I think future generations will look back at this whole conflict the same way we look back at apartheid in South Africa. I mean, we condemn that and we ask "what the fuck was the world thinking", but now that we have a similar situation, we will be left to explain to future generations why this was allowed to happen for so long.
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Hillary: Must elect "a president with a deep, personal commitment to Israels future"
- Thread starter benjipwns
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TheLostBigBoss
Banned
what a shrill for Israel, I can't believe we're gonna have another eight years of sucking their dick!!!!
Aaronrules380
Member
I mean, even with the similarities, there are differences too. For one thing, the racism going on on both sides is the result of decades of tension and war between two groups of people, rather than the idea of racial superiority
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Alright, that was a terrible mistake, I guess. I was just trying to illustrate that whatever the candidates have done in the past, it's their current and future actions that we need to be wary about. But I guess I missed the mark badly.
But still the fact that remains is simple: we have the one person that has the biggest shot of becoming the US president stated, in strong and definitive terms, that every effort that anyone will do to have Israel account for its mistakes needs to be quashed.
It's just really worrying. How anyone can just hand-wave that as "she's just doing what everyone else is doing" is equally worrying as well.
Aaronrules380
Member
I mean, it's also a stance that's being taken during election season, and I know for a fact that many American Jews take the stance of Israel very, very seriously in elections.
RumblingRosco
Member
Thanks for the link. I'll be sure to share this every time someone wonders why I'm going to feel like shit if I have to vote for Hilldawg over BernieBro in November.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
The stance that agrees that the US needs to keep playing a blind guardian to everything that Israel has done, is doing, and will be doing is just wrong.
We even get the "asking for Israel to have a sense of responsibility" = "anti-semitism" rhetoric in her speech. Complete with the implication that the only one that needs to stop doing the wrong thing is just Palestine.
Ain't that a lovely thing.
RumblingRosco
Member
I'm not sure how someone saying 'yeah there is some discrimination involved' is the same thing as saying you'll 'equip Israel with the greatest military tools available' but I will agree that Bernie is still not entirely aligned with my own desires.
Aaronrules380
Member
My point was that it's not necessarily fair to take this as her actual personal stance and not just something she's saying for the sake of the election
That's unfortunate.
soundahfekz
Member
This is just lip service. Anyone who doesn't "show" commitment would be considered unelectable regardless of people's personal feelings about the matter.
Unknown Soldier
Member
They also spy aggressively on their "friend and ally" and we just let them.
Exactly.
When Hillary says something good, it's her honest stance regardless of any past statements to the contrary.
When Hillary says something bad, it's not her honest stance and she's only saying it for the sake of the election.
Get it right, people.
They'd have to convert to Judaism and they aren't into that.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well considering how the US has conducted itself so far in regards to everything Israel--except for a few blips under Obama's administration and even that can be considered relatively benign blips--it's only fair that some would find that this speech of her about Israel as a really worrying sign of what to expect when she gets that president chair.
Tesseract
Banned
let's give every candidate free passes to disneyland
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm not saying that. I'm saying that you shouldn't just take any stance at face value during election season
Jews can't marry Christians in Israel.
#OnlyDemocracyInTheMiddleEast
Aaronrules380
Member
Not like Hilary was Secretary of State under the Obama administration or anything
I don't think he's wrong. Much like how unconscious misogyny underlies some of the gut opposition to Clinton, Israel is treated differently than any other state in the international community. While the Likud party has committed some absolutely evil acts against the Palestinians, states like China, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, or even the United States are just as complicit in similar crimes. However, there aren't mass protests on college campuses calling for the US to end their support for Turkey.
Criticizing the Israeli government is very good, but criticism does not exist in a vacuum. Anti-Semitism is a plausible reason for why Israel is held to a higher standard than other states who kill or injure civilians en masse.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
And yet here we are, with her saying those things in her speech.
Oh please, whenever Hillary says anything people jump down her throat, even if it's crap the candidate they're supporting says. Try to remember that GAF is literally the only site where people post where Hillary has any support at all. Right now this article is front page on reddit's politics page. And there's a bunch more just like it.
If Hillary so much as talks too loudly, she gets shit for that. Don't try to turn her into someone people are handling with kid gloves.
Gotta keep the race pure!
Aaronrules380
Member
You mean like any other candidate who wants to have a chance to actually get elected. (And before bringing up Bernie, lets remember he made his stance today, and his chances of getting the democratic nomination at this point are incredibly miniscule anyways)
benjipwns
Banned
Interesting, I did not know this about GAF.
Wow, is this true?
SenorArdilla
Member
Keeping that legacy alive.
Don't they make an exception for fine ass Christians?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
I don't get how "everyone is doing the same thing" is a fine justification of actually doing the wrong thing.
Or how can anyone can be so be 100% sure that it's just an election game and not her actual stance about the whole thing. Well, no one's actually know what's "inside her heart", for sure, but the fact remains that she has a strong statement out there reaffirming that kind of stance, and that's one major point for the "people worrying" camp and not-so-much for the "oh she's just playing games" camp.
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm not saying it's justification. I'm saying that we really don't know either way because its a key issue for many Jews that can make or break a candidate for them, and not likely to hurt her much with anyone else.
Tesseract
Banned
You do realize Obama said the same sort of stuff while he was running and that Clinton was his Secretary of State right?
Yeah, it's pretty fucked up. When Israel was founded, a state Rabbinate was set up that determined morality law. Because Israel is pretty heavily Orthodox, morality law in Israel is usually pretty conservative. It's so bad that over 10% of Israelis actually get legally married while traveling abroad, because a marriage can be obtained in Cyprus in Turkey without the hassle of Orthodox approval.
There's been a lot of push to remove the lawmaking capacity of the Rabbinate, but as the Ultra-Orthodox population grows, so does support for Israeli's theocratic trappings.
Unknown Soldier
Member
So what you're saying is, just as Hillary supporters like to throw out accusations of sexism as an all-purpose accusation to stifle criticism of Hillary, Israel supporters like to throw out accusations of anti-Semitism as an all-purpose accusation to stifle criticism of Israel?
You know what, you're absolutely right.
There is more criticism of Israel in the US than of China, Saudi Arabia, and Turkey because the US gives Israel billions of dollars of military aid every year for free. We don't give China, Saudi Arabia, or Turkey free money every year to buy our top-end military hardware. Hell, we don't even sell our best military hardware to those countries. Israel has always received special treatment by the US ever since it's founding, that's why it gets specifically targeted for criticism. I'm not specifically up to date to what Israel receives compared to other countries but I would not be surprised if Israel gets access to things that even our NATO allies, hell even members of Five Eyes (which Israel is NOT a member of), do not have access to.
The racist xenophobic sexist guy promising trade wars and likely also supports Israel the same if not more then Clinton trump?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, so much for a "strong character" then if she's saying those things just to get more votes or to keep herself afloat in the election.
In many ways, that is even more pathetic. Although I guess politics is indeed a world where hypocrites can truly thrive.
theignoramus
Member
Probably because she has the second highest unfavorable rating of a presidential candidate since the question was put to a poll.
Yes, that Iran deal was certainly business as usual on the policy front in relation to Israel.
Aaronrules380
Member
I mean, like it or not this is how the world works. You literally can't become the president of the US without doing stuff like that. Honestly, I'm a realist, so I'd rather take the easiest, least risky route that doesn't actually hurt anyone to achieve my goals, rather than stick unfailingly to a bunch of high minded ideals that will ultimately get me nowhere, and stop me from achieving anything
In office Obama didn't fawn over Israel like this, and he set the stage for a more distant US/Israel relationship. All Hillary had to do was to continue his direction. There's a ton of shit that Israel does that's extremely unpalatable. Younger liberals see this, and are generally not coming down on the side of Israel. In fact, I bet the majority of Americans support a two-state solution?
Israel is a bad ally with a great lobby. They don't deserve the level of support that we give them. It's a shame that Hillary is too much of a puppet to acknowledge this.
We actually do give substantial military aid to Turkey, which they mostly use to kill Kurdish activists. And while we don't give Saudi Arabia any regular aid, we've been selling our weaponry to them for decades. Again, much of this weaponry is used to kill civilians in Yemen.
You're correct that we should be more withholding with fiscal and military aid to Israel, especially as the Likud party refuses to adopt a more liberal foreign policy toward the Palestinians.
Aaronrules380
Member
The point is that every candidate says this stuff to get elected, because the people for whom this is an issue that can actually effect their vote are overwhelmingly of the "support Israel unconditionally" camp. And again, why ignore that Hilary Clinton was Secretary of State (The cabinet position in charge of foreign affairs) under Obama while he was in office?
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