I'm guessing it will be the closer of ep1 to get the "OMGERD, they did WHAT?!?!" buzz going right away.
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"House of the Dragon" FULL SHOW AND BOOK SPOILER thread!
- Thread starter jason10mm
- Start date
Trilobit
Gold Member
Game of Thrones was very realistic in its depiction of sexism, greed, etc. that was part of life in medieval times. I have a hard time believing that racism isn't also a part of the HotD universe. In GoT each region had very distinct ethnical differences, so it was rather jarring that it wasn't the case in this show.
Having racism in the show wouldn't mean the viewers enjoy it just as viewers don't enjoy sexism and bigotry, but the previous show set the bar for the kind of horrible people that inhabit its world, so it breaks the illusion to have such progressive and including Valyrians.
Having racism in the show wouldn't mean the viewers enjoy it just as viewers don't enjoy sexism and bigotry, but the previous show set the bar for the kind of horrible people that inhabit its world, so it breaks the illusion to have such progressive and including Valyrians.
We are just gonna have to accept the casting, even if it breaks the plot with Rhaenyra and Strong. Doesn't really matter, most of the Velaryions are doomed anyway.
GRRM had a few non-westerosi characters and they seemed to fit in all right. Certainly got less grief than Brianne of Tarth or Jon for being a bastard. Guess the class system, followed by nationality and paternal lineage, kinda trumps race in this type of system anyway.
Yeah, I'm debating doing this just to be able to keep characters and actors straight but not sure I'll have the time. Shouldn't be too hard to get back into it though, I may just watch the last 2 eps of S1. I wonder if they will do any kind of time jump from S1-s2, some of the kid actors will look quite different otherwise but I suppose the main ones were late teens/young adult actors anyway so it probably doesn't matter.
I just hope eye-patch Aegon has been pounding protein shakes and hitting the gym these past 2 years so he looks the proper brute. Doubt Matt Smith will do the same but oh well, that's what padded armor is for
Eh, that was a waaaaay tamer version of Blood and Cheese than I was expecting. Guess since they never had Maelor they sorta wrote themselves in a corner but I think they could have made it a far more stressful encounter with Alicent there was well like she should have been.
We get to see Alyn though, making him bald to hide his, presumably, white hair was clever. He is of course twice the age he should be and I bet his brother, Addam, won't be the dragonrider, Alyn will take Seasmoke (I think) instead. I hope they keep him a bastard of Corlys.
We get to see Alyn though, making him bald to hide his, presumably, white hair was clever. He is of course twice the age he should be and I bet his brother, Addam, won't be the dragonrider, Alyn will take Seasmoke (I think) instead. I hope they keep him a bastard of Corlys.
Yeah, I thought we would power through the Battle of the Burning Mill as well as Blood and Cheese, probably get that battle next ep.
I liked the talk with Stark, no mention of sending up a Targaryen daughter that I recall, but early mention of the 2000 "greybeards" the Winter Wolves, was nice.
I am curious where the prophecy talk stuff is going. I must be blanking it out of the latter seasons of GoT, or maybe they have potential spin-offs where it will come into play (Dunk and Egg stuff???)
I added our poor Jaehaerys' death and truncated the tree to focus on the show. I need/make to find a good one with pictures of the show characters just to make it a little easier tracking who is who. I'm still holding out hope that we get Maelor or Daeron (though I guess he would be a Cole bastard unless Alicent can spin him as a late "gift" from her dying husband). Maelor gets such a tragic end, be a shame to skip over it entirely, but Daeron is kinda critical to the later days of the war, so I'm still surprised that he doesn't seem to exist.
This article suggests that he DID exist in the show, mentioned only by dialogue, but I can't imagine they will summon him out of the Aether now.
Who is Daeron Targaryen and why was he cut from 'House of the Dragon' season 1?
Is the Targaryen family tree even bigger than we all thought?
I did notice that the Rhaenyra actress slimmed down a little instead of fattening up like in the book. Gotta get ready to compete with those Alicent sex scenes I guess
All right, main news for this ep is we got confirmation that Daeron DOES exist! Yay! But no Maelor, so far anyway, which is already raising issues since Now King Aegon II has no male heir, so he either does what Viserys did (and what started this whole mess) and proclaim his daughter Jaehaera, which seems unlikely as Rhaenyra would POUNCE on that, or Aemond is actually the heir now, which would drastically curtail his ability to run off to fight like he does in the books. I'm hoping Aegon II knocks up Helaena for S3 but seems unlikely.
Anyway, we get a nice version of Arryk and Erryk fighting, more Mushrooms version I think, with the added touch of not knowing who exactly lived, only to fall on their sword. Most think it was Erryk (Rhaenyras Queensguard) but I think it's possible it was Arryk, who knew he had no chance to get at the queen with Ser Mormont(?) there, so chose suicide instead.
Aegon hangs the ratcatchers, and having Cheese as one of them is a nice twist, as it shows he WAS kinda justified in doing it. 20 innocent men hanged to get one assassin is probably a an acceptable kill ratio for a drone strike authorization, TBH.
No battle of the Burning Mill or Daemon taking Harrenhall, so his storming off from Rhaenyra's service is going to lead to that, I suppose? Also interesting that they have Baela ride off on Moondancer, though the text says the dragon was too small to bear her.
Now that Cole is Hand we should get the battle we've been waiting for, and I'll spoiler this for anyone following along that doesn't want a significant future event revealed Rhaenys versus Aegon and Aemond, with her death and Aegon being grievously wounded (which is why I think Maelor has just been deleted from the show). Lets hope so, some action would be nice.
nkarafo
Member
One thing i noticed in these first 2nd season episodes is the lack of dragon roaring. There are very few dragon shots so far, sure, but you don't see them roar at the camera (or anywhere really) like you would in season 1 or GOT. As if the directors actually got tired of this overused trope and scaled it back a bit? I hope so because i always cringe at it.
Oh, I think it's coming. With all the dragon on dragon action I'm sure that shot will be used a half dozen times at least.
I just skimmed through F&B trying to figure out, with just 6 eps left this season and only one more season to go (this was confirmed, I think), where we might end s2. At the pace they are going they must be planning just one big battle for ep 7, which will very likely be the one with Lady Rhaenys dying. Perhaps they will off her earlier and save ep7 for Daemon and Aemonds fight, then end ep8 with Rhaenyra taking King's Landing. S3 could deal with all the usurpers and dragonseed fighting each other, but I doubt they will want to have all these new characters, which is probably why we are getting so much of Addam and Alyn now, as well as Mysaria, since they become more important once she is there.
No, not that I recall. There is a TON of salacious sex stuff during this period (mostly from the very lewd Mushroom) but Good Queen Alicent isn't often a participant (other than the heretical allegations that she slept with King Jaehaerys as a child or with King Viserys BEFORE Queen Aemma died in childbirth, typical Mushroom prattle). From what I recall and after a quick skim through the texts, Alicent is not often depicted using sex as a weapon or tool other than when she was put in front of Viserys as a girl. Rhaenyra was the ho-bag of this story, something strangely excised from most of the show.
I went through the entire book looking at every mention of Larys (hooray for kindle search!
and he has really no sexual allegations against him at all. Cunning and treachery, yes, but no foot fetish thing. He is almost unique in this respect, actually. So it's purely a show thing, but it works IMHO.
Hooo boy, really going off script now. I'll have to dissect it more later, but needless to say sending Rhaena, Joffrey and the young boys Viserys, and Aegon III to the Eyrie instead of on the Gay Abandon ship to Pentos is a big change. Though I guess they can still make that trip later. Joff and Rhaena do go to the Vale (after Jace wins it with his tongue work but the younger kids are gonna have to be sent off by ship at some point I think.
Nice to see a bit of Alys Rivers at Harrenhall.
but the younger kids are gonna have to be sent off by ship at some point I think.Nice to see a bit of Alys Rivers at Harrenhall.
So there are some questions in the "no book spoiler thread" about the eggs being sent to the Vale (with Joff, Rhaena, Aegon (III), and Viserys beingthe same 3 that Dany gets in GoT.
This is not likely the case. There were ANOTHER three eggs, stolen MUCH earlier in 53 AC (we are around 128ish AC in the show) by Lady Elissa Farman, handmaid to Queen Rhaena (sister to the first King Jaehaerys) and sold in Braavos to fund her new life. There is a minor squabble by the Targs with Braavos over this, but they were never recovered.
The eggs sent to the Vale are not mentioned much, but one does hatch, giving Rhaena the dragon Morning, so they clearly can not be the 3 Dany gets later.
This is not likely the case. There were ANOTHER three eggs, stolen MUCH earlier in 53 AC (we are around 128ish AC in the show) by Lady Elissa Farman, handmaid to Queen Rhaena (sister to the first King Jaehaerys) and sold in Braavos to fund her new life. There is a minor squabble by the Targs with Braavos over this, but they were never recovered.
The eggs sent to the Vale are not mentioned much, but one does hatch, giving Rhaena the dragon Morning, so they clearly can not be the 3 Dany gets later.
All right all right all right, the dance is moving! Team Velaryon takes another L (really, sticking with Rhaenyra is REALLY hurting them). We have Hugh Hammer, Addam (of Hull and his unsuccessful dragonrider bro Alyn), and now Ulf (the White) as introduced characters. King Aegon took a tumble, not really sure why they are being coy with whether or not he survives, but anything for a cliffhanger, I guess. I kinda like the idea that Aemond would let Aegon test Rhaenys first, though I think him outright blasting Aegon was a bit much. Having Rhaenys be sorta cool with Corlys' by-blows was waaaaaaay out of character I think though, but it seems like that was a long time ago, given Alyns age. His actor is 31, Addams is like 26, so much older than the book characters but probably a wee bit younger than Laenor/Laena would be in the show had either lived/stuck around soooooo, infidelity I guess, when she was stuck at home raising babies no less.
Still not sure where the prophecy stuff is going, it has to be a buries set-up for another potential spin-off, likely the "Aegons Conquest" that is in development. "10,000 ships" based on Nymeria creating Dorne 1000 years earlier, seems unlikely (both to actually get made and to have a Ice and Fire tie in). Bloodmoon is tanked, the Jon Snow spin-off is as well, and the most likely to see the light of day, "Dunk and Egg", shouldn't need much prophecy nonsense IMHO.
It may be of interest to sum up the state of the dragon arsenal. There is a nice 1 pager in "World of Ice and Fire", I'll summarize it.
The Green dragons: Aegon/Sunfyre; Aemond/Vhagar; Daeron/Tessarion; Jaehaera/Morghul (too young); Jaehaerys/Shrykos (too young, and now riderless)
The Black Dragons: Rhaenyra/Syrax (really big); Daemon/Caraxes; Jacaerys/Vermax; Lucerys/Arrax (both now dead); Joffrey/Tyraxes (young but ridable); Aegon the Younger/Stormcloud; Rhaenys/Meleys (now both dead); Baela/Moondancer (very young but ridable);
then the riderless ones: Silverwing (Queen Alysannes dragon, now semi-feral), Seasmoke (formerly ridden by Leanor); Vermithor (King Jaehaerys dragon); and the three feral dragons, Sheepstealer, Grey Ghost, and The Cannibal.
So even with Meleys and Arrax dead, the Greens are at a significant disadvantage with Sunfyre also wounded. They really just have Vhagar now, unless Daeron shows up. The only real thing stopping the Blacks from swarming Vhagar is that anyone killed is immediate kin.
The Green dragons: Aegon/Sunfyre; Aemond/Vhagar; Daeron/Tessarion; Jaehaera/Morghul (too young); Jaehaerys/Shrykos (too young, and now riderless)
The Black Dragons: Rhaenyra/Syrax (really big); Daemon/Caraxes; Jacaerys/Vermax; Lucerys/Arrax (both now dead); Joffrey/Tyraxes (young but ridable); Aegon the Younger/Stormcloud; Rhaenys/Meleys (now both dead); Baela/Moondancer (very young but ridable);
then the riderless ones: Silverwing (Queen Alysannes dragon, now semi-feral), Seasmoke (formerly ridden by Leanor); Vermithor (King Jaehaerys dragon); and the three feral dragons, Sheepstealer, Grey Ghost, and The Cannibal.
So even with Meleys and Arrax dead, the Greens are at a significant disadvantage with Sunfyre also wounded. They really just have Vhagar now, unless Daeron shows up. The only real thing stopping the Blacks from swarming Vhagar is that anyone killed is immediate kin.
nkarafo
Member
I really didn't like the way Meleys/Rhaenys died. She survived the initial fight and only Sunfyre was either killed or wounded along with the enemy king himself. So the day was won and then some because as far as she could tell, the opposition just lost a dragon or at least rendered unable to fight and maybe their king as well. But instead of taking the win and leave to fight another day, she decided to sacrifice her dragon (the strongest dragon the blacks had i might add) for absolutely no reason at all because obviously she had no chance beating Vhagar 1 vs 1. So she was just stupid or what?
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Gp1
Member
House of the dragon and its bad battle decisions. No, she had to go back to crash and burn on top of the castle walls.
Rhaenys accomplished everything she could in the battle, just retreat or at least take Aemond away from the battlefield. Green infantry resolve was already broken enough to attack the castle walls without using Aemond to burn the entire thing to the ground which would further weakens its cause.
At least her sacrifice greatly weakens the Black. A well done Anakin's style King and one less dragon (Sunfyre is probably "out of comission" or at least riderless). Tactical victory for the Green, strategic victory for the Blacks.
At least it was a good episode.
edit. Isn't Rhaenyra ate by his "brother dragon" as Joffrey told us in GOT?
That implies that Aegon and the dragon survived the battle to some extent.
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Werewolf Jones
Member
Is there still hope for Daeron to appear or you think HBO just fucked him off?
They mentioned him a few times, so I'm guessing season 3. Maelor (aegon and Helen's second son) seems to be the only one completely removed from the show.
I'm kinda curious where they will end the show. Rhaenyras death? Aegon IIs? They kinda gotta show the big kings landing riot if they are tracking the deaths of most of the dragons, as well as the big Riverland battle.
Interesting, if a bit boring, ep.
One thing that stands out to me is that Sunfyre is apparently dead. Cole knew well that it lived because he detailed men to feed it in the book, so for him to say it died (and this is echoed by Rhaenyra) is a pretty big change given Sunfyres ultimate fate.
The book also makes it seem logical and rational to appoint Aemond as ruler. And in yet another assassination of his character, the show neglects to mention how Aemond specifically titles himself Protector of the Realm and Prince Regent, not overly wanting the throne himself.
LOTS of bickering about Brackens and Blackwoods, still no Black Aly, when this was something Daemon QUICKLY resolved by taking Castle Bracken and holding all the kids hostage.
Also interesting that they seem to want to look to other Houses for dragonseeds, instead of opening it up to all the smallfolk bastards. The main incentive to get folks to try to tame a dragon was the promise of lands and titles, something nobles already have. And we see that Ulf, Hugh, and Addam are all...small folk. Maybe Nettle will come from a noble house? Or, more likely, they will have all the "Elites" get torched and its the wee ones that rise to the challenge. But the book mentioned queensguard and knights that die in this attempt, so I guess they will get there eventually.
Nice that they foreshadow the dragon riots by having folks say "always thought they was gods, didn't know they could be killed", despite the historical tales of dragons...being killed. Anyway, a nice touch.
I'm curious if they will repeat Aemond burning Aegon II with Addam attacking Jace in the (hopefully) sea battle coming up. We see that Baela is refusing rulership of Driftmark and Corlys is clearly not an idiot and sees the Strong boys as Rhaenyras ho-bagging, even the show had his 'brother' Vaemond die protecting handing over Driftmark to one of them. This is setting Addam or Alyn up to be the new heir, and the best way to assure it is to clear out Laenor's "sons" first. Probably won't go down this way, but it would be cool
One thing that stands out to me is that Sunfyre is apparently dead. Cole knew well that it lived because he detailed men to feed it in the book, so for him to say it died (and this is echoed by Rhaenyra) is a pretty big change given Sunfyres ultimate fate.
The book also makes it seem logical and rational to appoint Aemond as ruler. And in yet another assassination of his character, the show neglects to mention how Aemond specifically titles himself Protector of the Realm and Prince Regent, not overly wanting the throne himself.
LOTS of bickering about Brackens and Blackwoods, still no Black Aly, when this was something Daemon QUICKLY resolved by taking Castle Bracken and holding all the kids hostage.
Also interesting that they seem to want to look to other Houses for dragonseeds, instead of opening it up to all the smallfolk bastards. The main incentive to get folks to try to tame a dragon was the promise of lands and titles, something nobles already have. And we see that Ulf, Hugh, and Addam are all...small folk. Maybe Nettle will come from a noble house? Or, more likely, they will have all the "Elites" get torched and its the wee ones that rise to the challenge. But the book mentioned queensguard and knights that die in this attempt, so I guess they will get there eventually.
Nice that they foreshadow the dragon riots by having folks say "always thought they was gods, didn't know they could be killed", despite the historical tales of dragons...being killed. Anyway, a nice touch.
I'm curious if they will repeat Aemond burning Aegon II with Addam attacking Jace in the (hopefully) sea battle coming up. We see that Baela is refusing rulership of Driftmark and Corlys is clearly not an idiot and sees the Strong boys as Rhaenyras ho-bagging, even the show had his 'brother' Vaemond die protecting handing over Driftmark to one of them. This is setting Addam or Alyn up to be the new heir, and the best way to assure it is to clear out Laenor's "sons" first. Probably won't go down this way, but it would be cool
Man, 2 more eps and STILL no need to update the family tree, WTF???
I find it odd that they reduced Daemons taking of the Brakens castle into some sort of war crime authorization instead. Daemon didn't just sit at Harrenhall, he was riding around on his dragon. but we finally have the players with the Lannisters moving, the Northmen coming down, the Freys allied to the Blacks, and at least a mention of the Greyjoys and the Tyroshi so we should get some sea action next ep with the Gay Abandon and the Battle of the Gullet. Not much about Daeron and Hightower and their battle but I'm assuming they are building towards the big Harrenhall battle, Red Fork, and the big deception there.
The council discussions are, once again, backwards because without Sunfyre, Alicent goes from "wait till your brother and his dragon are healed before you fight" to "oh Aemond, why fight at all?". These women WANTED TO FIGHT, they just disagreed on exactly how, but the show keeps having them say "no fight, no fight" without any real counter-plan besides "it'll all work out", though I guess Mysaria is working on some sort of revolt in King's Landing as a long game plan (and maybe flip the Gold Cloaks [once again diminishing Daemons contribution to that plan]).
I also find it odd that they spoke of Dragonseeds but didn't explicitly bring up "First Night" and Queen Alysannes elimination of it decades earlier. Maybe it will come up next ep when presumably Hugh and Ulf (and Nettles?) get their dragons. Alyn shaving his head makes me wonder if they will give him a dragon (I'm guessing Addam is on Seasmoke, not some sort of misdirection at the end) or at least have him try, fail, then commit to the "salt and sea" instead of "fire and blood" like Baela.
The Vale stuff is interesting, not sure where they are going with a wild dragon in the area. Replace Nettles with Rhaena as a dragonrider? Sunfyre still roaming around and not dead? Who is the little dragon playing with Aegon III (or maybe Viserys). I'm assuming its Rhaenas dragon, Morning, so this wild dragon is unknown.
So my guess is ep7 has the sea battle, loss of Jace and Viserys, and ep8 has Aemond heading out to Harrenhall and getting duped while Rhaenyra and Daemon take Kings Landing, but that seems SUPER FAST for how plodding this season has been, but it seems a logical place to end the season.
I find it odd that they reduced Daemons taking of the Brakens castle into some sort of war crime authorization instead. Daemon didn't just sit at Harrenhall, he was riding around on his dragon. but we finally have the players with the Lannisters moving, the Northmen coming down, the Freys allied to the Blacks, and at least a mention of the Greyjoys and the Tyroshi so we should get some sea action next ep with the Gay Abandon and the Battle of the Gullet. Not much about Daeron and Hightower and their battle but I'm assuming they are building towards the big Harrenhall battle, Red Fork, and the big deception there.
The council discussions are, once again, backwards because without Sunfyre, Alicent goes from "wait till your brother and his dragon are healed before you fight" to "oh Aemond, why fight at all?". These women WANTED TO FIGHT, they just disagreed on exactly how, but the show keeps having them say "no fight, no fight" without any real counter-plan besides "it'll all work out", though I guess Mysaria is working on some sort of revolt in King's Landing as a long game plan (and maybe flip the Gold Cloaks [once again diminishing Daemons contribution to that plan]).
I also find it odd that they spoke of Dragonseeds but didn't explicitly bring up "First Night" and Queen Alysannes elimination of it decades earlier. Maybe it will come up next ep when presumably Hugh and Ulf (and Nettles?) get their dragons. Alyn shaving his head makes me wonder if they will give him a dragon (I'm guessing Addam is on Seasmoke, not some sort of misdirection at the end) or at least have him try, fail, then commit to the "salt and sea" instead of "fire and blood" like Baela.
The Vale stuff is interesting, not sure where they are going with a wild dragon in the area. Replace Nettles with Rhaena as a dragonrider? Sunfyre still roaming around and not dead? Who is the little dragon playing with Aegon III (or maybe Viserys). I'm assuming its Rhaenas dragon, Morning, so this wild dragon is unknown.
So my guess is ep7 has the sea battle, loss of Jace and Viserys, and ep8 has Aemond heading out to Harrenhall and getting duped while Rhaenyra and Daemon take Kings Landing, but that seems SUPER FAST for how plodding this season has been, but it seems a logical place to end the season.
NecrosaroIII
Ultimate DQ Fan
"Race" wasn't a concept until about 500-600 years ago, well after the medival period. Prior to that people mostly attributed themselves to families, tribes, city-states and religious affiliations. But physical traits, particularly skin color were not particularly attributed to these groupings.
There would certainly be stereotyping and prejudice involved, but it wouldnt necessary be ethnic based and it wouldnt be uncommon for people to chang be groups. Going further back into antiquity, for example Greeks would say there are two types of people: Greeks and Barbarians. But Barbarians could become Greeks if they adopted Greek culture and language.
True, how you look was much less important to how you ACTED..But there are certainly plenty of examples of black, white, or Asian peoples being singled out for attention just for their look, hair color, size, etc.
When I have some time I'll try to suss out where I thinknthe show is going compared to the book, but at the moment I'm just so disillusioned that they spent an entire season and didn't even get to the Gullet, which seemed like a natural end point even if you can't get to Rhaenyra taking Kings Landing. I think everything after her taking the crown is gonna get collapsed into 1-2 episodes and will basically be "Aegon is a bad man".
When I have some time I'll try to suss out where I thinknthe show is going compared to the book, but at the moment I'm just so disillusioned that they spent an entire season and didn't even get to the Gullet, which seemed like a natural end point even if you can't get to Rhaenyra taking Kings Landing. I think everything after her taking the crown is gonna get collapsed into 1-2 episodes and will basically be "Aegon is a bad man".