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[Laurent]

The fallout of all this is, does Sony now block MS and Nintendo from having BR drives in their next-gen systems? Do we see them stuck with DVD or even HD-DVD game discs and no hi-def movie playback from physical media?

Business is business. Why the hell would Sony refuse to license the technology?! The "because you are competing against us in the console market" clause doesn't stand...

 

[SUPREME1]

the only thing i took from that post was the part about studios saying that 51 gigs was unnecessary. something i've been saying for ages. doesn't matter now though.

BU-BU-BU-BUT.... TL51 is going to save HD DVD. It's clear as day.

HD DVD FTW CONFIRMED!!!!

 

[Chemo]

Thank you, sir! I always loved the Blue Pac-Man Eyes avatar. I missed it when you reverted.

Yeah, I had to because I kept getting lumped in with the ridiculous PS3 fanboys in the Gaming side when I'd post, but I figure now with MGS4 on the horizon and Blu-ray eating the hell out of those delicious red watermelons in every possible way it's probably kosher again. Thanks for remembering. XD

 

[Snah]

Why would Sony want to stop them from using BR drives? To wipe out the competition with the PS4. If it's the only system with a high-capacity drive, the 720 and WiiHD would be crippled in comparison.

But I think Sony has already established that Blu-Ray is more important, profit wise, to their bottom line than their videogame division. Anything that increases the adoption of HD media would likely be a good thing for them. And given that they'd have to release an add-on to their systems, the PS3 would still have an advantage in terms of cost and desirability since it's all in one unit. I don't think it would hurt them too much at all.

 

[Scotch]

The fallout of all this is, does Sony now block MS and Nintendo from having BR drives in their next-gen systems? Do we see them stuck with DVD or even HD-DVD game discs and no hi-def movie playback from physical media?

I don't see how they could. Sony doesn't own Blu-ray, the Blu-ray Disc Association does.

Just like MS and Nintendo can license DVD-drives, they can license Blu-ray drives as well.

 

[Snah]

Nope, because that very tie-in is what's going to be the cause of the PS3 to be in last place in 4 more years. Too risky console wise.

That's not entirely given, globally. Perhaps in the US, yes, but I'd say that in the next 4 years Sony has a very decent shot of being 2nd place overall.

It was risky, but for Sony it was worth it. For Microsoft? Of course not, because they're not the ones that are actually supporting a new media format since they're a software company primarily and they've never been involved in optical media.

 

[maharg]

HD-DVD was far more Toshiba's and Microsoft's format than BD was ever Sony's.

Bah, this is such a ridiculous talking point both ways around. Both formats were backed by industry groups, and both formats were essentially R&D'd by one primary company (Sony and Toshiba). MS' involvement in HD is also pretty significantly overstated. They supplied codecs to both formats, and tried to get HDi in both as well afaik.

As for the crazy notion that sony would block anyone from putting BR in a competing console, that's just nonsense.

 

[SRG01]

But I think Sony has already established that Blu-Ray is more important, profit wise, to their bottom line than their videogame division. Anything that increases the adoption of HD media would likely be a good thing for them. And given that they'd have to release an add-on to their systems, the PS3 would still have an advantage in terms of cost and desirability since it's all in one unit. I don't think it would hurt them too much at all.

Blu-Ray contributes to patent royalties, their BD players (both SAL and otherwise), their HDTVs, and so forth.

Hell, their patent royalties would probably be more than enough.

 

[StoOgE]

But I think Sony has already established that Blu-Ray is more important, profit wise, to their bottom line than their videogame division. Anything that increases the adoption of HD media would likely be a good thing for them. And given that they'd have to release an add-on to their systems, the PS3 would still have an advantage in terms of cost and desirability since it's all in one unit. I don't think it would hurt them too much at all.

Exactly, they just risked their biggest cash cow (Playstation) and have essentially sunk them into 3rd place (at the moment anyway) in the console war in order for BRD to win. There is now way that they then turnaround and risk BRD for the playstation brand.

 

[Laurent]

I don't see how they could. Sony doesn't own Blu-ray, the Blu-ray Disc Association does.

Just like MS and Nintendo can license DVD-drives, they can license Blu-ray drives as well.

Plus, what makes or break a console nowadays as nothing to do with the storage capacity... Nintendo GameCube didn't loose because their proprietary disc had a quarter of the storage capacity of a regular DVD!

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If Sony could deny Blu-ray (and if they wanted to) MS and Nintendo could always license HD-DVD. Probably at a discount rate!

Anyway, I think it's clear that they'd benefit from Blu-ray being used in other game systems.

 

[vpance]

I could see Sony having enough pull in the BDA to block MS from releasing a BD add on drive in this gen at least. When BD becomes even more of a plus in the reasons for buying a PS3, it's likely to be the case. As for next-gen, it's too soon to say IMO.

 

[Laurent]

I could see Sony having enough pull in the BDA to block MS from releasing a BD add on drive in this gen at least. When BD becomes even more of a plus in the reasons for buying a PS3, it's likely to be the case. As for next-gen, it's too soon to say IMO.

That's just silly...

 

[Beer Monkey]

Why would Sony want to stop them from using BR drives? To wipe out the competition with the PS4. If it's the only system with a high-capacity drive, the 720 and WiiHD would be crippled in comparison.

Sony doesn't control the BDA. Here are the board members:

# Apple Inc.
# Dell
# Hewlett Packard
# Hitachi
# LG Electronics
# Mitsubishi Electric
# Panasonic (Matsushita Electric)
# Pioneer Corporation
# Royal Philips Electronics
# Samsung Electronics
# Sharp Corporation
# Sony Corporation
# Sun Microsystems
# TDK Corporation
# Thomson
# Twentieth Century Fox
# Walt Disney Motion Pictures Group / Buena Vista Home Entertainment

Sony and Philips controlled CD. Ever notice how Saturn, Jaguar, 3DO still used CD?

The goal of these industry associations is to make money by getting their formats adopted everywhere, not to tongue Sony's butthole.

 

[avaya]

and both formats were essentially R&D'd by one primary company (Sony and Toshiba). MS' involvement in HD is also pretty significantly overstated. They suppli.

Actually Blu-ray was R&D' primarily by Sony, Matsushita and Philips past Sony's initial personal data format. They are not the same at all in this respect and it's reflected in the CE support.

 

[Laurent]

The goal of these industry associations is to make money by getting their formats adopted everywhere.

Quoted for emphasis...

 

[Raistlin]

Has there been any talk of Blu-Ray Audio like DVD-Audio? That would be sweet.

And what would we gain? Channels? Quality?

Yes.

Surprisingly, DSD support was not mandated for the BD spec ... though technically it could be passed by HDMI.

Regardless, BD supports higher bitrates than HD-DVD for all audio codecs, so TrueHD or DTS-MA would be sick.

The kicker being that BD supports 8 x 48/192 channels of LPCM iirc. I don't even know if anyone masters at that level for PCM ... though maybe it could help for trancoding DSD masters (they had a higher theoritical sampling rate than what MLP offered iirc).



That said, it is unclear who will actually bring out audio for it. Obviously Sony/BMG is a candidate, but a few other studios are part of the BDA ... including Universual Music interestingly enough.

 

[SolidSnakex]

I could see Sony having enough pull in the BDA to block MS from releasing a BD add on drive in this gen at least. When BD becomes even more of a plus in the reasons for buying a PS3, it's likely to be the case. As for next-gen, it's too soon to say IMO.

Even if they had the pull, it'd be incredibly dumb of them to block anyone from using BR. If its really going to take off then everyone is going to be allowed to use the tech if they want to.

 

[vpance]

That's just silly...

Well the way I see it is, Sony were willing to sacrfice the Playstation brand in order to guarantee success of BR. So BDA owes them gratitude. And anything Sony can do to reinvigorate PS3 sales at this point I'm sure they'd try to do. BR remaining an exclusive selling point for their console is a nice bullet point, and will be even more as BR grows. Now, 2 or 3 years later when console war is more settled I'm sure it'll be BR's up for all to play with.

 

[StoOgE]

Sony would love MS to release a BD add on for the 360.

 

[Pristine_Condition]

EDIT: Oh HELLO!

What's more, word is starting to circulate at CES that major big box retailers will begin winding down in-store support for HD-DVD as soon as these studios go public with their decisions. We're told that the industry's major retail partners are already pressuring Paramount, DreamWorks and Universal to go Blu following Warner's decision.

Maybe Michael Bay was right about Walmart!

http://www.thedigitalbits.com/#mytwocents

Yeah, I talked about this discussion going on in my post last night. The retail pressure is on "high" now for these companies, as every retailer my friends in Vegas talked to believe this is the time to end this and move on and get all the ducks in a row, and get HD in a real position to penetrate deep and make big money.

Note: I'm not talking about Wal-mart specifically, just retailers in general. You know who they are.

 

[Cheesemeister]

Sony probably does have the pull within the BDA to block other consoles from including it, as it was Sony's fight with the PS3 to get BD adopted as the hi-def media format. If reports of big moneyhat payouts to Warner are true, then you'd better believe Sony was instrumental in putting together such a compensation package.

Don't forget, inclusion of DVD was instrumental in the success of the PS2 and the inclusion of BD in the PS3 has always been a selling point in the marketing message. A victory in the hi-def media war could be parlayed into a reclaimed victory in the console wars.

 

[C.Dark.DN]

Sony would love MS to release a BD add on for the 360.

of course. it benefits both companies when hd-dvd drives stop being sold. & nintendo wont be making one. that'd be dumb. they are going the cheap route.

why are people arguing this? there has been rumors for a long time regarding micsoft releasing a blu-ray drive in the future. if they want to, it doesn't harm sony.

 

[Raistlin]

we covered this like 10 pages ago. SW sales are irrelevant when trying to point out the consumer choice. When you have Fox, Disney and Sony exclusively propped up against Universal and Paramount, guess which format is going to receive the most sales. To put it another way, if HD-DVD had Fox, Disney, and Sony exclusive and BRD had Universal and Paramount, do you think consumers would have made the same choice to go with BRD?

etc

You conveniently disregarded the HW sales percentages … which occurred while Toshiba had a significant price advantage, and BD had to contend with PS3 cannibalizing sales.

If people are willing to pay more to get their HW ... that is a pretty significant statement. And it also happens to be one Warner specifically stated prior to Christmas that they would be keeping an eye on.

 

[Kinan]

old?

Ok, thats seal it. Everthing over for hddvd, flawless victory for playstation:

http://www.cepro.com/article/leading_porn_studio_announces_8_blu_ray_titles/

Joone, the founder of Digital Playground, says that he was influenced by PlayStation 3 owners asking when their content would be available on Blu-ray.

“A lot of people were emailing that bought a PlayStation and they were basically saying, ‘When are you guys going to release Blu-ray?’

 

[Laurent]

Well the way I see it is, Sony were willing to sacrfice the Playstation brand in order to guarantee success of BR. So BDA owes them gratitude. And anything Sony can do to reinvigorate PS3 sales at this point I'm sure they'd try to do. BR remaining an exclusive selling point for their console is a nice bullet point, and will be even more as BR grows. Now, 2 or 3 years later when console war is more settled I'm sure it'll be BR's up for all to play with.

It doesn't make any sense at all. It's like saying that Apple was wrong and should discontinued iTunes and QuickTime for PC, thus rendering the iPhone and iPod incompatible with millions of PC, in the hope to sell more Macs.

Sony chose to take a risk and bundled Blu-ray with their console. Allowing a BDR add-on to X360 won't cut potential PS3 sales; even if only Sony was in charge of the Blu-ray legacy, they would never go against this...

 

[Raistlin]

without a question.

:lol

 

[MassiveAttack]

"Ken, I'm sorry. You were right. What's it gonna take for you to come back? Just name it, anything..."

 

[avaya]

Sony probably does have the pull within the BDA to block other consoles from including it, as it was Sony's fight with the PS3 to get BD adopted as the hi-def media format. If reports of big moneyhat payouts to Warner are true, then you'd better believe Sony was instrumental in putting together such a compensation package.

Don't forget, inclusion of DVD was instrumental in the success of the PS2 and the inclusion of BD in the PS3 has always been a selling point in the marketing message. A victory in the hi-def media war could be parlayed into a reclaimed victory in the console wars.

They'd never do it. If Blu-ray becomes the industry standard then all Microsoft and Nintendo need to do is meet the criteria for BD licensing and that's it.

No way legally for Sony to block it. Only way to do so would be to initiate a licensing rule change amongst the board of directors and then have >170 companies vote on it. Would never happen.

In any case Sony would love for Microsoft or Nintendo (lol) to go Blu-ray for their next device, it will provide an arbitrage opportunity, risk less profit. Anyone who licenses the standard has to pay a royalty to the BDA, of which Sony gets one of the biggest cuts. It's guaranteed money.

Remember Betamax made more money for Sony than their TVs, radios, walkmans or Playstations have ever done and it only succeeded in the broadcast industry. Next console race is likely to be much tighter than this one. Blu-ray offered by all three provides a natural hedge for Sony. A hedge that also pays out whatever happens.

 

[justjohn]

It doesn't make any sense at all. It's like saying that Apple was wrong and should discontinued iTunes and QuickTime for PC, thus rendering the iPhone and iPod incompatible with millions of PC.

Sony chose to take a risk and bundled Blu-ray with their console. Allowing a BDR add-on to X360 won't cut potential PS3 sales; even if only Sony was in charge of the Blu-ray legacy, they would never go against this...

definetely. if blu-ray wins, it will become a ps3 killer app, as opposed to noose round its neck. if the 360 cant play blu-ray i see a lot of people picking the ps3 instead of 360, especially as almost every third party game is also on the ps3

 

[kaching]

(including my own "content drifves sales" comment)

*phew*

 

[Raistlin]

My only worry is universal flipping everyone the bird and just going back to DVD. Not an entirely logical fear but fuck, stranger things have happened.

That would make absolutely zero sense. Not a chance.

 

[The Bookerman]

Nintendo Wii-2 to use a modified BR drive modified by Panasonic(Matsushita)?

Hey Nintendo's got strong ties to Panasonic, and I bet BR drives will be pretty cheap when the five year cycle gets done.

What are the odds.... :lol

 

[Laurent]

definetely. if blu-ray wins, it will become a ps3 killer app, as opposed to noose round its neck. if the 360 cant play blu-ray i see a lot of people picking the ps3 instead of 360, especially as almost every third party game is also on the ps3

Nobody buys a console solely as a movie player, except when it's the cheapest solution. This is not the case anymore neither with HD-DVD nor Blu-ray...

If you are a X360 owner, have no interest whatsoever in PS3 games and require a BDR drive, you will buy the cheapest solution possible... which will be a third-party BDR player.

 

[Raistlin]

I would say that after the Paramount deal, the studio releases this fall were pretty even. So, it's not correct to say that content was what decided the war, since it was practically a stalemate. Universal and Warner going all out for HD-DVD, and then Paramount switched and released the biggest movie of the year.

The Playstation 3 is the only reason Blu-Ray won this entire thing. Without the Playstation 3, 300 wouldn't have outsold the HD-DVD version 2:1. Without the Playstation 3, Blu-Ray would have never recovered from their initial and terrible entry into the market, where HD-DVD had an advantage from the start. HD-DVD already had a pretty good pricing advantage, and the average consumer doesn't care about tech specs. So, ironically, it wasn't software that won it this time, it was hardware. The PS3 was a trojan horse and it worked.

And given all that Sony's invested into the machine, they damn well deserve to win.

I wonder if we can get a headcount of how many GAFers obstinately stated that the Trojan horse model would fail … fail miserably.

:lol


There was thread after thread discussing it.

 

[Oni Jazar]

You crazy? It would be to Sony's benefit if MS or Nintendo used Blu-ray. That's more $$ for Sony.

 

[vpance]

It doesn't make any sense at all. It's like saying that Apple was wrong and should discontinued iTunes and QuickTime for PC, thus rendering the iPhone and iPod incompatible with millions of PC, in the hope to sell more Macs.

Mac vs PC is totally different than PS3 vs 360. Mac is and has been relegated to selling to their niche crowd for many years with PC dominating globally. Apple just wants their istuff to sell, period. Limiting them to Mac support only would just turn people away.

All I'm saying is if Sony chooses to leverage this advantage for at least a little longer, it could help greatly to the console side. I'm not saying it'd be a ban forever. Continued standalone players + PS3 sales are more than enough to grow the market at this time. Whether or not they're able to leverage it due to other BDA members is another question.

 

[MassiveAttack]

I wonder if we can get a headcount of how many GAFers obstinately stated that the Trojan horse model would fail … fail miserably.

:lol


There was thread after thread discussing it.

My post in the locked gaming discussion thread:

It's convenient now, isn't it? A year ago it was all doom and gloom and predictions of disaster for PS3 due to the delays caused by the inclusion of Blu-ray, how utterly useless it was and how Kutaragi was a lunatic. Now the new refrain is, "Bu-bu-bu-but there's no way the victory of Blu-ray will help PS3 anyway!"

 

[Laurent]

Sony is not Microsoft's rancorous cousin, it's a company...

 

[kaching]

Given the new thread title, this seemed appropriate:

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9845372-67.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=CES2008

"Seagate CEO: Blu-ray won the battle but lost the war"

"People are saying Blu-ray won the war but who cares? The war is over physical distribution versus electrical distribution, and Blu-ray and HD lost that," he said during a breakfast meeting at the Consumer Electronics Show here this week. "In this, flash memory and hard drives are on the same side. The war is over and the physical guys lost."

And as a chaser:

And the future continues to look good. Hollywood, Watkins said, will have no choice but to get into home delivery of content in a big way. People are leaving home less and less. And if the movie studios don't deliver their content to their home, people will watch whatever they can find on the Internet. At CES, XStreamHD is showing off a box that gets on-demand movies from a satellite. Actor Michael Douglas is an investor.

"They will watch lousy content if it is easy to do," he said.

 

[Wollan]

"Ken, I'm sorry. You were right. What's it gonna take for you to come back? Just name it, anything..."

:lol

 

[Laurent]

Mac vs PC is totally different than PS3 vs 360. Mac is and has been relegated to selling to their niche crowd for many years with PC dominating globally. Apple just wants their istuff to sell, period. Limiting them to Mac support only would just turn people away.

All I'm saying is if Sony chooses to leverage this advantage for at least a little longer, it could help greatly to the console side. I'm not saying it'd be a ban forever. Continued standalone players + PS3 sales are more than enough to grow the market at this time. Whether or not they're able to leverage it due to other BDA members is another question.

Maybe my example isn't flawless, but you get the point. I don't see how allowing Microsoft to produce a BDR add-on would hurt PS3 sales. Everybody knows that add-ons and peripherals are never adopted by the masses; hence why Nintendo bundled their then-crazy controllers with the Wii...

 

[Big-E]

Given the new thread title, this seemed appropriate:

http://ces.cnet.com/8301-13855_1-9845372-67.html?part=rss&tag=feed&subj=CES2008

"Seagate CEO: Blu-ray won the battle but lost the war"



And as a chaser:

:lol

 

[avaya]

More insider tidbits from Blu-ray.com

Just had a meeting with my Universal sales rep and he couldn't comment on what Universal is going to do but he did admit that he has heard (as of yesterday) Paramount is going to switch.

I asked them why Universal doesn't follow Warner immediately and he said it was complicated but they'll go where the business is eventually. It seems maybe the easiest path would be Toshiba just throwing in the towel now instead of forcing the remaining studios to do it for them.

On Fox going the other way before it all went down....

About as close as a drunken sailor getting a date with Queen Elizabeth II, while yelling into the window of her carriage as it is passing by in a procession.

I can confirm what Penton-Man writes (not that he needs confirmation). There are many aspects of the Blu-ray specification which are there due to Fox's contributions and expectations, most of which aren't present in HD DVD (BD+ as an example). It's close to unthinkable that they'd go HD DVD as long as Blu-ray is still viable.

On why no Toshiba executives were present at CES

He actually turned around upon landing at LAX and returned to Japan, where he was greeted at Narita by a throng of reporters (on a Sunday). I wouldn't be surprised if a round of resignations aren't likely soon.

 

[Lord Error]

Sony is not Microsoft's rancorous cousin, it's a company...

And a company that cooperates with MS, as one of their biggest licensees of Windows (because of Vaio computers)

 

[theBishop]

If Sony even has the ability to dictate who can and can't use Blu-Ray, the standard is troubled.

One reason why Blu-Ray is the successor to DVD is because of its wide multi-industry support. Sony cockblocking people would seriously damage the format. This isn't UMD.

 

[MassiveAttack]

More insider tidbits from Blu-ray.com

On why no Toshiba executives were present at CES

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t:

He actually turned around upon landing at LAX and returned to Japan, where he was greeted at Narita by a throng of reporters (on a Sunday). I wouldn't be surprised if a round of resignations aren't likely soon.

Holy shit... now there is the ultimate indignity. :lol

 

[Raistlin]

And the future continues to look good. [/b]Hollywood, Watkins said, will have no choice but to get into home delivery of content in a big way.[/b] People are leaving home less and less. And if the movie studios don't deliver their content to their home, people will watch whatever they can find on the Internet. At CES, XStreamHD is showing off a box that gets on-demand movies from a satellite. Actor Michael Douglas is an investor.

:lol Yes, because Hollywood can magically improve infastructure. It ain't up to the studios.

"They will watch lousy content if it is easy to do," he said.

We'll see.

He actually turned around upon landing at LAX and returned to Japan, where he was greeted at Narita by a throng of reporters (on a Sunday). I wouldn't be surprised if a round of resignations aren't likely soon.

OH SHITS!!! 0_o

 

[Snah]

Originally Posted by Talkstr8t:

Holy shit... now there is the ultimate indignity. :lol

This shit is incredible. They need to make a movie about it and release it on Blu-Ray.

I don't think you could write a better story then all of this HD-DVD/Blu-Ray drama.

 

[OokieSpookie]

The BDA including Sony would welcome MS to make an add on or include bd in their next system, do not have any misconceptions or doubt about it.
Dvd is the next enemy and any help to blu is welcome and will increase profits all across the market.