad thing for all parties involved. There would NOT be any less SKUs to manufacture ship and stock, we already have at least one player from each large CE company and dual format players will create MORE. The CE companies that want to go dual format will not only have to buy almost twice as many royalties for the specs that the player uses but it will waste HUGE amount of time in player testing and support. Hardware wise, the tech is mostly the same, but the software side is a nightmare. Even with one format all CE players have gone through a very large number of firmware updates.

The movie studios will have to pay different manufacturing plants to process the different formats (if they are neutral), encodes will be limited to the lowest common denominator, twice as many programmers to develop the title content, and expenses will be paid to advertise both products.

Retailers will need to devote twice the amount of space for the same number of titles. Seperating the HD DVD section from the Blu-ray section. Unlike DVD+R DVD-R, where you can just have a stack of blank media for each, every single HD movie titles can have a blue box or a red box and must be accounted for individually. Products would be twice as hard to predict on profitable success as you will run out of the HD DVD discs of a certain title but have too much Blu-ray or vice versa.

Consumers will be left with the ruins of an abandoned war, paying a high premium to purchase a player that has redudant technology (expensive due to the high costs the CE companeis have to pay as explained above) for discs that look the same, sound the same and have the same features, but have different boxes, styles, and possibly prices (depending on the triple layer or combo situation). Sure maybe within a year dual format will become more affordable in the $500 range, but it is STILL a shortsided solution when you consider that people have more then one television in their home and on the go. So you need to buy the more expensive dual format players multiple times to enjoy the movies you own when you want. (Oh and I hope your friends have the same dual format players in case you want to bring a movie over!)

 

[Whipped Spartan]

I think analysts predicating a move to combo players over the next couple years are correct. Manufactures can't be happy with Blu Ray Player sales. At least with HD DVD it's just Toshiba selling them so they sold a decent amount but with BRD none of the manufactures can' t be selling a lot of units if total sales of stand alones are like 500k to 700K.

 

[captive]

The hypocrisy displayed in this thread knows no bounds. I cant believe I used to argue with some of you people.

 

[Snah]

I think analysts predicating a move to combo players over the next couple years are correct. Manufactures can't be happy with Blu Ray Player sales. At least with HD DVD it's just Toshiba selling them so they sold a decent amount but with BRD none of the manufactures can' t be selling a lot of units if total sales of stand alones are like 500k to 700K.

Huh? Last I checked, manufacturers were making a profit on Blu-Ray player sales. For them it's margin, not volume. HD-DVD has had numerous discounted sales that have cost Toshiba a lot of money in an attempt to prop up HD-DVD.

 

[Chiggs]

Manufactures can't be happy with Blu Ray Player sales. At least with HD DVD it's just Toshiba selling them so they sold a decent amount but with BRD none of the manufactures can' t be selling a lot of units if total sales of stand alones are like 500k to 700K.

I think manufacturers will feel just about Blu-ray player sales now that there are some affordable options, other than just the PS3. Give it a few months.

And I do believe that number is higher now. After all, we just got done with the holiday season.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The hypocrisy displayed in this thread knows no bounds. I cant believe I used to argue with some of you people.

Yeah, we were due for another "holier than thou" post as well as a generalization that slams some random large set of people but doesn't require the poster to backit up. Thanks for hitting both quotas with your post!

 

[Cheebs]

People were talking about the implications of the hd war in the box office thread due to these results so I thought I would mention them here:

Fox was down 28%
Sony was down 27%
Disney was down 9%

All the other studios saw increases though

WB was up 34%
Universal was up 38%
And Paramount was up a massive 55%

Paramount was the #1 studio of the year and is forecasted to be the #1 in 2008 as well thanks to Indiana Jones which is widely expected to the biggest film domestically and world wide and be the first film since 2006's Pirates 2 to cross the 1 billion mark worldwide.

The implications being that ALL the blu-ray studio's under-performed this year. And the HD-DVD ones and the neutral WB improved.

 

[kaching]

There's no point in trying. Having it end in a tie - combo players ruling and both formats surviving - is an absolutely ridiculous "end" to the war, and will create a market of confusion and annoyance for consumers, studios, and retailers alike.

Some people around here, though, just don't get this, no matter how many times it's been argued.

I'm not sure I see the confusion for anyone in being able to say that buying one device will allow one to play any red disc, blue disc, standard dvd, and cd in the store. It's certainly less confusing than the throes of one format dying where retailers might be advising consumers just to buy the one winning format, but will still have stock of the losing format to sell through, including movies not yet available on the winning format. So there'd still be months of consumer and retailer confusion in the eventuality of one format winning over the other.

The movie studios will have to pay different manufacturing plants to process the different formats (if they are neutral), encodes will be limited to the lowest common denominator, twice as many programmers to develop the title content, and expenses will be paid to advertise both products.

Retailers will need to devote twice the amount of space for the same number of titles. Seperating the HD DVD section from the Blu-ray section. Unlike DVD+R DVD-R, where you can just have a stack of blank media for each, every single HD movie titles can have a blue box or a red box and must be accounted for individually. Products would be twice as hard to predict on profitable success as you will run out of the HD DVD discs of a certain title but have too much Blu-ray or vice versa.

In the scenario of an ongoing stalemate of the formats, I think the retailers and studios would gain plenty of leverage to push back on the manufacturers and patent holders to provide solutions that reduce these issues, if they want to see the formats continue to get any shelf space or studio attention. First, allow more leeway in the packaging, so it need not be as distinct between the formats. Second, allow retail to integrate the stock of the two formats so it's not a matter of red vs. blue on opposing racks, but just an alphabetical listing of all HD movies available.

 

[Snah]

People were talking about the implications of the hd war in the box office thread due to these results so I thought I would mention them here:


Paramount was the #1 studio of the year and is forecasted to be the #1 in 2008 as well thanks to Indiana Jones which is widely expected to the biggest film domestically and world wide and be the first film since 2006's Pirates 2 to cross the 1 billion mark worldwide.

The implications being that ALL the blu-ray studio's under-performed this year. And the HD-DVD ones and the neutral WB improved.

Paramount hit it big with Transformers this year, luckily Indiana Jones IS coming to Blu-Ray, since Spielberg -- not the studio -- dictates where his movies end up.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

I think analysts predicating a move to combo players over the next couple years are correct. Manufactures can't be happy with Blu Ray Player sales. At least with HD DVD it's just Toshiba selling them so they sold a decent amount but with BRD none of the manufactures can' t be selling a lot of units if total sales of stand alones are like 500k to 700K.

I don't see manufacturers rushing in to make HD-DVD players when they know they'll have to compete with Toshiba-manufactured players that are sold at loss-leader prices. Sure, they don't sell many BRD players, but at least they don't lose money on every one they do sell.

Combo players have a very limited demographic of buyers at this point. They just cost too much.

 

[Cheebs]

Paramount hit it big with Transformers this year, luckily Indiana Jones IS coming to Blu-Ray, since Spielberg -- not the studio -- dictates where his movies end up.

It wont come to Blu-ray OR HD-DVD. George Lucas has gone on record that no Lucasfilm movie will go to HD till the war is over. And he owns the films, not Spielberg. Spielberg does his movies through his studios Amblin' and Dreamworks. Except for Indiana Jones which is through Lucasfilm.

 

[Snah]

It wont come to Blu-ray OR HD-DVD. George Lucas has gone on record that no Lucasfilm movie will go to HD till the war is over. And he owns the films, not Spielberg. Spielberg does his movies through his studios Amblin' and Dreamworks. Except for Indiana Jones which is through Lucasfilm.

I can assure you that it WILL be coming likely to both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Lucas made that statement about his catalog titles, but not new releases.

You may not see Indiana Jones 1-3 (I hope this happens), but you definitely will see Kingom of the Crystal Skull in HD next year.

 

[borghe]

I'm not going to do the annoying "15 million broken quotes" thing so I'll just cover the big things. First, if a company has, say, one combo player or two different format standalones, I fail to see how it would be more difficult to QA the two standalones vs. the single combo player.

On that note, why do people insist that CE manufacturers would produce both standalones and combo players? Is there a single PC peripheral manufacturer that produces a + or - only burner?

The movie studios won't have to do a single thing. They can remain as format dedicated as they want, being that both formats will play (ideally) on the majority of players. At that point, with a majority of combo players being sold, universal format support would be unnecessary and warner could pick a side without there really being any consequences from it.

The ONLY downside to a combo format is, as you have pointed out, costs. But let's look at the REAL costs.

Dolby is selling a single solution to both companies. TrueHD as a decoder is all the way backwards compatible (even though the encode is not).

DTS-HD MA is backwards compatible both as a decoder technology AND as an encoded technology. Again, a single decoding solution that is the same on both formats.

PCM is PCM and both formats support multichannel PCM over HDMI.

Both technologies use a blue laser of similar wavelengths. number of layers is determined solely by the focus of the laser.

Both technologies require MPEG4 AVC and VC-1 support.

The ONLY difference between the two is at the application level. So worst case scenario is that you would need an embedded solution that could handle both file formats and application runtimes.

Given all of the above, I am failing to see the HUGE cost differences compared to standalones. Most of the above stuff is at the hardware level and identical between the two formats. the application level stuff is the only major difference, and I fail to see how that raises the price of the player significantly (aka 200-400%) above the cost of a regular player.

As for hypocrisy, I'm not going to get into name calling or accusations, but I do find it funny that the folks here who have taken their sides in the war effectively want "every disc to work on every player" in the case of one side winning, as it will be less confusing and easier to understand by the customer, yet presenting a "every disc working on every player" solution of combo formats will be confusing and mind boggling to the consumer. You can't have your cake and eat it to. I thought the entire point was to have it so it didn't matter what disc or what player you bought. In theory, if 99% of the players on the market were combo players, that's exactly what would happen. Saying anything else is just the ultimate in fanboy message board debate.

 

[gkryhewy]

It is. Alienating the largest HD audience (PS3 and Blu-Ray player owners)

:lol :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol

Sorry, Hans, but the largest HD audience is just fine with HD cable/satellite and DVD right now.

Or did I miss an attach rate greater than 2% between HDTV owners and PS3 owners? 1% maybe? Maybe I'm being generous.

I can assure you that it WILL be coming likely to both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

The only dates so far are a day-and-date DVD and HD DVD release in Europe, if that means anything:

Here is a tidbit from a magazine called release.no, in which they have an article about Paramount Home Entertainment.

The original text:

"I 2008 vil de lage hele 21 nye spillefilmer.
Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull er hovedfilmen. Den får premiere over hele verden 22. mai, og blir lansert i november på DVD og HD DVD."'

Roughly translated to englishmanspeak

"In 2008 they are producing a total of 21 movies. Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Crystal Skull is the main attraction. It will premiere worldwide on May 22nd, and release in November on DVD and HD-DVD".

I contacted the magazine to check if this were a comment by the norwegian Paramount representative or their own. According to the editor, it was the words from the Paramount rep himself.

The same person was quoted earlier this year (same magazine) stating that The Godfather trilogy and Indiana Jones I-III would find it's way to HD-DVD in 2008.

There's something not right about all this. We either have a Paramount rep in Norway who knows more than his superiors in the US or a Paramount rep with little knowledge of the current HD marked and news.

Wasn't it so that the statement from Paramount said that Spielberg titles were NOT a part of the HD-DVD exclusitivity contract? This doesn't mean it should'nt get released, of course. But im also thinking...Indy is the property of George Lucas AND they are directed by Spielberg. Am i the only thinking that these movies (Indy) will not see the light of day on any HD format until Lucas and Spielberg says so?

 

[Cheebs]

I can assure you that it WILL be coming likely to both HD-DVD and Blu-Ray.

Lucas made that statement about his catalog titles, but not new releases.

You may not see Indiana Jones 1-3 (I hope this happens), but you definitely will see Kingom of the Crystal Skull in HD next year.

Lucas is pretty anti-HD war that is quite a prediction you are making. Remember how long it took him to release new releases on DVD? He has said he predicts both wont catch on. He has final say if KotCS is released on HD and unless he changes his mind don't expect it.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Borghe, as I said, I agree with everything you're saying except that dual-format players at low prices are an easy thing to do. And frankly, if I'm wrong about that, and the rest comes to pass, I'll be happy. My Blu discs will work and I won't need to wait for movies currently in HD-DVD format to be re-released. It's a fairly ideal solution that hinges only on the affordable dual-format players. But consider that the dual-format players aren't making the dramatic drops in price tha the single-format players are, and that they still cost >2x the single-format players-- I can't see that heppnening before the war is over by other means.

For pete's sake, if the war *is* still in stalemate when these players get affordable*, I certainly want the rest of it to come true.


* Say, $300, which I would guess will take until Summer of '09.

 

[Snah]

Lucas is pretty anti-HD war that is quite a prediction you are making. Remember how long it took him to release new releases on DVD? He has said he predicts both wont catch on. He has final say if KotCS is released on HD and unless he changes his mind don't expect it.

according to AICN:

"I then asked when the INDIANA JONES set would hit and if it would be exclusive to HD. Rob responded that on the films that Steven directs, he wants the titles to be available in both formats - so those will be cross-platform titles."

 

[captive]

Yeah, we were due for another "holier than thou" post as well as a generalization that slams some random large set of people but doesn't require the poster to backit up. Thanks for hitting both quotas with your post!

Oh please. I stopped caring after i was banned for an entire month for calling someone a tool, who cant even read my posts unless someone quotes me i might add. While you rattled off a list of multiple people and called them all a-holes and didnt even get a day ban.

And it has nothing to do with holier than though, but my month off i still read the thread, unable to post and realized it doesnt mean anything. Its the same shit every day, someone posts something from digital bits and sure enough there goes someone "oh its from the bits, its wrong/biased/completly right/bill hunt is on the level of rob enderle.
Someone posts the newest article from wherever, or the newest rumor and that gets argued about, sources discredited faster than most can even read the article or rumor, no one changing their mind. People on both sides claiming that the other side is the side that wants a one format future if only its their side, while maintaining their all about the movies.

One poster contiunally accusing others of FUD while dabbling in FUD himself and then the accusees try and defend themselves from the accusation of FUD. Until someone finally steps over the moving target of a line and gets banned.

So please if you think im holier than thou go right ahead i dont care, but some of you may want to look in the mirror and or take a step back and look at this thread as well.

I'll be in the actual HD movie thread, because astonishingly the THIRD time it was created the mods finally let it be.

 

[Cheebs]

according to AICN:

"I then asked when the INDIANA JONES set would hit and if it would be exclusive to HD. Rob responded that on the films that Steven directs, he wants the titles to be available in both formats - so those will be cross-platform titles."

He WANTS them on other formats. He has the say in Dreamworks/Amblin films cause he owns those studios. But Lucasfilm movies are owned by one man. George Lucas.

George Lucas owns Indiana Jones, not Spielberg.

 

[Snah]

He WANTS them on other formats. He has the say in Dreamworks/Amblin films cause he owns those studios. But Lucasfilm movies are owned by one man. George Lucas.

Ok, so Lucas isn't going to let Spielberg release the films on Blu-ray.

Thanks for your proof!

FWIW, I seriously doubt KotCS doesn't get released on HD-DVD/Blu-Ray. Lucas, again, may be sitting out catalog releases but he's not going to block the new movie from hitting HD.

 

[Cheebs]

Ok, so Lucas isn't going to let Spielberg release the films on Blu-ray.

Thanks for your proof!

Why would he? Lucas whenever asked about the HD format war he always predicts both will die off in the end and he wont support anything till there is no more war.

 

[Snah]

Why would he? Lucas whenever asked about the HD format war he always predicts both will die off in the end and not succeed and he wont support anything till there is no more war.

He predicted the same thing with DVD.

Do you think Spielberg has no pull in this situation? Do you honestly think that?

 

[Cheebs]

He predicted the same thing with DVD.

Do you think Spielberg has no pull in this situation? Do you honestly think that?

And with DVD he refused to support it till 2001. FOUR years after the format launched.

Spielberg obviously has pull but when the fact the DVD's are produced by Lucasfilm, George Lucas's personally owned studio he gets final say. Spielberg can ask or beg him but if Lucas does not want to, thats it. Lucas is a firm believer the formats will not take off and thus not worth supporting, if the market place isn't drastically different in 2008 why would he change his mind?

 

[polyh3dron]

The arrangement Lucasfilm has with Paramount and the Indy films is not the same as the one Lucasfilm has with Fox and the Star Wars films.

 

[kaching]

* Say, $300, which I would guess will take until Summer of '09.

No way it'll take that long. $299 by November 2008.

 

[DarkJediKnight]

Spielberg can ask or beg him but if Lucas does not want to, thats it.

I think you're reaching here. Both Lucas and Spielberg are Billionaires. No one is going going to beg anyone. They're also best friends who know each other very well. They'll do what they feel necessary, and Paramount will do nothing to stop them. The fact that Spielberg was able to prevent Paramount from touching his movies for HD DVD shows just how much pull he has.

 

[nerbo]

Those are some very good points, and to put it into perspective I've been to a few Best Buy stores over the past month or so and nearly all of them seem to have Blu-Ray taking up three times the shelf space as HD-DVD.

More than that, Blu-Ray is also set up around the store's HDTV's far more than HD-DVD. There were a handful of Blu-Ray players setup and playing on HDTVs, but only one HD-DVD player.

And consumers are confused about this situation. One lady I saw in a store was picking up tons of 'HD movies for her Blu-Ray player' and her cart was full of red titles, and she kindly asked me whether or not they'd play on her new Blu-Ray player. Stuff like that is frequent.

In 2008, barring some monumental pay off ala Paramount, I think retailers and consumers will decide the war. Retailers will have to make a decision on which format is more profitable to their bottom line, and if HD-DVD is taking away from their potential in this regard, they will drop out. The retailer push for Blu-Ray at Best Buy and Frys is absolutely huge.

Really? Because at my local Best Buy, the BD section is 1/3 bigger than the HD DVD section, both are growing slowly and they have both a Toshiba and a Sony player set up right next to each other showing looped disc content respectively. I think you might just be talking out your ass.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

No way it'll take that long. $299 by November 2008.

Full-functioning dual players at $299 by November? Hope you're right, but sure you're wrong.

 

[MechDX]

http://news.ecoustics.com/bbs/messages/10381/425807.html

LG Electronics and Audio Legend Mr. Mark Levinson Unite
for a New Era of Music

New Generation LG Audio Challenges Industry at CES 2008

Seoul, Korea, December 27, 2007 – LG Electronics has announced a bold initiative to become a major player in the global audio market.

The Korean electronics giant will demonstrate two new home theater systems at the upcoming Consumer Electronics Show. Both systems were personally tuned by audio legend Mr. Mark Levinson, who has been working with LG for the past year.

Under his direction, the company's engineering team has developed a range of high-performance/high-value products that promise to send tremors through a complacent industry. "These systems are so good for so little money, it's shocking," Levinson confided. "Even the most jaded audio veterans are going to be completely knocked out."

The two new systems are the AP3133 and the LHT888. The AP3133 is a traditionally-styled high-definition AV home theater system with medium-height multi-driver floorstanding loudspeakers, center channel speaker, surrounds, and powered subwoofer. The system includes a 7.1-channel AV receiver with 150Watts X 7 "ICEpower" output stage, Burr-Brown PCM 1796 24bit/192kHz DAC, multi-input HDMI switching with full 1080p upscaling, HD Radio capability, and Audessey Auto Room Multi EQ Adjustment. The system also includes an LG Super Blu player, dual-format BD and HD DVD player.

For more décor-conscious movie-and-music fans, LG will demonstrate its LHT888 home theater system, a foray into stunning contemporary design. Inspired by the slim elegant form of the champagne glass, LHT888 loudspeakers feature multiple drivers in parabolic housings, each with a tapered integrated pedestal. The system includes a 700W 5.1-channel DVD receiver with full HD 1080p upscaling, USB Media Plus, HDMI output, LG SIMPLINK™ multi-device control (HDMI-CEC), and multi-format playback compatibility—DviX, MP3, JPEG, MPEG, etc.

The AP3133 and LHT888 are merely precursors for more ambitious LG products to come. These new home theater systems will ship at astonishingly affordable prices, permanently establishing LG as the audio leader.

Retail prices will be announced at CES.

LG will make a formal announcement at a press conference the first day of the show, on Jan. 6 at 8 a.m. in the Venetian's Casanova room 501. Demonstrations will take place all day from 9 a.m.-5 p.m. on the 6th, in the Venetian's San Polo room 3501B.

# # #
About LG Electronics, Inc.
LG Electronics, Inc. (KSE: 066570.KS) is a global leader and technology innovator in consumer electronics, home appliances and mobile communications, employing more than 82,000 people working in over 110 operations including 81 subsidiaries around the world. Comprising four business units -- Mobile Communications, Digital Appliance, Digital Display and Digital Media with 2006 global sales of US $38.5 billion -- LG Electronics is the world’s largest producer of CDMA handsets, air conditioners, optical storage products, and DVD players. For more information, please visit www.lge.com.

LG Electronics Digital Media Company (DMC) is a leading producer of DVD players and home theater systems. It has been the world’s best-selling optical storage maker for 9 consecutive years. The company provides digitally integrated products such as audio-video systems, car infotainment, optical storage products, notebook PCs, and PDAs, and is focusing on next-generation businesses.

 

[borghe]

Full-functioning dual players at $299 by November? Hope you're right, but sure you're wrong.

Yeah, I honestly have no clue. I am praying for some sort of bombshell next week. I would consider a bombshell a 1.1/HDi player for $499 by summer. If that happens, then holiday sales could take that down sub-$300.

And on a similar note, if nothing substantial is announced on the combo player front next week, I might as well go back after that point and just delete all of my posts from today. :\

That would be a shame to say the least.

 

[nerbo]

Full-functioning dual players at $299 by November? Hope you're right, but sure you're wrong.

I think it's possible, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to place a bet on it. I think sub-$299 hybrid players for Holiday '08 are likely to happen, if not cheaper, but it's that whole full-functioning part that makes me leery. That said, if something does hit the right price stripped of functionality but with enough that the consumers don't care or don't notice, it's all that matters.

HP just announced a Quad-core PC with a hybrid BD/HD DVD drive inside shipping in February and starting under a grand. Granted, this is a different market and that machine is likely stripped out in other ways that are not so practical, but it does lend some hope to the idea that hybrid drive pricing will drop quickly this year.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Yeah, I honestly have no clue. I am praying for some sort of bombshell next week. I would consider a bombshell a 1.1/HDi player for $499 by summer. If that happens, then holiday sales could take that down sub-$300.

And on a similar note, if nothing substantial is announced on the combo player front next week, I might as well go back after that point and just delete all of my posts from today. :\

That would be a shame to say the least.

If that happens, then there's hope for the dual-format-player future.

Really, my end goal is to have as many movies available to me as soon as possible and have them in a format that will become a standard format, if not replacing DVD. That can happen by a format-war knockout (I still think the most likely) or by the scenario you describe, and I don't care much which. The forst is marginally more conveneient to me because I have a Blu-Ray-only player already, but the other means I get movies faster. A wash.

The worst case is stalemate and stagnation. I still fear this outcome.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I think it's possible, but I'm not comfortable enough with it to place a bet on it. I think sub-$299 hybrid players for Holiday '08 are likely to happen, if not cheaper, but it's that whole full-functioning part that makes me leery. That said, if something does hit the right price stripped of functionality but with enough that the consumers don't care or don't notice, it's all that matters.

HP just announced a Quad-core PC with a hybrid BD/HD DVD drive inside shipping in February and starting under a grand. Granted, this is a different market and that machine is likely stripped out in other ways that are not so practical, but it does lend some hope to the idea that hybrid drive pricing will drop quickly this year.

I wouldn't mind if it were less than full-functional, but I see the mandated standards as a barrier to price. That's one reason why I don't think they'll get that cheap fast.