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[theBishop]

An article from Tom's Hardware :
http://www.tomshardware.com/2008/01/17/don_t_say_goodbye_to_hd_dvd_yet/

Snip :
Also, keep in mind that more than 90% of all Blu-ray hardware sales come in the form of the Playstation 3. A video game console is a solid platform on which to launch a new format medium, but it's hardly enough to sustain the medium for years to come.

We're not exactly looking at new turf here. Sony has doled out countless formats, all of which were technologically superior and impressive on a specification sheet. However, the company has had a pathetic success rate with these formats. I'm talking about Betamax, which was actually better than VHS; the Digital Audio Tape and Minidisc were both the first to explore the field of recordable digital audio but both failed, and Sony's Hi8 video camcorder tape format also sunk.

And of course, looking at the Playstation 3 factor is a must when we are talking about Blu-ray. While it seems good to have such huge support from a device, it seems very difficult to swallow the idea that a game console can determine the result of an entire format war.

Which of course is garbage. Take out the PS3 and 360 (expansion bay) and not only do you have a tiny (insignificant) HD market right now, you also don't have this massive online clusterfuck. Let's face it, this "war" wouldn't be half as heated if it wasn't fueled by basically Sony haters and Sony fanboys. You know something is seriously fucked when Microsoft is a trusted authority on "Consumer Rights".

Would Toshiba have slashed the price of their players if PS3 weren't trouncing them? Impossible to say.

Leave the consoles out of it, and Blu-Ray still clearly had the healthier ecosystem. Far more consumer electronics support, galvanized exclusive studios, ahead of the game on recordable media, technically superior with room to grow.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

somehow i dont believe you

Why is that?

I've maintained through this whole mudslinging campaign on either side of the Red vs. Blue debate that I love movies.

I also happen to like High Def content.

So now that I'm getting both, why is that a bad thing? It's really not. I'll still have my opinion on which format (again IMO) has the better tech just by looking at specs but both formats continue to impress.

 

[avaya]

Ok I have a question about digital copy. Fox is including it in BDs so if your computer only has a DVD drive how will you extract the file for your ipod?

You're stuck. The iPod thing is proprietary and not part of any standard spec. Maybe if they integrate with the AACS Managed Copy framework they could get this to work without a PC BD drive.

 

[border]

Trotting out last year's HD-DVD talking points doesn't seem so effective after the revelations of 2008 :lol

Bu-bu-bu-bu-but BETAMAX!
Bu-bu-bu-bu-but INTERNET FEATURES!

He can't layout any kind of strategy for HD-DVD's success. All the guy can do is hope for some kind of deus ex machina turnabout -- "there's always the chance for a unpredictable surprise that changes the game entirely". Yeah dude, I'm pretty sure that unpredictable surprise happened about 2 weeks ago.

 

[jjasper]

You're stuck. The iPod thing is proprietary and not part of any standard spec. Maybe if they integrate with the AACS Managed Copy framework they could get this to work without a PC BD drive.

So are the digital copies for Fox's BDs the stuff you will extract from the disc for the PSP?

 

[VictimOfGrief]

Which of course is garbage. Take out the PS3 and 360 (expansion bay) and not only do you have a tiny (insignificant) HD market right now, you also don't have this massive online clusterfuck. Let's face it, this "war" wouldn't be half as heated if it wasn't fueled by basically Sony haters and Sony fanboys. You know something is seriously fucked when Microsoft is a trusted authority on "Consumer Rights".

Would Toshiba have slashed the price of their players if PS3 weren't trouncing them? Impossible to say.

Leave the consoles out of it, and Blu-Ray still clearly had the healthier ecosystem. Far more consumer electronics support, galvanized exclusive studios, ahead of the game on recordable media, technically superior with room to grow.

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I'm not convinced at this point that the PS3 sales directly impact the war greatly but it does play a part.

I'm surprised though, we haven't heard jack shit about HD DVD doubling it's format size since Paramount jumped to HD DVD and then this whole WB melodrama started.

 

[Jim]

This way, I get a Blu player that gets updated when the spec gets updated and I don't have to worry about a $400 dollar paper weight. Same as with my 360 add-on.

A movie's a movie, and all future movies will play on all previously released players. That's the important part.

Just because a new movie can't play a special feature in a little window or allow you to blog about the movie online through your player or play an online matching or trivia game doesn't make it a paperweight. It still does the primary thing it was intended to. The rest is optional fluff. I still believe most people (myself included) watch HD movies for the "HD movie". I can personally count the number of times I've bothered to watch a special feature on a DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray movie over the past several years on two hands.

And like with 99% of the consumer electronics products out there, whether it be a Wii a TV or a Blu-day player there is really no such thing as a "final spec". Features and fixes are always being added. Wait until you start dealing with the firmware hell that people go through updating their HDTVs... it's pretty amusing.

 

[dallow_bg]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I'm not convinced at this point that the PS3 sales directly impact the war greatly but it does play a part.

I'm surprised though, we haven't heard jack shit about HD DVD doubling it's format size since Paramount jumped to HD DVD and then this whole WB melodrama started.

Don't tell me you actually thought it was a good article you linked to?

Don't worry, it won't "double" again.

 

[avaya]

So are the digital copies for Fox's BDs the stuff you will extract from the disc for the PSP?

I doubt it. Currently Managed Copy is a clusterfuck. It seems like three studios are willing to do it: Sony, Fox and Disney (likely). In my view if you can get Fox to sign up for this you can get anyone (as long as DRM is common)!

So they should be able to agree to use a common MPEG-4 encode on the BD that will work with iPods and PSPs. I don't know why they won't do this, probably because they get more money for proprietary encodes for each player. They can use ~4-5GB of a BD-50 for this type of thing.

In the coming years they could likely sort this out, it shouldn't be a problem for them all to agree on a standard spec. If they do that it will also leave them in a better bargaining position vs. hardware makers.

 

[jjasper]

It didn't double Blu Ray just lost a 1/5 or so of its support size

avaya if it can't be used why is Fox plastering it all over the front of a box?

 

[Zaptruder]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I'm not convinced at this point that the PS3 sales directly impact the war greatly but it does play a part.

I'm surprised though, we haven't heard jack shit about HD DVD doubling it's format size since Paramount jumped to HD DVD and then this whole WB melodrama started.

Again and again, your tag proves to be succint and accurate. It's a cliche, but it's also the truth in this case.

 

[avaya]

It didn't double Blu Ray just lost a 1/5 or so of its support size

avaya if it can't be used why is Fox plastering it all over the front of a box?

Maybe they did use a standard MPEG-4 encode and they expect PMP manufacturers to add support. I doubt it's going to be easy though. If Fox were clever they would have their own DRM system which they license so Apple adds support and so can Sony. That might be it.

I'm not sure if all iPod MPEG-4's work on all legal PSPs. Sony could probably fix the firmware to allow it though.

 

[StoOgE]

So, the Sammy Dual format player now plays all movies without any hitches. It still doesnt do TrueHD (other than 2ch) or DTS-MA, but Sammy is promising that in an update around May. And its got the same upscaling processor as my XA2.

I think I'm gonna pull the trigger.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

A movie's a movie, and all future movies will play on all previously released players. That's the important part.

Just because a new movie can't play a special feature in a little window or allow you to blog about the movie online through your player or play an online matching or trivia game doesn't make it a paperweight. It still does the primary thing it was intended to. The rest is optional fluff. I still believe most people (myself included) watch HD movies for the "HD movie". I can personally count the number of times I've bothered to watch a special feature on a DVD/HD-DVD/Blu-Ray movie over the past several years on two hands.

And like with 99% of the consumer electronics products out there, whether it be a Wii a TV or a Blu-day player there is really no such thing as a "final spec". Features and fixes are always being added. Wait until you start dealing with the firmware hell that people go through updating their HDTVs... it's pretty amusing.

well that's the key problem with technology, they design it so it can't be updated so you have to throw the shit away and buy new things.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

Again and again, your tag proves to be succint and accurate. It's a cliche, but it's also the truth in this case.

Welcome to Jack's growing ignore list.

 

[mollipen]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

The problem with this, and every other argument about "previous Sony formats," is Blu-ray is not at all like those. Releasing your own format of data-saving media, often times into an area that has more than one other competing format present, and launching Blu-ray - a format based around pre-created content - with the support of numerous other industry giants behind you, are night and day different.

That's why that Tom's Hardware nonsense is just that, nonsense.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

The problem with this, and every other argument about "previous Sony formats," is Blu-ray is not at all like those. Releasing your own format of data-saving media, often times into an area that has more than one other competing format present, and launching Blu-ray - a format based around pre-created content - with the support of numerous other industry giants behind you, are night and day different.

That's why that Tom's Hardware nonsense is just that, nonsense.

Well I didn't post that article to defend HD DVD, I was just posting it as yet another insight into the denial that most are still having in regards to the format war.

 

[border]

This has probably already been posted....but does anyone know the movie it's from? Looks pretty cool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOcdgQ

 

[Gary Whitta]

This has probably already been posted....but does anyone know the movie it's from? Looks pretty cool...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=friS4OOcdgQ

Oh my God, not AGAIN! What is this, the fifth time?

 

[border]

I kind of have to post the link if I want my question answered, sorry *shrug*

 

[avaya]

I kind of have to post the link if I want my question answered, sorry *shrug*

Der Untergang or Downfall in English

 

[sonycowboy]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I'm not convinced at this point that the PS3 sales directly impact the war greatly but it does play a part.

I'm surprised though, we haven't heard jack shit about HD DVD doubling it's format size since Paramount jumped to HD DVD and then this whole WB melodrama started.

By formats Sony created did you also "resist"

The 1.44MB floppy disc, the CD-ROM, and the DVD (compromised)?

 

[oatmeal]

From The Downfall.

http://imdb.com/title/tt0363163/

 

[VictimOfGrief]

By formats Sony created did you also "resist"

The 1.44MB floppy disc, the CD-ROM, and the DVD (compromised)?

Actually no I was referring to the UMD, Sony Memory stick just off the top of my head.

 

[Gattsu25]

Actually no I was referring to the UMD, Sony Memory stick just off the top of my head.

So only the ones that deal with the PSP?

 

[dallow_bg]

Actually no I was referring to the UMD, Sony Memory stick just off the top of my head.

:lol

Stop with the irrational hate already.

 

[Raistlin]

Betamax was not better than VHS.

Beta provided a better picture than VHS however VHS allowed you to record for far longer, which was more important than marginal difference in quality. Sony let JVC scope out the Beta technology expecting them to comeback and license it.

This really was Beta's downfall. The did however bring out players that offered 3 tiers of recordings speeds (similar to VHS's 3 tiers). The maximum recording time was approximately 5 hours at the lowest quality setting.

It should be noted that the IQ was better than the equivelent VHS speeds, impressive given their size. Had they made the tape the same size as VHS, it would have crushed it.



Probabably the coolest feature was its different scan and jump modes. I really wish JVC would have implemented at least some of them in VHS.

 

[Chemo]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I'm not convinced at this point that the PS3 sales directly impact the war greatly but it does play a part.

I'm surprised though, we haven't heard jack shit about HD DVD doubling it's format size since Paramount jumped to HD DVD and then this whole WB melodrama started.

Ohhhh man.

Hahahahah.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

So only the ones that deal with the PSP?

How exactly does a Sony memory stick JUST deal with a Sony PSP? I'm talking walkmans, camera's, TV's, dvd players etc.

 

[Raistlin]

To me.... I'm amazed that they (meaning both the HD DVD and Blu Ray camp) haven't hammered out final details on a "final" spec on what they want to include because I'm sure stand along players (and people who buy them) who aren't going to be able to use features that get included in the new disc's are going to be pissed.

This way, I get a Blu player that gets updated when the spec gets updated and I don't have to worry about a $400 dollar paper weight. Same as with my 360 add-on.

The final specs are hammered out for BD HW. Profile 1.1 is now mandatory, and 2.0 is optional. The only real addition 2.0 gets you is for online content ... so it is quite easy to advertise on the box without getting technical. People who have access to the internet near the TV will easily be able to decide whether they care about that or not.

Other than that, all PiP, etc will be in all the players. At the point BD players hit mass-market players, 1.0 players will not exist ... so no one will really run into any sort of issue. As for people that purchased players currently ... they are early adopters, and knew what they were getting into.

 

[Flo_Evans]

How exactly does a Sony memory stick JUST deal with a Sony PSP? I'm talking walkmans, camera's, TV's, dvd players etc.

I wouldn't really put the MS in the 'failure' category.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

:lol

Stop with the irrational hate already.

I'm hating by buying a PS3. Right.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

The Sony Format thing is started by people who just want to run down the company, for whatever reason. Sony is a big R&D shop, and thus they make new formats. Some of them succeed, some of them fail. They seem to do better when they do it with tech partners then when they go alone, Blu-ray is one of the latter instances.

I forgot about the 1.44" floppy disc.

Also, minidisc was a high-quality recordable format that beat the pants off cassette tapes, and lasted for abpout 15 years. Made more of an impact everywhere *but* the US, but it's not quite failure level. More like "never made the big leagues."
Anyway, VoG, you say you posted this to show an example of somebody in denial about the format war being over, but posting it without comment makes it look like you endorese the point of view to some extent, and that article is *reallllly* out there. That, with your Sony-critical stance, makes it seem like you really are hanging onto something.

 

[Christopher]

Sony killed my parents

 

[VictimOfGrief]

The Sony Format thing is started by people who just want to run down the company, for whatever reason. Sony is a big R&D shop, and thus they make new formats. Some of them succeed, some of them fail. They seem to do better when they do it with tech partners then when they go alone, Blu-ray is one of the latter instances.

I forgot about the 1.44" floppy disc.

Also, minidisc was a high-quality recordable format that beat the pants off cassette tapes, and lasted for abpout 15 years. Made more of an impact everywhere *but* the US, but it's not quite failure level. More like "never made the big leagues."
Anyway, VoG, you say you posted this to show an example of somebody in denial about the format war being over, but posting it without comment makes it look like you endorese the point of view to some extent, and that article is *reallllly* out there. That, with your Sony-critical stance, makes it seem like you really are hanging onto something.

I'm really not. Everyone is reading WAY to much into this. I simply didn't care for the formats Sony came out with in the past. Does that make me a bad person or because my personal bias was I didn't care for them.... make me a Sony hater? I don't get how some of you (not you Mouse...) jump to that conclusion.

 

[YYZ]

lol the Hitler video is hillarious, it fits perfectly :lol

Sucks if you know German though, it wouldn't be funny.

 

[Raistlin]

My main problem with Sony in general and the reason why I resisted getting a Blu-Ray player was because of Sony's previous formats and their shoving that as the standard that everyone would just accept at some point.

I could argue about how a number of the techs Tom listed really weren’t’ in that situation, but let's not derail.

What is pertinent to this discussion however is the fact that BluRay in NO WAY fits the above description. BDA had the majority support (both studio and CE) before it launched.

If anyone fit the above description, it was Toshiba with HD-DVD. The HW spec was a Toshiba proprietary design, and they had limited support compared to the BDA.

 

[ManaByte]

Watching The Patriot Extended right now, the audio is great. Detail is perfect in some parts, but the added scenes look a bit flat (they were originally the deleted scenes on the first DVD).

 

[dallow_bg]

I'm really not. Everyone is reading WAY to much into this. I simply didn't care for the formats Sony came out with in the past. Does that make me a bad person or because my personal bias was I didn't care for them.... make me a Sony hater? I don't get how some of you (not you Mouse...) jump to that conclusion.

Just your attitude.

You should read back what you put down.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

I'm really not. Everyone is reading WAY to much into this. I simply didn't care for the formats Sony came out with in the past. Does that make me a bad person or because my personal bias was I didn't care for them.... make me a Sony hater? I don't get how some of you (not you Mouse...) jump to that conclusion.

Oh, I think you're a Sony Hater.

And.... you hate CDs? never really answered that. Or DVDs?

My point is you have a filter on that screens out any of Sony's more successful formats.

 

[shantyman]

The criticism of UMDs just kills me. What was Sony supposed to do, license the DS cartridge format?

 

[Raistlin]

I'm really not. Everyone is reading WAY to much into this. I simply didn't care for the formats Sony came out with in the past. Does that make me a bad person or because my personal bias was I didn't care for them.... make me a Sony hater? I don't get how some of you (not you Mouse...) jump to that conclusion.

What it does make you, is appear ignorant.

You are unaware of Sony's business model, nor its IP and patent holdings.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

well then I'm ignorant. Sue me.

 

[Raistlin]

The criticism of UMDs just kills me. What was Sony supposed to do, license the DS cartridge format?

Agreed ... it really is simply used as an attack point against Sony. It really is a straw man.

 

[ManaByte]

It didn't double Blu Ray just lost a 1/5 or so of its support size

avaya if it can't be used why is Fox plastering it all over the front of a box?

FOX IS NOT USING MANAGED COPY

They are doing this with their standard DVD releases; both Die Hard 4 and Blue Harvest include digital copies; and Managed Copy is not something normal DVDs are able to do.

ALL FOX IS DOING IS INCLUDING A .MP4 DRM PROTECTED FILE ON THE DISC

It's no different from the movies you download off of iTunes. It isn't using Managed Copy to copy the movie, simply the storage space to include what is basically an iTunes movie file using their own custom DRM solution.

 

[Christoff Yurievich]

The criticism of UMDs just kills me. What was Sony supposed to do, license the DS cartridge format?

I still think they should have gone with HiMD (I know, OK?) but UMD was a good alternative. Not so good for movies (bye-bye full battery charge!) but whatever.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

If you weren't in it for the Sony hate, you'd say something like "Oh, they made CDs, DVDs, and the most widely used floppy disc formats? I guess I was mistaken."

You might respond to the comment that HD-DVD was the more proprietary format and that Blu-ray was the more-supported standard to begin with (and why a lot of use chose it).

Instead, you hand onto your bias and use emotional reasoning.

 

[Flo_Evans]

FOX IS NOT USING MANAGED COPY

They are doing this with their standard DVD releases; both Die Hard 4 and Blue Harvest include digital copies; and Managed Copy is not something normal DVDs are able to do.

ALL FOX IS DOING IS INCLUDING A .MP4 DRM PROTECTED FILE ON THE DISC

It's no different from the movies you download off of iTunes. It isn't using Managed Copy to copy the movie, simply the storage space to include what is basically an iTunes movie file using their own custom DRM solution.

I wonder if this will be a PC only thing or if the PS3 will be able to put movies on my iphone. PSP transfer is probably a lock but I don't use that much anymore.

 

[VictimOfGrief]

If you weren't in it for the Sony hate, you'd say something like "Oh, they made CDs, DVDs, and the most widely used floppy disc formats? I guess I was mistaken."

You might respond to the comment that HD-DVD was the more proprietary format and that Blu-ray was the more-supported standard to begin with (and why a lot of use chose it).

Instead, you hand onto your bias and use emotional reasoning.

Actually no. I concede that the CD and DVD formats and even the floppy developed by Sony R&D are great things and I like them. I use all of them in a day to day format and lives are made better by them.

Also the whole which one is more proprietary... are you basing that on which one had more support than the other when launched? I can see that point.

 

[Zaptruder]

Welcome to Jack's growing ignore list.

Well I didn't post that article to defend HD DVD, I was just posting it as yet another insight into the denial that most are still having in regards to the format war.

Hmm hmm. I see.