Barack Lesnar
Banned
Just talking about the grass.
How big is the power gap between Wii U and PS3/360?
- Thread starter Zee-Row
- Start date
Kataploom
Gold Member
The thing is: The last HD twins can do many stuff that the Wii U can as well but not all at the same time or amount (less particles, resolution, framerate, etc), same for the actual HD twins and Wii U.
I'd just like to see how far could Nintendo push the graphics in the Wii U if they go for 720p30 instead of 720p60. Halving the framerate alone could give them a lot more of resources to use.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
My memory might be fuzzy but I don't remember it having anywhere near the volume or detail of the grassy fields we just saw in Zelda. I know the areas with the grass were nowhere near as large. And anything after, especially open world titles, are nowhere near what we saw in Zelda.
But this can start getting into an argument about unlike things. The open world of Just Cause 2 has entirely different performance requirements than Zelda. It's a much much larger world and they pulled some interesting tricks to achieve it. The pop-in can be quite drastic, and the LoD system has this interesting thing. Within a specific distance above or around trees the 2D leaves and branches always face the camera. From above this can cause the trees to look like ballerina's dancing below you.
The only thing we've seen that Zelda is undoubtedly sacrificing for the world is the poly complexity of Links model. At least in that tiny tiny snippet the LoD system in place seems to have a very far view. It could be a prettied up version of what they'll actually achieve, but if so why leave Link's model so low poly?
I'm getting off track, but nothing I've seen of Zelda is completely out of range of PS360 aside from the volume of the grass. Maybe the lighting, but I really do find RDR very impressive in that regard too.
maneil99
Member
At the end of the day the fact that this discussion needs to be had goes to show just how bad of a job Nintendo did making the Wii-U. If any system deserved to fail in the last 3 gen's it's this one.
Hard to compare nintendo games to PS3/360 games as they all seem to use a very unique art style. Games like RDR, TLOU and Halo 4 seem to have better quality models and environments but it's comparing apples to oranges as having realistic models for mario games wouldn't look right.
Hard to compare nintendo games to PS3/360 games as they all seem to use a very unique art style. Games like RDR, TLOU and Halo 4 seem to have better quality models and environments but it's comparing apples to oranges as having realistic models for mario games wouldn't look right.
vanguardian1
poor, homeless and tasteless
Different priorities, different results. Size, heat, cost (especially with the gametab), backwards compatibility, and power consumption all played higher factors in the console's design than they did with MS or Sony, whom focused more on overall power than Nintendo did.
LordOfChaos
Member
I could imagine a per-game system where developers could toggle a mode that kills the instant access to certain background programs, and allows the game to take up more. That way they still have their extra to work with if they need to add new features later, but certain games can still kill those future features while they are loaded. That, I would love. Going from 1GB to 1.5GB or so would be a large boon.
Doesn't the PS4 use 512MB or 1GB in OpenBSD Flex Memory mode?
This is theoretically possible. Users would never go for it though. They want their features available at all times.
I've been holding my horses to post anything in this thread because ... jeeezzz, anyway here I go my 2 cents:
I'm not a "graphics" expert, but honestly MK8 looks pretty good for me, there is nothing in my xbone that looks THAT MUCH BETTER to my eyes.
It may be Nintendo's art direction or whatever, either way... I'm one of those weirdos still buying videogames because they are fun, not because they meet some arbitrary benchmark of X given numbers of pixels with X given number of FPS.
One thing thou, the hardware price is fair considering the wii pad, and personally I DO LOVE it runs so silent and cold compared to the other 2 noise-heat machines in my room.
I'm not a "graphics" expert, but honestly MK8 looks pretty good for me, there is nothing in my xbone that looks THAT MUCH BETTER to my eyes.
It may be Nintendo's art direction or whatever, either way... I'm one of those weirdos still buying videogames because they are fun, not because they meet some arbitrary benchmark of X given numbers of pixels with X given number of FPS.
One thing thou, the hardware price is fair considering the wii pad, and personally I DO LOVE it runs so silent and cold compared to the other 2 noise-heat machines in my room.
LordOfChaos
Member
youre joking with the inclusion of Xenoblade Chronicles X right? You really dont believe that there are no games on PS3 or 360 that come close to that... ?
Here lets play a game! its called Xenoblade Chronicles X or PS2 game! ready?!
I even leveled the playing field by using a game made by the same developer!
Heres a comparison (ill even use a TERRIBLE PS3 game) of character models from PS3 version of Star Ocean
and heres Xenoblade Chronicles X
Id say the GAP between the PS3 and Wii U isnt as big as you make it out to be...
Thats not to say that XCX wont be an awesome game (its one of the Wii U games that im waiting to buy a Wii U for...) but the difference in PS3, 360 and Wii U isnt a very big one.
Glad I'm not the only one. I bought into the initial gif hype on gaf, the short clips of the mech flying away and the big space monster looked great. Then the gameplay came out, and I thought it looked like ass. Character models, terrain, foliage, lighting, nothing would have even been impressive on the 7th gen consoles, even earlyish in their lives, let alone an 8th gen.
And god, that female guides model is so, so terrible.
I'm sure it will be huge in scope, and perhaps a great game, but pointing to it as any sort of proof of the graphical power of a system is a head scratcher for me.
th3sicknness
Member
X has more to do with the developers style rather than power of the system. From the developers comments on the treehouse feed it looks more like they expanded on the Wii's assets rather than developing new ones for the Wii u.
It's a 2015 title, there's still time to improve on the astethics.
What?
X is a most definite step up over Xenoblade.
In every way, Xenoblade already had immense scale and X absolutely eclipses that.
You can see the early part of the map in the top left corner of that mech gif and that's just two areas of the game so far.
Every damm time someone comes up with a new reason to try downplaying this game.
First it was the world is empty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKKiODpn6Fg (It's not)
Then it was it's not that big
Now it's the character models are all terrible
And essentially everything about it is average by 7th gen standards.... what
Care to show these 7th gen games that do what Xenoblade Chronicles X does with a world as large to back it up or are you going to list off linear shooters and GOW3 (That still pale in comparison) as proof or graphical similarity against an open world game.
Also what do you mean the gameplay came out, did you blind yourself to every single post in any X topic that said it looked like it would play like Xenoblade on the Wii did. You make it sound like the gameplay was being hidden away in a dark vault but in the end Nintendo and Monolith were forced to show the gameplay, you have youtube and you're on GAF. If you didn't have an idea of what Xenoblade played like or didn't think to look up what Xenoblade played like after the general consensus being that it looked similar gameplay wise to Xenoblade on the Wii then that's your fault.
OmegaDL50
Member
All of the games compared to Xenoblade X in those screenshots are entirely comprised of narrow corridors and small environments which means less objects to be rendered on screen, more memory to conserve to the graphics engine.
I would love to see any one of those games not take a loss in visual quality but be the same scale and world detail that Xenoblade X has.
People love to put emphasis on just the character models, but disingenuously ignore the detail of the world size and the amount of things going on at once.
charlequin
Banned
The comparison of the game to itself here is pretty silly (current builds are better looking than the game's reveal, not worse.) But the second claim is pretty absurd.
A typical early 7th gen JPRG would be, like... Enchanted Arms. It's absolutely trivial to see that the geometry, the lighting, the scope of environments, the volume of mobile actors on screen at once -- all of these in XCX dramatically exceed the equivalent elements of Enchanted Arms, or Lost Odyssey, or The Last Remnant, or any other typical mid-generation JRPG.
Thanks for clearing up my misinformation. I personally thought it was a rumor reported on from Foundry, but couldn't commit to the memory.
While Wii U achieves some impressive graphics in it's exclusive titles, when you look into them they're pretty simplistic in regards to actual tech. People like to bring up 3D World and MK8, but those have basic pre-baked lighting, virtually no AI or physics, simple animations. Nintendo's devs are obviously using the systems strengths which are GPU and RAM, but I imagine some games from PS360 that relied heavily on CPU are impossible to run on Wii U, games with advanced destruction like BF and Red Faction, games with simulations like Forza and GT, games with lots of systems running in the background like GTA and RDR, many PS3 exclusives that used CELL to achieve impressive physics and advanced post-processing effects like Killzone, Uncharted and GoW.
Exactly. It's all about balance - Monolith simply prioritizes scale over detailled character models.
Mario Kart 8 doesn't have pre-baked lighting, IIRC there are multiple lights sources everywhere. For the games that would rely heavily on the CPU for ps360 you'd be able to split those tasks between the CPU and GPU since the system has GPGPU functionality. If you've seen the destructible environments in the new Zelda trailer you'd see that that's something the system seems to be handling very well.
th3sicknness
Member
Isn't the wiiu getting project cars and watchdogs? I think how it performs in an open world / racing simulation will at least answer some questions when compared to last gen.
Lord_Balkan
Member
A lot of games still use pre baked lighting. Even UE4 still uses recommends using a mix of pre baked and dynamic lighting. Prebaked lighting doesn't really mean much. Nintendo is just very smart on how they use the system resources, and churn out better looking games even though they may not be as technically better if at all.
LordOfChaos
Member
Which doesn't change my point. As of right now, pointing to it as a display of the Wii Us power is a head scratcher. There are better examples. I'm not dissing what the final game will be.
Way too many people get defensive whenever someone says it doesn't look like lollipops and rainbows. Yes it's huge in scope, but like Skyrim, I just don't find it particularly beautiful for it.
Yes, and I was simply responding to people pointing to the graphics end of the scale and saying it was amazing.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
No offence, but the rest of your post does not indicate you'd recognize 'actual tech' in plain daylight, staring in your eyes. MK8 having 'virtually no AI and physics'? What in your opinion makes the game run then - pixie dust? And of course a portion of MK8's lighting is pre-baked, just like the rest 99.9% of the games under the sun, but that does not conclude the lush lighting in the game. As for 'games with simulation like Forza and GT', you are aware Project CARS is coming out on the wiiU this holiday season, right? Finally, for 'games with lots of systems running in the background', I suggest you take a look at GTA Chinatown Wars on the nintendo DS.
Just made a table about console powers in flops (single precision floating point operations per second).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bKNFp4ecPu9KRojQdsHcE6HVlF-pSuaWTBjfxMYKYr0/pubhtml
Please tell me if I made a mistake in my calculations.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bKNFp4ecPu9KRojQdsHcE6HVlF-pSuaWTBjfxMYKYr0/pubhtml
Please tell me if I made a mistake in my calculations.
lightchris
Member
Just made a table about console powers in flops (single precision floating point operations per second).
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1bKNFp4ecPu9KRojQdsHcE6HVlF-pSuaWTBjfxMYKYr0/pubhtml
Please tell me if I made a mistake in my calculations.
I'm not really sure about those 4 FPU Flops + 8 VMX Flops for Xenon/PPE (I vaguely remember some discussion about that on beyond3d which suggested that it's less than that). Might be worth to investigate again.
That Latte number is speculative. We're not really sure if it has 160 or 320 SPs, but from what I've read about that in the Latte topic here at neogaf 160 seem to be more likely in my eyes.
Anyway, while the chart will be objectively correct (or at least close to), I fear people who don't know how to read those numbers will make incorrect interpretations (as in "it has twice the Flops, so it must be twice as fast!"). But that's out of your hands of course.
I'm fine with the graphics. I do have a ps4 and whenever I play Wii u it's not as if all of a sudden I see a massive downgrade.
There are Great looking games and not so great looking games on Wii u.
Zelda u looks absolutely beautiful. In my opinion that has more to do with the art direction but Wii u is more than capable of producing amazing graphics when in the right hands.
There are Great looking games and not so great looking games on Wii u.
Zelda u looks absolutely beautiful. In my opinion that has more to do with the art direction but Wii u is more than capable of producing amazing graphics when in the right hands.
Pretty much, the game has great IQ, and runs at 1080p 60fps (until proven otherwise). The PS3 and 360 wishes it could run that
.Playstation All-Stars looked like poop. While it ran at 60fps, it couldn't hit 1080p.
Smash is doing that with better looking characters models, environments, lighting, and then some.
What neat for me is, to see the combined CPU + GPU Flops figures for 360 and PS3. They are pretty close, which pretty much reflects how they are in real games.
It's also interesting seeing the Flops figure for RSX, which is not stated or quoted nearly as often as the figure for Xenos is.
It's also interesting seeing the Flops figure for RSX, which is not stated or quoted nearly as often as the figure for Xenos is.
Isn't the new Zelda 30fps?
UnluckyKate
Member
that is because it's the most amazing technical achievement this gen and it's multiplatform. People trully underestimate Rockstar technical team but they prove to be god tier.
Isn't Link being low poly supposed to be an artistic choice, though?
It is astounding how many people have forgotten the first 2 years of the PS3's life cycle. Where it had arguably the worst port jobs ever and pretty much nothing to play (RIP Valkyria Chronicles and Folklore), and people were still unsure of how capable it really was for a multitude of reasons.
The Wii U's library totally shits on the early years of last gen. It really isn't even close, it is also getting Smash this year, so yeah. Not only that, but the games are running great, and we've already gotten a taste of what the machine can do. The 360 also had like nothing amazing to play when it first launched either, and only a few of the games actually looked impressive in that span.
Tbh, God of War 2 had more wow factor for me than 7th gen up to that point. It wasn't till I finished Persona 4 did 7th gen become interesting, with more and more games releasing that didn't run or play like poop.
The Funniest thing is, is that the Wii U isn't even 2 years old yet, lol. Once Zelda U releases this discussion should die for good. Is there even an open world game on PS3/360 that's a solid 720p @60fps?
With Rockstars talent, they could easily port that to Wii U. It is a shame the console is a ghost town for third parties though.
Zelda is not going to be 60 fps.
blu
Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
RSX is not a unified shader architecture, and as such its flops are not easily comparable to Xenos', or to any unified shader desing, for that matter.
Barack Lesnar
Banned
It also released in 2005 (?) and was originally an OG Xbox game that got upgraded for 360. Having similar grass almost 10 years ago tells me that grass isn't very impressive, open-world or not, just sayin'.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
Star Fox Adventures started as an N64 game. And to this day it's the most technically impressive application of GCN/Wii era DX7 equivalent tech. This is even after Nintendo meagerly upgraded the hardware for Wii. Rare of that era is not to be trifled with and where their games started means nothing compared to what they achieved in the finalized code.
This argument is folly solely because of the open world nature. Part of the reason no open world title on the 360 or PS3 has vegetation of that density is because the hardware was either not coaxed correctly (and given how many open world titles released for them that's asinine to believe) or because the hardware couldn't do it.
By 2014 standards it's still rare to see that volume as shown in that small snippet. Not unheard of, but rare. Coupled with what looks like a really impressive draw distance and LoD system makes it impressive. But we're going by just one tiny snippet. But from what I see it's an impressive achievement for unquestionably dated hardware.
Thunder Monkey
Banned
I'd say it's probably both.
An artistic choice that frees up resources for other things.
Supercomputers are also compared based on their Flops. So I think it is a fair comparison but of course there are many other factors to the performance of a console.
The Latte topic also can't decide the final number for the stream processor so I don't change it at the moment. It is also hard to find official wii data because of Nintendo.
The CELL processor maybe a little bit lower in performance but couldn't find a believable source. But somewhere it is stated it has 204 GFlops.
http://e-mpire.com/showthread.php/35387-Cell?p=651525&viewfull=1#post651525
Keep trying to search for official documents to find the final numbers.