Sho_Nuff82
Member
Obama and Rand Paul.
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Hillary: Must elect "a president with a deep, personal commitment to Israels future"
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Obama and Rand Paul.
Not exactly. He has a much more diplomatically fair approach to it, instead of blind support. He's not afraid to speak about the other side, nor draw as much attention to the occupied territories, which in this area of US politics, likely ruffles some feathers.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Not giving Israel a complete free out of jail card that absolve all of their responsibilities?
The "everyone's doing it" and "I don't blame her" rhetoric is just weak. She's about to become the leader of a country whose policy in Israel-Palestine conflict can affect millions upon millions of innocent people. You'd *think* people, especially those calling themselves "progressive" or whatever, can and should be expected to expect more out of her.
But apparently not. It's okay because "everyone is doing it."
Neither of those are candidates anymore. Unfortunately, in the case of the former.
Tesseract
Banned
You gotta play the game, bro. House of cards and shit, you know?
Aaronrules380
Member
So can you explain what these "worst human rights violations" in our time that Israel has commited are? Especially when you compare to stuff done by groups like ISIS (and yes, they aren't a nation, but you don't need to be a nation to commit human rights violations) North Korea, or even genocides like Sudan? I'm not going to claim that Israel is perfect, or that they haven't done some incredibly shady shit, but I'm genuinely curious what these "worst human rights" violations are
andythinkpad
Member
Fuck you too Hilary.
SenorArdilla
Member
Yeah. I'm still uncomfortable about her calling Iran our "enemies."
irfaanator
Banned
don't all candidates kiss up to AIPAC? If that's true, just shows how bad the influence is
Iranian reliability aside, Hilary has repeatedly called for further sanctions against Iran.
I can't think of a worse successor to Obama's initiative of normalizing US-Iranian relationship than her.
If Iran has doubt in the back of their mind, akin to those of Ukraine, then I can't really fault them.
Oh my god, this further cement my negative impressions of her.
D:
Out of curiosity, what's Bill Clinton's stance on this matter?
Hellwarden
Member
Honestly, this is pretty expected of her. But people want to believe Hillary will shy away from her hawkish ways as President.
That's why it's disappointing.
Ah, sorry, should have mentioned besides Obama.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Who are you voting for who is anti Israel? Just curious?
You just absolved or diminished Israel's actions by comparing it to ISIS (lol), and then completely ignored the rest of my post, which briefly outlined some of those very human rights violations. Or is the mass displacement, land theft, starvation, imprisonment, oppression and abuse of thousands, hundreds of thousands or in some instances even millions of people, not enough for you?
Have you? Obama and Bibi acting frosty to each other has done fuck all on a policy level.
It's not that this is the expected position for Hillary to take, it's the expected position for any American president to take.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
We'll be dead and gone before that happens, homie..
Aaronrules380
Member
I never said they didn't commit human rights violations. I argued you were being hyperbolic in your claims that they're commiting some of the "worsr human rights violations in modern times"
I agree but
THERE IS NO BETTER ALTERNATIVE IN THIS RACE
Bernie is pro-Israel. Trump is pro-Israel. Trump is so pro-Israel he will make it his mission to cancel the Iran deal, weaken the UN, and move the American embassy to Jerusalem. Read or watch his speech today; if you don't like Hillary's words in the OP, you're gonna really hate what he had to say.
Again I cannot reiterate enough my disgust with the OP for the dishonest and thinly disguised boosterism of Trump who sucked more Netanyahu dick today than anyone else in the race. He washed those Israeli balls even better than Ted Cruz. And yet the thread that gets posted is focused on smearing Hillary? The agenda could not be more obvious.
This is why Bernie needs to drop out before his deranged supporters completely shift over to Trump.
Has there ever been a logical explanation given for our bending over to Israel for seemingly everything?
Israel must be giving us something back in return that is pretty damn important and it obviously it is not protecting democracy or whatever the PR message is because we clearly never gave a fuck about that before.
Israel must be giving us something back in return that is pretty damn important and it obviously it is not protecting democracy or whatever the PR message is because we clearly never gave a fuck about that before.
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
At least Obama has shown some unexpected stance towards Israel, his civilian-killing drones notwithstanding.
Gaza is the world's largest open-air prison with millions upon millions trapped inside plus basically everyone except the US has universally stated the illegality of the settlements that Israel is pursuing and you're *still* confused about what exactly Israel has done?
OH NO, LOOK AT THAT DIRECTION GUYS! THERE"S ISIS! LET'S IGNORE ISRAEL AND NOW EVERYONE CAN FOCUS ON ISIS!
NullPointer
Member
Anti-Israel? Is that the only alternative?
Aaronrules380
Member
Having a voice in the international community that will almost always agree with us on any issue is a pretty big thing politically
The Albatross
Member
They have been personally adversarial, but policy has remained the same. Richard Nixon and Golda Meir were personally adversarial as well, and yet, the US came to the aid of Israel in the Yom Kippur War (although, the US later prevented Israel from destroying Egypt's army when they had defeated them)
Americans like Jews more than Arabs?
Not "protecting democracy," but obviously it's in the U.S. government's interests to help bolster a (kind of?) pro-American country in a largely anti-American region.
The Albatross
Member
Yes, there have actually been thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of logical explanations for US' support of Israel. The latest seems to be linked in the OP:
http://time.com/4265947/hillary-clinton-aipac-speech-transcript/
But the general consensus of this thread and basically all others is that "Fuck Israel and Hillary Can Fuck Off" is taken as a "logical explanation for why the US should not support Israel," while Clinton's well articulated reasons for why the US should continue to support Israel is reduced to "Hillary sucking Israeli cock again."
Aaronrules380
Member
I'm not in favor of the settlements. And I don't know much about Gaza, so can you explain why it's so bad so I can understand.
But my point wasn't just ISIS, or that Israel isn't doing shitty things. My point was that you're saying Israel is one of the world's worst and ignoring countless other countries and organizations who are doing much shittier things IMO, but get far less attention
Gordon Shumway
Banned
You know what I mean. It's that stupid phrasing game. Pro-life. Pro-Israel. Anything else is anti by default..
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Are you sure it's the US that can say that instead of Israel?
There's probably thousands of articles about this already on the Internet. Google is your friend, knock yourself out.
Who it is that we're ignoring in favor of "our" "concentrated attack" on Israel? And even so, we can't say anything bad about Israel if we're not saying anything bad about any other things? You can't say murder is bad when you're not saying smoking is bad?
Aaronrules380
Member
It's not, but if you don't think there are any sort of implicit agreements behind the support the US is giving Israel than you're ignoring both logic and a long history of political decisions
I agree, and here's my email to the campaign (to save other Bernie supporters the trouble):
Daniel B· said:
CrocMother
Banned
Israel's voice doesn't carry much weight in the international community. If anything they make us look bad.
StickSoldier
Member
Ugh, and my dislike further increases for Hilary. Why can't their be someone better to vote for..? 
I don't want her as president for anything other than Trump not being in there. Damn fucking shame this country has people of this caliber actually running for president.
I don't want her as president for anything other than Trump not being in there. Damn fucking shame this country has people of this caliber actually running for president.Gordon Shumway
Banned
Wish this happened tomorrow so I could say "It was a Tuesday.."
Slowly colonising an entire other state by force, displacing millions of innocent people (Eg leaving them homeless and without anything), imprisoning thousands without due process, oppressing millions to inflict intentional starvation, suffering and subjugation, giving minority migrants birth control medicine without their knowledge in order to control their population, having apartheid rules and laws, carrying out acts of military aggression that have killed hundreds of thousands of innocents, action that is not only gravely disproportionate, but often based on false or misguided notions, claims or evidence, and even going as far as taking out UN convoys, hospitals, shelters etc, and so on and so on. None of these count as some of the worst human rights violations of our time?
Suikoguy
I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
It's no surprise, he has a bunch of College Age people as his voters who are less keen on Israel. In his own way he is pandering.
Hopefully that becomes more normal moving forward as the older people pass on, and AIPAC loses it's influence.
Have you SEEN the other side's policy?
Ugh, and my dislike further increases for Hilary. Why can't their be someone better to vote for..?
You would get this with any leading democratic candidate for the next generation at least.
I guess I don't think destabilizing the Middle East and supporting the fucking over of the Palestinian people are logical reasons.
StickSoldier
Member
The next generation after Hilary? I really do contemplate moving from this country sometimes. I'm fixing to turn 28 but damn, the older I get, the more upset I get with the situation we are in.
blind loyalty? Lol. Israel is our closest ally in the middle east. Israel has done plenty of fucked up things, but let's not pretend like we're just supporting some random country just on some politician's whim for no realistic reason.
Aaronrules380
Member
I mean that's shitty stuff, but I still think worse shit happens in plenty of other parts of the world.
And while I don't necessarily agree with the methods, I can understand why Jews would want to create a Jewish state where they compose a majority of the population and can be free from persecution after a long, long history of being persecuted and subject to multiple genocides. I don't agree with persecuting others to do that, but at the same time the Jews would pretty much have to colonize a new area in order to create such a state because they've historically been scattered across many different countries
The Albatross
Member
Aah, so you read her remarks and that's what you're getting from it? Clinton's policy is "destabilize the Middle East and fuck over the Palestinians."
Is Obama's policy the same?
Because they have the same policy. Clinton was executing Obama's policy -- which is also her policy -- while she was his Secretary of State. Her comments at AIPAC today are an affirmation of Obama's policy, which is her policy.
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