Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Christopher said:
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Hi-Def Media Lovefest: The war is over and we can all go home.
- Thread starter HyperionX
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That article doesn't seem that bad...navanman said:
It could have gone either way just a few weeks ago, but now it really is over for HD DVD.
That's basically been the refrain from HD-DVD supporters for weeks now. Somehow there is solace in the thought that they were somehow about to win but their opponent had a full house to their straight. Whether or not that angle is true I guess we'll never know, but for the time being it's harmless pandering to people who got burned by HD-DVD.
The only real FUD in there is the assertion that Universal and Paramount are probably going to stick it out until 2009 (or until Toshiba waves the white flag). I don't see that as likely....nor does it seem likely that Toshiba can pretend nothing is wrong for another 12 months.
tha_con said:
First off, there is not such thing as a native 24fps (or 30fps) picture. TV's don't refresh at those rates. The refresh rates are generally 60Hz and 120Hz, with some offering 72Hz or 96Hz.
Regarldess, what I'm saying is that the implementation in these TV's is what is wonkey. Instead of adding a black-screen (or lower chroma screen) in the intermediate frames, they are actively generating motion-interpolated frames. The tech isn't ready for prime-time though.
These particular TV's should offer the option for both modes of blur-reduction (assuming they don't).
Also, no 120Hz TV to my knowledge will actively take a 60Hz signal ... check for 3:2 pull down ... reconstruct the 24fps film rate ... and then do 5:5 to bring it up to 120Hz. They are simply motion interpolating (or in the case of other TV's, adding black frames, etc).
I would hope that they are properly handling 24fps material (even if the motion interpolation is creating weird artifacts) ... but I haven't researched them to verify.
[Edit]
See argyle's post above ... it would appear MotionFlow can be independantly disabled from 120Hz mode. I just wonder what its actually doing in that situation? Is it simply doing 5:5 or 2:2 (for 24Hz and 60Hz respectively) ... or is it also putting in black-frames?
If its the former, then that will still reduce judder for film material (assuming your player outputs 24fps) ... but won't help with blurring. If its the latter, it should do both.
OokieSpookie
Banned
Nicodimas said:
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
I'd really be pissed off at the HD DVD guys in this thread if there was a nice option for them to switch to Blu, and they're sitting there crying like babies. But for someone who went with HD DVD because of the lower costs, there really is no affordable option. The most future proof BD player is $399.
It's just not an easy switch to make. I'd recommend selling off your HD DVD players to subsidize the cost of a 40GB Ps3 if you can't afford both. I'm fortunate that I was dual format anyway, but I can see why there would be frustration on the HD DVD only side since there aren't any affordable options that won't leave folks feeling burned again with the inability to play features.
Personally, I have a 2nd tv that I'd love to get a BD player for, but find myself frustrated by the lack of decent low cost options on the BD side.
It's just not an easy switch to make. I'd recommend selling off your HD DVD players to subsidize the cost of a 40GB Ps3 if you can't afford both. I'm fortunate that I was dual format anyway, but I can see why there would be frustration on the HD DVD only side since there aren't any affordable options that won't leave folks feeling burned again with the inability to play features.
Personally, I have a 2nd tv that I'd love to get a BD player for, but find myself frustrated by the lack of decent low cost options on the BD side.
I can't believe this Petition is actually news on High-Def Digest:
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Thousands_Sign_Save_HD_DVD_Petition/1374
About 7000 people signed. That will totally sway Warner. :lol
http://www.highdefdigest.com/news/show/Thousands_Sign_Save_HD_DVD_Petition/1374
About 7000 people signed. That will totally sway Warner. :lol
I guess a lot of people assumed that the war would rage on for years, and even if their side failed they would be able to switch over with a cheap box. Nobody expected HD-DVD to be dealth a killing blow this early-on, before the BluRay players had gotten cheaper.
On the other hand.....it's the HD era and these people are early adopters. The movies are like $30 a pop and the TV set you own probably costed thousands of dollars. Why are you in the pool if you can't swim? I dunno if it's a matter of not being able to afford a BluRay player, or just not wanting to pay $400 for having bet on the wrong horse.
On the other hand.....it's the HD era and these people are early adopters. The movies are like $30 a pop and the TV set you own probably costed thousands of dollars. Why are you in the pool if you can't swim? I dunno if it's a matter of not being able to afford a BluRay player, or just not wanting to pay $400 for having bet on the wrong horse.
VanMardigan
has calmed down a bit.
Oni Jazar said:
Coming from the HD DVD side, I'll disagree. I want it all, because I know once studios start putting effort into their 1.1 and 2.0 functionality (like HD DVD studios were beginning to do), the results were pretty solid. I know that the BD studios have a lot of stuffed planned, and 1.1 functionality will become common. You just don't want a gimped player once this stuff starts flowing. Watch for the Warner 1.1 and 2.0 stuff, they really pushed those features on HD DVD.
Cause Toshiba let them in? come on, with all the CE might and studio support, I think you'll agree that Blu Ray needs to aggressively push down player prices to drive HD discs into the mainstream.
Same for you. We're going to be hitting the 2 year mark in a few months, and every announced BD player at CES seemed like they were still 400 and above. I already own a BD player, but it's obvious that folks want to think it's still a format war issue for me. It's not, I want more movies like everyone else, and I want cheaper players to drive mainstream adoption of Blu Ray. I just don't think CE's are in any rush to do that, and its frustrating.
Also, the Dreamcast comparison is garbage. The A3's were at $199 even while Paramount switched sides. It wasn't obvious then that the war was going to be over this soon.
VanMardigan said:
Whatever man, HD media is a new technology. Its still first adopter prices. The only reason HD-DVD players were available at bargain basement prices is because the only company making them was desperate to hold onto their relevance. It was artificial.
Its like buying a Dreamcast when it was dying for sub $100 and complaining about PS2/Xbox's "anti-consumer" $300 pricetag.
OokieSpookie
Banned
VanMardigan said:
Like I have said before, people have this misconception that high def media is some kind of right that people have and it is not.
If you can not pay for it, than do not worry about it until it comes down but do not bitch.
Toshiba killed themselves with that thinking, because people who worry that much about the price of a player are not going to buy movies regularly.
I said it, others said it but nooooooo it couldn't be true.
History has now proven that it was correct.
Prices will come down when they come down, nobody owes anybody anything.
May sound like a dick, but it is true.
The prices will come down in no time.
I agree that prices should come down, but my point was more that if someone was unable to cope financially with his chosen format's demise, then he shouldn't have been making that gamble. Though I guess there's also the point that if someone blew three grand on the TV set, how is a $400 player really going to break their back? It's 10-15 less movies you can buy.VanMardigan said:
And the flip side of this is at least the war ended early. The longer it went on, the more the "low end" adopters would have invested in movies. Which would have made a switchover even more painful, to have to re-purchase a huge library.
VanMardigan said:
Agreed. I'm going to want a second BD player this year, and probably one for my girlfriend when we get her an HD setup later this year. But whereas HD DVD was priced to practically be an impulse buy, I find myself slower to pull the trigger on the BD side--despite the fact that its future is much more assured.
Why do people have to do this? I am compelled to make all my outside colors match type logic. With high def J6P is going to be buying new releases mostly at first, until the deals start coming around $5 black friday stuff. I do not think they will be switching up on dvds they already own, the more hardcore movie watchers will do this. My mom/grandmother still have tapes they never replaced on DvD.
OokieSpookie
Banned
Nicodimas said:
I think it is fair to say that the term J6P is as dead and timely as hd-dvd itself as far as how much it matters.
polyh3dron
Banned
If I ever had doubt that they subtlely favored HD DVD over there, this has completely erased it. :lolXater said:
Onix said:
I think it could be the MotionFlow that's causing the issues. I was at Futureshop at the time, and it is totally possible that they enabled it to show off the feature. I didn't want to mess up the kiosk so I didn't fool around with the settings.
But yeah, the first thing that came to mind was "there's something wrong with this..."
VanMardigan said:
The reality (in general), is that if someone had the disposable income to get an HD-DVD that was useful ... ie. own an HDTV of sufficient size that HD material really matters ... then being able to afford a BluRay player isn't a stretch.
In general, few J6P's were out there getting HD-DVD players, even at their price. It was mostly early adopters.
Maybe your grandma has some VHS titles of stuff she never bought on DVD, but how movies does she have in Betamax? :lolNicodimas said:
HD-DVD is dead, and at some point people will get sick of keeping an extra box around to support the small library of titles they bought during the format war. Once prices come down to DVD-level I doubt they'll think twice.
The only 120hz TV i have seen was a Sony at Frys running Bourne Ultimatum on DVD through a PS3, its about as close as i have ever come to having motion sickness, and i saw Ultimatum in theaters.
It just felt off and too smooth.
I prefer my Pioneers method of implementing 1080p/24
It just felt off and too smooth.
I prefer my Pioneers method of implementing 1080p/24
Nicodimas said:
Sometimes, there are future cost considerations.
For titles you want to keep long term, you have to consider the longevity of your player. Your HD-DVD player won't last forever ... so what happens when it breaks? In the future, Toshiba obviously will NOT be subsidizing players if the format is dead. What would be their incentive? They will either be selling them at a margin, or simply not selling them at all. In that case, you will need to find a player (most likely a combo unit) from one of the more 'boutique' CE's. That won't be cheap.
When considering the above, many people will come to the conclusion it is better to sell their HD-DVD titles that are on both platforms, and replace it with the BD version. If they instead wait until their HD-DVD player dies, they then have to contend with the fact the titles will likely be worth far less than what they can get for them right now.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
Onix said:
:lol
Nicodimas said:
1) The Tosh players were subsidized, and made as cheaply as possible in general. If you have an XA2 though, hopefully you'll be okay. Regardless, we don't know the long-term reliability of them.
2) Unless this round of HDM flops in general, there will NOT be a different format for a long time. Decades easily. There simply isn't a viable reason to go beyond what is currently available (especially if BD75/100 ever comes to fruition). 1080 resolution was picked due to broadcast standards, which will remain the same for our lifetime. For audio, we already have lossless. There just isn't any real incentive for a new format. At most, we may see some sort of evolution of BD to support some other features later, but it won't be considered a 'new format'.
Ignatz Mouse
Banned
The winner of this round is the format that gets backwards compatibility into the future. When (if) we do see a new format, HD-DVD is not likely going to be supported on it.
I completely disagree Onix. In six years, we will see Holographic disks with 4k resolution cropping up and a few years from that it will be the standard. Film is still way way beyond 1080P.
We already saw the TVs being shown in 2008!
In the next gen, I might want to replace my old hd-dvds.
God Onix I *love* your decades quote...
Nicodimas said:
In case you don't know the history of DVD ... the studios and CE's knew is was going to be a 'short-term solution'. The HD spec was already in discussion at its inception, but they decided to put forth an SD-only spec with the expectation to replace it later.
For HDM, they expect a FAR longer lifetime.
Nicodimas said:
The problem with this theory is broadcasts. They will not move to beyond 1080p for decades (if they ever even go to 1080p). Because of this, there will never be the incentive for the general population to purchase higher resolution TV's en masse.
The studios and CE's have actually discussed what I'm talking about ... it was how they came to the specs we saw in HD-DVD and BD. They are looking at a long-term solution ... and they (including the people making TV's) know that 4k is unlikely to be viable to general consummers.
Cold-Steel
Member
People who think we've moving above 1080p really need to evaluate how many homes will have 70"+ screens in this awful economy.
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