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[SigmasonicX]

Since every single thread about voter ID laws in the United States becomes filled up with people wondering how fraud was prevented without voter ID, saying that the voting process would be better off with voter ID, and not understanding that current voter ID laws in the United States are intentionally implemented to prevent poor minorities from voting, I'll briefly explain it here. I am definitely not an expert on this, so feel free to correct me.

Voter registration
This is the key point that non-US citizens seem to miss when trying to understand how fraud was prevented before. In order for your vote to count, you have to be a registered voter. In order to register to vote, you must be a US citizen and you have to be 18 or older on the day of the election (though some states allow 17 year olds). General US requirements can be found here. The proof needed to show that you are a citizen varies state by state, but using California as an example, you do need a driver's license (or state ID card), which you get from a DMV, your social security number, and your date of birth. If you don't have an ID card, then you can still submit your application and you will still be registered, but your county elections official may contact you for more information. No photo ID required. Registration requests are handled one by one to check for any fraud. Once you are registered, then in most places, you never have to register again until you move to a different address.

In-person voting
When you register, you are only allowed to vote in one designated location within your county. You can't go to another polling place and cast a duplicate vote. The way this is handled is very simple: election officials at the polling place have a printed out list of all registered voters who are allowed to vote there, and after you vote, they cross your name off. You just have to say who you are, and no identification is needed at all. If two people claim to have the same name, and the latter claims that someone imitated him or her, then an investigation occurs and only then would more forms of identification be required.

Why would it be bad to require official photo ID at polling places?
First of all, in-person fraud is extremely rare in the United States, and when it does occur, it has a statistically 0% effect on the election. Requiring photo ID at the polling place would have a statistically 0% effect on preventing fraud. It would be one thing if the government offered free IDs to everyone, which would be accepted at polling places, but it doesn't. All of the voter ID laws being implemented in select states of the United States have the effect of preventing poor minority voters from participating in elections, and there is very compelling evidence that this is the intended effect of these laws. Plus, these laws have the effect of rallying the Republican party base to fight against a boogeyman that doesn't exist.

I'll go ahead and quote myself from a previous thread:

"These people wouldn't have voted anyway," is not a good excuse for these laws. There are several people who would have voted, but the process of getting an ID is too difficult, so they become less inclined to do so. Election laws should be encouraging as many people as possible to vote, because the US has appalling turnouts for elections, and these laws do the exact opposite of that.

And since people apparently forget about earlier points unless they get brought up every other post,

Jesus Christ, I feel like for threads like this, any time you try to post a reply, you should be forced to look at select posts from the thread.

As has already been stated so many times, the US does not offer free IDs to everyone, and you do not need an ID for many facets of life, meaning that someone would have to go out of his or her way to get a valid ID. To get a valid ID, you often need other official documents, which may take money and a lot of time to get. And the place where you get IDs can make the process very hard in poor and minority neighborhoods, as shown in my old post that people have thankfully already quoted. And the reason why the ID laws are so complicated and restrictive, seemingly designed to prevent people from voting, is because, yes, they are designed to prevent people from voting!

People asking why voter ID is such a bad thing need to remember that this is a specific implementation that has the following factors:
* You can only get valid IDs at certain places, such as DMVs.
* There are intentionally few DMVs in areas with a lot of poor people and minorities, and those DMVs tend to be understaffed and have short working hours, often being closed on weekends.
* The times when these DMVs are open tend to overlap with when people are working, so in order to register, people would have to skip work for a day, which could deprive them of much needed pay or even get them fired.
* Lines at these DMVs can be very long, with wait times up to 4-6 hours.
* $25 to register may not seem like a lot, but it's a huge investment if that's your weekly food budget.

It's all well and good to say that voter ID laws would be fine if they were state-funded and provided to everyone, but they aren't. The voter ID laws that this topic are about are deliberately designed to prevent poor and minority voters from voting, thus netting less votes for Democrats.

Absentee ballots
This is not to say that voter fraud doesn't exist in the United States, because it does. The problem is, voter ID laws would do absolutely nothing to prevent the fraud that actually exists. Basically, absentee ballots are mailed to your home, and you can then mail your vote. There is plenty of fraud with this system, but likely because a large number of absentee ballot voters are Republican, there has been little done to fix the problem.

 

[RumblingRosco]

Absentee ballots
This is not to say that voter fraud doesn't exist in the United States, because it does. The problem is, voter ID laws would do absolutely nothing to prevent the fraud that actually exists. Basically, absentee ballots are mailed to your home, and you can then mail your vote. There is plenty of fraud with this system, but likely because a large number of absentee ballot voters are Republican, so there has been little done to fix the problem.

I'm asking because I've never heard this, but what percentage of absentee ballots are committing fraud? Also, why is it so strongly leaning Republican in terms of absentee voters?

 

[SigmasonicX]

Well, admittedly, my claim that most absentee ballot voters are Republican isn't as well researched as my other points.

 

[freshair]

Belief in voter impersonation is strongest among Republicans, echoing claims made by elites in their party. Thirty-six percent of Republicans think voter impersonation affects a few thousand or more votes, compared with 20 percent of independents and just 7 percent of Democrats.

It’s important to be clear that there is no evidence of vote fraud at these levels. Judge Adelman’s conclusion in the Wisconsin case echoes previous findings that voter fraud is exceptionally rare across the country. The New York Times reported in 2007, for instance, that a five-year investigation by the Bush administration “turned up virtually no evidence of any organized effort to skew federal elections.” Even after this intensive search, the Rutgers political scientist Lorraine Minnite showed in her book “The Myth of Voter Fraud” that prosecutions for migratory bird law violations were still far more common than election fraud during the 2005 fiscal year.

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/06/11/u...re-but-myth-is-widespread.html?abt=0002&abg=1


It's just a myth perpetuated by Republicans to disenfranchise minorities and the poor.

 

[Hilbert]

I'm asking because I've never heard this, but what percentage of absentee ballots are committing fraud? Also, why is it so strongly leaning Republican in terms of absentee voters?

I don't know if it is true or not about them leaning republican, but a lot of absentee ballots are done by people in the military who are deployed somewhere other than home, so the common wisdom is they tend to vote republican. Basically if you fight absentee ballots you will be inconveniencing military personnel, and that is a political death blow.

 

[Walter White Walker]

We're all vote by mail in Washington. The form indicates they check your signature on the envelope vs. what they have on file for you to make sure it really is your vote. It's way better than having to go to a voting place like we did up to several years ago.

 

[Brakke]

Thanks, OP, good run down. The problem Voter ID laws purport to solve doesn't exist.

When you look at what effect they actually have, the actual "problem" they're set up to target should be obvious.

 

[Purkake4]

So you have to drag your ass out twice? Once to register and once to vote?

No wonder the turnout is so low.

 

[Ol No Bones]

I'm asking because I've never heard this, but what percentage of absentee ballots are committing fraud? Also, why is it so strongly leaning Republican in terms of absentee voters?

Military probably.

 

[Hilbert]

So you have to drag your ass out twice? Once to register and once to vote?

No wonder the turnout is so low.

In a state, you register once and vote forever. You don't register every time a vote comes around.

You can register online in some states. Also sometime people stand on street corners o go door to door and get people to register. Big surprise, republicans don't like that, they think it makes it to easy. Does Acorn ring a bell?

 

[Purkake4]

You can register online in some states. Also sometime people stand on street corners o go door to door and get people to register. Big surprise, republicans don't like that, they think it makes it to easy. Does Acorn ring a bell?

And registering people automatically if they still live in the same place (or however it works in other places) is out of the question?

 

[SecretMoblin]

I'm against voter ID requirements, but opponents need to be careful when bringing up the monetary cost of obtaining an ID. It's a red herring. Most of these laws have explicit guarantees of getting subsidized government-issued IDs, often as a pre-emptive safeguard against such claims.

The laws are bad for a variety of other reasons, of course.

 

[layzie1989]

So you have to drag your ass out twice? Once to register and once to vote?

No wonder the turnout is so low.

I believe you can register over the phone. I actually called this morning to confirm that I was registered to vote absentee and I talked to a representative right away. I'm surprised more people don't do this as it's super convenient. It at least solves the burden of having to trek over to your poll station if you're working and can't get away. Perhaps they just don't know.

 

[Armaros]

I'm against voter ID requirements, but opponents need to be careful when bringing up the monetary cost of obtaining an ID. It's a red herring. Most of these laws have explicit guarantees of getting subsidized government-issued IDs, often as a pre-emptive safeguard against such claims.

The laws are bad for a variety of other reasons, of course.

Yes they do have 'free' govenrment IDs that you dont directly have to pay for.

But they make it so that you are forced to try to get those at very inconvenient hours of the work day and typically open for very short hours or very few places in impoverished areas.

So people would have to give up working hours during their weekdays in order to get these IDs, so in reality, these IDs do have a cost.

 

[Hilbert]

And registering people automatically if they still live in the same place (or however it works in other places) is out of the question?

I don't understand what you are asking.

 

[SecretMoblin]

So you have to drag your ass out twice? Once to register and once to vote?

No wonder the turnout is so low.

in many states you can register:

-online
-via mail
-by phone
-at the actual polling place on the day of voting
-when you get a driver's license


It's not difficult to register to vote, but it does require some proactive work on the part of the voter. Creating more hoops to jump through is unnecessarily restrictive.

 

[Purkake4]

I don't understand what you are asking.

I receive a my voter registration filled out before every election. I only have to do anything with it if I don't receive it or the info on it is no longer valid. I don't have to go anywhere and register again every time there's an election.

 

[Hilbert]

I receive a my voter registration filled out before every election. I only have to do anything with it if I don't receive it or the info on it is no longer valid. I don't have to go anywhere and register again every time there's an election.

You register once, and as long as you don't move you never have to register again.

 

[Purkake4]

You register once, and as long as you don't move you never have to register again.

Ok, that explains it. Carry on then.

 

[Omegasquash]

It's not difficult to register to vote, but it does require some proactive work on the part of the voter. Creating more hoops to jump through is the best way to make sure that low income and minority voters don't get a say in electing our government officials.

FTFY

 

[rokkerkory]

What's the point of having a valid ID to vote when you have to register anyways?

Seems to me it is really to make it HARDER to vote, which is ass backwards in a nation created by voting rights.

 

[studyguy]

Personally i'd be more inclined to believe the dangers of an electronic polling booth getting compromised and affecting votes than in person voter fraud. The potential for abuse in that kind of situation or from say... absentee ballots getting abused seems much greater than the chances of some dude walking into various polling locations and voting a few times more, risking jail time if they get recognized.

The whole ID issue seems gross to me. As others have said a solution to a nonexistent problem.

 

[Hilbert]

Personally i'd be more inclined to believe the dangers of an electronic polling booth getting compromised and affecting votes than in person voter fraud. The potential for abuse in that kind of situation or from say... absentee ballots getting abused seems on the much greater than the chances of some dude walking into various polling locations and voting a few times more, risking jail time if they get recognized.

The whole ID issue seems gross to me.

Election affecting voting fraud does occur in the United States,but it happens at the administrative level. The people that count and return the filled ballots.

 

[knitoe]

It's beyond me why the federal government doesn't give out free national ID cards to every legal adult. I am sure they can find enough money from not wasting it on something else.

 

[studyguy]

Election affecting voting fraud does occur in the United States,but it happens at the administrative level. The people that count and return the filled ballots.

That was basically Florida a while back wasn't it? I can't recall.

 

[injurai]

Election affecting voting fraud does occur in the United States,but it happens at the administrative level. The people that count and return the filled ballots.

Yeah but you can destroy all evidence of fraud on electronic ballots. There was a case in the ohio supreme court of a developer whistleblowing his companies actions. He thought it was mostly researching to combat such instances, only to find they were being developed to be used. Pretty harrowing.

 

[reckless]

It's beyond me why the federal government doesn't give out free national ID cards to every legal adult. I am sure they can find enough money from not wasting it on something else.

States rights and/or thats communism.
(only half joking)

 

[Randam]

So you have to drag your ass out twice? Once to register and once to vote?

No wonder the turnout is so low.

You don't have to register anytime there is a new vote, do you?


And do you need to pay for the registration?
Or is it just the fact, that you have to go somewhere that is to expensive for some people? (gas money, bus ticket)




And if you knew that your neighbors aren't going to vote,couldn't you just use their votes?

 

[Angelcurio]

I must say that i'm surprised by the US voting system. I live in the Dominican Republic, and in order to vote over here, you need an ID card called "cédula", in which you are assigned an unique ID number, which is also used for eveything in your daily life (banks, drivers license, college, etc.). It has the benefit of being emitted by the goverment, so you don't have to pay to actually get it the first time. Since the ID is needed to vote, politicians buy the documents from people they know that are going to vote for the opposite party, so that person doesn't go to vote.

 

[GuitarAtomik]

It's beyond me why the federal government doesn't give out free national ID cards to every legal adult. I am sure they can find enough money from not wasting it on something else.

The same people pushing these laws, are the same people who would cry "tyranny" over a national federal ID.

 

[Makonero]

That was basically Florida a while back wasn't it? I can't recall.

Stop trying to beat around the bush. Tell us al how you really feel.

 

[Lexad]

Military strongly leans Republican so higher absentee.

 

[SecretMoblin]

You don't have to register and time there is a new vote, do you?


And do you need to pay for the registration?
Or is it just the fact, that you have to go somewhere that is to expensive for some people? (gas money, bus ticket)




And if you knew that your neighbors aren't going to vote,couldn't you just use their votes?

You don't need to pay for registration beyond travel costs (or time off work, etc.).

It would be difficult to vote more than once at the same polling place and claim you were different people each time. The procedure is different between states, but for most precincts there is a single voting location that all voters in an area vote at on election day. Polling places have a list of registered voters for that location and will check you off before giving you a ballot.

 

[505zoom]

Yes they do have 'free' govenrment IDs that you dont directly have to pay for.

But they make it so that you are forced to try to get those at very inconvenient hours of the work day and typically open for very short hours or very few places in impoverished areas.

So people would have to give up working hours during their weekdays in order to get these IDs, so in reality, these IDs do have a cost.

These ID laws are incredibly stupid and won't fix any of this so-called "rampant fraud", but I've never understood the logic in the bolded above. Everybody I know that works enough where they would have to "give up working hours", makes enough money to easily afford an ID.

I mean really... If you don't have any off time all week then you are working full time, and probably don't even need one of these harder-to-get-free-IDs.

Am I missing something?

 

[studyguy]

Stop trying to beat around the bush. Tell us al how you really feel.

I started typing out a reply that I genuinely didn't know, then I caught the joke.

 

[JB1981]

Good luck trying to convince Republicans that Democrats are not stealing elections by having convincted felons the world over voting multiple times and bringing in illegals to vote by the bus load. They will write off any existing research into fraud as tained by liberal media bias.

 

[BokehKing]

Walked in this thread expecting to see people talking about how if "we the people" really mattered it would be determined by popular vote and not this ridiculous 'electoral college' crap

 

[The Faceless Master]

These ID laws are incredibly stupid and won't fix any of this so-called "rampant fraud", but I've never understood the logic in the bolded above. Everybody I know that works enough where they would have to "give up working hours", makes enough money to easily afford an ID.

I mean really... If you don't have any off time all week then you are working full time, and probably don't even need one of these harder-to-get-free-IDs.

Am I missing something?

how many people do you know working 2 minimum wage jobs part time just to get to 40hrs/wk?

 

[fatigues_gasolini]

Fun Fact: the biggest case of voter fraud lately was here in Wisconsin and it was by a Republican backer of Scott walker, who is trying to impose new voter ID laws.

htTp://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/scott-walker-supporter-voter-fraud-amnesia

Also, registration fraud does not equal voter fraud

 

[505zoom]

how many people do you know working 2 minimum wage jobs part time just to get to 40hrs/wk?

3 actually, plus myself. Seems that we can all easily afford the 18 bucks for our drivers license renewal every 4 years (I actually paid the $34 for an 8 year license last time).

I just don't see anyone who is working that much needing one of those things.

 

[DERF]

I don't understand why since you have to show your ID already when you do almost anything. Such as buy something with a credit card, see your doctor, get alcohol, and so much more why showing an ID to vote is a big deal.

 

[tokkun]

These ID laws are incredibly stupid and won't fix any of this so-called "rampant fraud", but I've never understood the logic in the bolded above. Everybody I know that works enough where they would have to "give up working hours", makes enough money to easily afford an ID.

I mean really... If you don't have any off time all week then you are working full time, and probably don't even need one of these harder-to-get-free-IDs.

Am I missing something?

If I paid you $1 billion not to vote, would you agree?

OK, if you said yes, then how about $1 million?

How about $1000?

How about $100?

For people who don't have much money or who don't feel as if their individual vote is going to make much difference, that number is pretty low. I bet you there are a lot of people who would accept $10 not to vote. There are already tons of people for whom the opportunity cost alone is enough to keep them from voting.

It's not a question of whether you can afford it. It's a question of rational economics. Is the incremental value of your vote more than the cost of casting it? If not, then the rational thing to do is to not vote. All these extra barriers are designed to do is to make the cost of voting higher (whether in actual $ or in terms of opportunity cost) in order to make more people decide not to do it.

 

[Necrovex]

Voting Fraud isn't a problem within the U.S.

 

[505zoom]

If I paid you $1 billion not to vote, would you agree?

OK, if you said yes, then how about $1 million?

How about $1000?

How about $100?

For people who don't have much money or who don't feel as if their individual vote is going to make much difference, that number is pretty low. I bet you there are a lot of people who would accept $10 not to vote. There are already tons of people for whom the opportunity cost alone is enough to keep them from voting.

It's not a question of whether you can afford it. It's a question of rational economics. Is the incremental value of your vote more than the cost of casting it? If not, then the rational thing to do is to not vote. All these extra barriers are designed to do is to make the cost of voting higher (whether in actual $ or in terms of opportunity cost) in order to make more people decide not to do it.

Oh, I completely understand that and agree. I was referring specifically to the argument about "giving up working hours for a free ID". I just think it's a bad way to make a point.

 

[Randam]

can homeless people vote in the us?

here in germany you need a (fixed) abode, because they send you a card, you have to show at the polling place.

 

[Version 3.0]

These ID laws are incredibly stupid and won't fix any of this so-called "rampant fraud", but I've never understood the logic in the bolded above. Everybody I know that works enough where they would have to "give up working hours", makes enough money to easily afford an ID.

I mean really... If you don't have any off time all week then you are working full time, and probably don't even need one of these harder-to-get-free-IDs.

Am I missing something?

Yes, you are missing something. You're missing that the world doesn't revolve around you.

I don't personally know anyone in that poor a financial situation either, but I'm aware they exist.

"I don't know anyone this would affect" is the worst attitude ever.

 

[CyclopsRock]

You don't need ID in the UK either. If I know someone isn't going to vote, I could easily walk in and say their name. Or if I know they were voting later on. You don't need to register every vote, and I'm not sure how this could be caught and added to the voter fraud statistics. Specific examples aside, I don't think voter fraud is a big problem, but I'm not sure why people are so confident in their numbers for fraudulent votes when the whole point is that they're not meant to be detected.

 

[ezrarh]

Republicans, when they are actually working to solve problems, it's for problems that don't exist.

 

[DragonSworne]

Republicans, when they are actually working to solve problems, it's for problems that don't exist.

For Republicans, this is a big problem. Poor minorities vote overwhelming for Democrats. This is their way to stop them from voting.

 

[EatinOlives]

The simple fact is that voter fraud on an individual level has not significantly affected any election anywhere in the US in decades. Attempts to enforce a voter ID law "to prevent fraud" rings hollow when it's damn clear it's not a problem whatsoever.

If it ain't broke, etc.