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[FireFly]

That game was coming out simultaneous with the Xbox launch. What they showed, minus the last minute tweaking for frame rate that most games get, was what we were going to get. It was set for fall 2020 at the very least, maybe November 2020 more specifically.

No one knows what anyone thinks, we're not mind readers, but given the fact that they were going to release it in that state, they were satisfied enough to push it out the door. If that isn't being done, I don't know what it is.

So they knew the game had issues bad enough to delay it for an entire year or lacked this self-awareness to know what they made was bad. It doesn't matter which it was; both speak to the quality of that studio.

It's ultimately the studio management and Microsoft who set the release dates. It's job of the project lead to communicate to management what the state of the game is and if it will be ready. If this communication breaks down you can have a situation where the developers don't think the product is ready for release and management think everything is fine.

According to Jez Corden that's exactly what happened to Infinite. According to his sources, the Creative Director Chris Lee was hiding the true state of the game from Bonnie Ross and the Microsoft higher ups. So when the E3 showing came, the shit hit the fan when they released the game was nowhere near ready. The result was that Chris got fired and Staten was brought in to replace him. So you can't just assume that 343 as a whole were happy with the state of the game from the decisions taken at the highest level in the studio.

That might seem ridiculous, but think about a title like Cyberpunk that got to launch, was given a pointless 3 week delay, and then arrived in a functionally broken state. Like did the developers of The Witcher 3 think there was nothing wrong with a game continuously crashing and playing at 20 FPS or lower, and that's just their regular quality bar?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

disbanding the team before giving him a chance to really get to work,

You guys are just imagining all kinds of things to defend 343i.

What changed between the reveal and the final release? I ask because it looks pretty much the same. Yes, better lighting, textures, etc.

But I don't see why people who were appalled by the reveal would say the release was so much better. It's better, but still basically the same to my eye.

Keep in mind that the 2020 stuff was done, 343i thought they did a good job and that they ahd something to showcase at E3, and the game would come out in 2020. It was delayed because of fan and gamer frustration, mocking, and memes from the E3 demo which also had some mixed reception internally at Microsoft, leading the game to be delayed with minor to big improvements depending on what part of the game you're looking at. It wasn't delayed because 343i wanted to delay the game to make it better they were forced to.

 

[Hohenheim]

You guys are just imagining all kinds of things to defend 343i.

I don't imagine anything, just stating the fact that Halo Infinite was one of my favourite games of 2021.
Would't mind if the game didn't have any online elements though. Don't care about any of that.

Also, I don't feel the need to "defend" a major game developer studio.

As for the Staten thing, I just mentioned how it would be a strange move to disband a studio shortly after getting proven talent (back) onboard.

The whole GAS thing is annoying though. I don't want any of that. I just want a new Halo campaign every now and then. Really wish that would be their focus.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

According to Jez Corden that's exactly what happened to Infinite. According to his sources, the Creative Director Chris Lee was hiding the true state of the game from Bonnie Ross and the Microsoft higher ups. So when the E3 showing came, the shit hit the fan when they released the game was nowhere near ready. The result was that Chris got fired and Staten was brought in to replace him. So you can't just assume that 343 as a whole were happy with the state of the game from the decisions taken at the highest level in the studio.

This was met with skepticism even at the time Jez brought up the theory, The original rumor before hand was Chris was having trouble dealing with other top studio leads with controlling the game development and left in frustration and I fund that more believable than Jez's story because Chris himself was a replacement for Tim Longo in 2019, Chris didn't leave until October 2020, so you had 3 leads change in less than two years before the game came out, they had to use Staten because there was no one else available. I would also like to mention again that Bonnies clear emotional change when Staten was next to her.

But I don't see why people who were appalled by the reveal would say the release was so much better. It's better, but still basically the same to my eye.

I addressed this above, but you also have to along with the visuals, need to look at the E3 video again and take note of the gameplay that was shown and the performance, that also caused outrage.

That game was coming out simultaneous with the Xbox launch. What they showed, minus the last minute tweaking for frame rate that most games get, was what we were going to get. It was set for fall 2020 at the very least, maybe November 2020 more specifically.

No one knows what anyone thinks, we're not mind readers, but given the fact that they were going to release it in that state, they were satisfied enough to push it out the door. If that isn't being done, I don't know what it is.

So they knew the game had issues bad enough to delay it for an entire year or lacked this self-awareness to know what they made was bad. It doesn't matter which it was; both speak to the quality of that studio.

It's actually that they didn't bother doing market research at all before the E3 demo because they ere so full of themselves thinking they had a masterpieces that they skipped that part and put a lot of hype on the E3 announcement. The teasers they had put out before then show this clearly.

What I figure is they were barely thinking of Halo with this game other than the aesthetics, and though they made a competent base for a multi-year service game and had no way in their bubble to know that the game would be poorly received by gamers at E3 even if they weren't fans of Halo. But the incompetence of the studio is further established after the games launch, since Infinite has come out it's been removed features promised, feature or map cancellations, tons of bad news after bad news, delays after delays, and that's with Staten and other people brought in, and now Season 2 is extended and Season 3 won't be until next year unless there's another delay.

So even he and his ilk can't get the the studio to be efficient or consistent. So it goes beyond management it's the make up of the studio, whether it's the hiring, the work environment, the lack of initiative, or all 3, there's clearly a problem. To consistently fall short of even the minimum results for multiple games since 2011 is what most other publishers would call a dead end, and they will change the studio from the ground up, or disband it and move staff to other parts of the company.

But for some reason people want to make 343i an exception to this rule, for Microsofts biggest franchise which arguably is had the most impact on gaming going mainstream and all the social and cultural stuff have today related to gaming. A franchise that used to sell systems and people would wait in long lines and camp out for 3 days.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

As for the Staten thing, I just mentioned how it would be a strange move to disband a studio shortly after getting proven talent (back) onboard.

Staten has been there since Chris left in October 2020, so he was there during the delay to "fix" the game, and it came out last year in poor condition and ever since the it's been bad new after bad news and he's still there.

So i don't get why you think he was only recently put there, he's been there this whole time and things seem to be getting worse. He's clearly not able to fix the problems at the studio and the two previous guys both left. It's very clear that the studio is in shambles and something has to be done.

 

[lovetalkgames]

I don't imagine anything, just stating the fact that Halo Infinite was one of my favourite games of 2021.
Would't mind if the game didn't have any online elements though. Don't care about any of that.

Also, I don't feel the need to "defend" a major game developer studio.

As for the Staten thing, I just mentioned how it would be a strange move to disband a studio shortly after getting proven talent (back) onboard.

The whole GAS thing is annoying though. I don't want any of that. I just want a new Halo campaign every now and then. Really wish that would be their focus.

To this point I distinctly remember people being happy with Infinite when it released. Now people want to close the studio forever. What changed? The delays? That doesn’t make what has been released bad.

 

[FireFly]

This was met with skepticism even at the time Jez brought up the theory, The original rumor before hand was Chris was having trouble dealing with other top studio leads with controlling the game development and left in frustration and I fund that more believable than Jez's story because Chris himself was a replacement for Tim Longo in 2019, Chris didn't leave until October 2020, so you had 3 leads change in less than two years before the game came out, they had to use Staten because there was no one else available. I would also like to mention again that Bonnies clear emotional change when Staten was next to her.

Clearly there were development problems independently of whatever communication issues there were between the development team and upper management. So I don't see that one excludes the other. In fact the worse state the developement process is in, the more incentive there is to try to hide that.

Staten has been there since Chris left in October 2020, so he was there during the delay to "fix" the game, and it came out last year in poor condition and ever since the it's been bad new after bad news and he's still there.

So i don't get why you think he was only recently put there, he's been there this whole time and things seem to be getting worse. He's clearly not able to fix the problems at the studio and the two previous guys both left. It's very clear that the studio is in shambles and something has to be done.

From what 343 has said, the core technologies needed to deliver a live service game were not there at launch. So it appears the 1 year delay was the minimum simply to release something (likely incurring big tech debt), not the minimum to solve the game's fundamental issues. Is it super unreasonable to think it could take 1 year post launch to fix the engine, plus another year to scale up the content?

 

[Hohenheim]

Staten has been there since Chris left in October 2020, so he was there during the delay to "fix" the game, and it came out last year in poor condition and ever since the it's been bad new after bad news and he's still there.

So i don't get why you think he was only recently put there, he's been there this whole time and things seem to be getting worse. He's clearly not able to fix the problems at the studio and the two previous guys both left. It's very clear that the studio is in shambles and something has to be done.

Since october 2020. That's less then two years. Not exactly a very long time in order to make a solid mark on the company, and not long enough to "clearly not being able to fix the problems".
Give the poor guy at least the amount of time it takes to develop a game.

As for these "problems" I don't really care about them. As long as the studio can deliver campaigns as good as Infinite in the future, im a happy camper. And i'm sure they will deliver even better with Staten there from the beginning of new developments.

 

[6502]

To this point I distinctly remember people being happy with Infinite when it released. Now people want to close the studio forever. What changed? The delays? That doesn’t make has been released bad.

I was happy with the campaign. It was enjoyable up until the corridor fest, which was just acceptable. I was looking forward to a mission select and to a lesser degree - coop. But as someone not interested in the multiplayer, the delays to these features feels shoddy. Like CD Projekt Red , I wont be in line for their next game wheras I got infinite off the back of fond memories of halo 1. IMO the franchise has been devalued by all this nonsense now. It is a shame as the core gameplay had potential.

Delivery is key. The only thing consistent about Halo these days are the complaints.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

From what 343 has said, the core technologies needed to deliver a live service game were not there at launch. So it appears the 1 year delay was the minimum simply to release something (likely incurring big tech debt), not the minimum to solve the game's fundamental issues. Is it super unreasonable to think it could take 1 year post launch to fix the engine, plus another year to scale up the content?

You're chronology is wrong. That delay was due to the reaction by gamers, what they showed at E3 was what was going to release and they marketed at a service game early on. You're acting as if the 1 year delay was only to release a game split in two parts and not fix issues, yet the whole point of the delay was to fix issues. otherwise there wouldn't have been a delay.

Since october 2020. That's less then two years. Not exactly a very long time in order to make a solid mark on the company, and not long enough to "clearly not being able to fix the problems".
Give the poor guy at least the amount of time it takes to develop a game.

As for these "problems" I don't really care about them. As long as the studio can deliver campaigns as good as Infinite in the future, im a happy camper. And i'm sure they will deliver even better with Staten there from the beginning of new developments.

Focusing on the campaign and ignoring everything else (including updates tot he campaign) is why you aren't seeing the problem, Staten doesn't need more time, it's clear he can't get anything to work at the studio in the near two years he's been there. Halo Infinite has been having pile after pile of problems including the recent announcement since it launched, if there was progress you'd have an argument for giving him more time to fix 343i, but things have gotten worse consistently so there hasn't been any progress, in fact, the progress if any has been delayed until 2023. I'm being more than fair and so have people who've brought the game, the last major update was the last straw for many, that was supposed to be the update to finally get the game on track and instead it was the opposite.

It shows in two years he couldn't even partially reverse course on the game. So what's another 6 months going to do? Likely nothing, and I'm sure we haven't heard the last of bad news, whether it's gameplay, content updates to mo or sp, feature removals, or delays, I believe there's more coming.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

Keep in mind that the 2020 stuff was done, 343i thought they did a good job and that they ahd something to showcase at E3, and the game would come out in 2020

I don't think that's accurate, I think that they knew they hadn't got enough time to get the game polished to the level that they'd like, but that they had to show something. The lack of accurate communication from the guy running the game to their superiors sounds plausible in that sense. I think that it's unlikely that a team of professionals, who under other circumstances would be working for another studio, producing content at AAA standard don't have an idea of what's possible and what can be done is a bit of an odd stance to take. The programmers, designers and artists wouldn't have been excitedly waiting to release the game in a couple of months time, they'd have been dreading months of crunch and releasing something that still wasn't finished.

It surprises me that people think of 343 as a single entity, I still contend that the game looked like a work in progress but that the final game doesn't look incredibly different to me, you can sum up the differences between those 2020/21 shots you picked out as better textures and lighting for the most part.

Without real insight we can't say what went wrong, but the final game looks a lot like the "Unreleasable", "shockingly poor" game with some time to polish it, not a complete rewrite - the people who were laughing their heads off at the original reveal should still be able to laugh, because it's basically the same. I rather suspect that people on the inside might say the lack of direction - reportedly there were various directions that were explored before the Halo we got was settled upon as the right direction to go in - burnt through the development time and without the leadership taking the reins with a clear idea of how to hit the deadline, we end up at a game that just needed more time. That's more likely the problem, rather than some great ineptitude of every employee or contractor that have been involved. It seems more plausible to me, at least.

I don't want to defend 343 (I've criticised them plenty, including in posts on this forum today), but at least make the criticism fair.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

You're chronology is wrong. That delay was due to the reaction by gamers,

I don't think you know that at all.

Yes, there was a poor reaction from gamers, undisputed.

But, you don't know what state the game's GAAS architecture was in. I think it's entirely plausible that Microsoft had been misled by the head of Halo Infinite who was sacked and replaced by Joseph Staten. That when he reported in to reveal how much work was left to do, the delay was essential, rather than Microsoft jumping because Neogaf made some Craig Gifs.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I don't think that's accurate, I think that they knew they hadn't got enough time to get the game polished to the level that they'd like, but that they had to show something.

A few days after the showcase for Infinite 343 spend time defending from backlash, and then one week after they stopped they delayed the game in early August, 10th I believe, the Showcase was end of July.

But, you don't know what state the game's GAAS architecture was in. I think it's entirely plausible that Microsoft had been misled by the head of Halo Infinite who was sacked and replaced by Joseph Staten.

This theory doesn't make any sense because Chris didn't resign until the end of October, why would MS wait almost 4 months to get a guy to 'resign" that mislead them? The previous guy also left before Chris, you're trying to find someway to give 343i the benefit of the doubt but it can't work with the chronology.

Microsoft had Infinite Linked to the Xbox Series launch until the delay was announced, which wasn't expected until after 343i stopped defending the game from the massive fan backlash from the reveal. This all happened within two weeks.

think that it's unlikely that a team of professionals, who under other circumstances would be working for another studio, producing content at AAA standard don't have an idea of what's possible and what can be done is a bit of an odd stance to take.

This isn't 343i's first game brother.

the final game doesn't look incredibly different to me, you can sum up the differences between those 2020/21 shots you picked out as better textures and lighting for the most part.

I think you're believing that people like how Infinite turned out and think the difference are minimal so don't understand why they hated the reveal, but people didn't like the game when it came out, some did, but many though it was lacking in content among other problems, and as I said before, the gameplay shown during the reveal was also a complaint people had in 2020. Since halo infinite launched, whatever good will among the few was there was demolished not long after with the first wave of bad news, poor updates, and slow content. Then it got worse, and then it got worse, and then the last recent update happened which introduced several new problems at once, not just one thing.

I don't want to defend 343 (I've criticised them plenty, including in posts on this forum today), but at least make the criticism fair.

The criticism is more than fair, you are given them underserved flexibility for no reason, and almost seem to treat them like this was some first try at Halo and some of these issues weren't already seen before with their previous output.

After the last update that came out I have no idea why you would post the stuff you did. That "update" introduced the worst new for the game so far on multiple fronts, for people who have been waiting and waiting, we won't get new seasonal content until an unspecified time in 2023, current content won't be fixed, features were cancelled, gameplay adjustments are not coming or they won't say when if they are, balancing issues are still there, lack of campaign updates, etc.

 

[Lone Wolf]

Bonnie Ross just retired

https://www.windowscentral.com/gami...ies moves to restructure its leadership roles.

 

[Mr Reasonable]

why would MS wait almost 4 months to get a guy to 'resign" that mislead them?

Presumably because there's a production in process, they needed to find someone to take the job from them, a handover. The guy still works for them, too, so it's not like they kicked him out the door immediately.

Microsoft had Infinite Linked to the Xbox Series launch until the delay was announced, which wasn't expected until after 343i stopped defending the game from the massive fan backlash from the reveal. This all happened within two weeks.

Of course they did, presumably the game would have worked and could be completed, Joe Staten himself said so well before release he'd played it through repeatedly, the game wasn't not working. I would say that it's entirely possible that had the game been in a better state on a GAAS level that they'd have shipped it. For all we know the demo that was shown was running on months old code and the game would have looked the same as the one that was shipped and the majority of improvements took place in the engine, not the visuals.

This isn't 343i's first game brother.

Yeah, and Halo 4 and 5 looked great, played well. People didn't like 5's campaign and didn't like 4's multiplayer, but it's not like they're terrible games. Until Infinite, 5 had the best multiplayer of the series and 4's campaign is really good.

many though it was lacking in content among other problems

I think it's lacking in content, definitely. I was posting about how terrible the lack of maps is and that they've shipped just one 4v4 map in a year post launch. I also think Zeta Halo's environment is disappointingly sparse, but I didn't comment on that. I was saying that the backlash triggered by the original reveal doesn't make sense if people are prepared to accept that the released game doesn't also look terrible, because they're not different enough.

 

[FireFly]

You're chronology is wrong. That delay was due to the reaction by gamers, what they showed at E3 was what was going to release and they marketed at a service game early on. You're acting as if the 1 year delay was only to release a game split in two parts and not fix issues, yet the whole point of the delay was to fix issues. otherwise there wouldn't have been a delay.

Well, as I see it, there are three main kinds of issues:

1.) Visual and gameplay bugs
2.) Unfinished design elements (levels, encounters, weapons and equipment)
3.) Problems with the underlying architecture of the game

If you work on 3.) you're holding up 1.) and 2.), because you need the core systems to be in place before you can build your design on top of them. That's why engine development is the first phase of a project's development. So as you say, given that the focus of the delay was on 1.) and 2.), it makes perfect sense for 343 to neglect 3.). The expected effect of that is you have shippable product that can't be easily expanded because the structure to do so isn't in place. This is the "tech debt" that the Glassdoor 343 reviews are talking about.

And what's the solution to that? Answer: you have to go back and rebuild the foundations of the game, which takes a whole bunch of time. This is exactly what happened to Cyberpunk. They delayed the game 8 months to "fix" a bunch of stuff, then released a technically broken product. And because the streaming and memory management systems of the engine were not up to scratch in the first place, they had to go back in and rewrite them. The end effect is that it took over a year just to get 1.5 out. If you go further back to Fallout 76, which also was a mess at launch, it took 1.5 years to release the Wastelanders update and start to deliver on the original promise.

From Tom French:

"More recently, players have groused about a lack of new content coming into the game and the delayed reintroduction of co-op modes and the game’s Forge feature. A March update announced neither would be ready for the beginning of May, as initially planned.

French is very — very — aware of the complaints. As someone who plays the game every night, he said, he shares them. However, at the moment his team is prioritizing lingering issues from a launch that required completely rebuilding the engine used in “Halo 5″ and expanding on to PCs.

“We always talk about it as like, putting it on the Hudson, right?” French said, referring to the 2009 emergency landing of US Airways Flight 1549 in New York’s Hudson River. “We landed safely. That’s good. Now we’ve got to kind of get momentum going again."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/03/24/halo-series-infinite-future/

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Well, as I see it, there are three main kinds of issues:

1.) Visual and gameplay bugs
2.) Unfinished design elements (levels, encounters, weapons and equipment)
3.) Problems with the underlying architecture of the game

If you work on 3.) you're holding up 1.) and 2.), because you need the core systems to be in place before you can build your design on top of them. That's why engine development is the first phase of a project's development. So as you say, given that the focus of the delay was on 1.) and 2.), it makes perfect sense for 343 to neglect 3.). The expected effect of that is you have shippable product that can't be easily expanded because the structure to do so isn't in place. This is the "tech debt" that the Glassdoor 343 reviews are talking about.

And what's the solution to that? Answer: you have to go back and rebuild the foundations of the game, which takes a whole bunch of time. This is exactly what happened to Cyberpunk. They delayed the game 8 months to "fix" a bunch of stuff, then released a technically broken product. And because the streaming and memory management systems of the engine were not up to scratch in the first place, they had to go back in and rewrite them. The end effect is that it took over a year just to get 1.5 out. If you go further back to Fallout 76, which also was a mess at launch, it took 1.5 years to release the Wastelanders update and start to deliver on the original promise.

From Tom French:

"More recently, players have groused about a lack of new content coming into the game and the delayed reintroduction of co-op modes and the game’s Forge feature. A March update announced neither would be ready for the beginning of May, as initially planned.

French is very — very — aware of the complaints. As someone who plays the game every night, he said, he shares them. However, at the moment his team is prioritizing lingering issues from a launch that required completely rebuilding the engine used in “Halo 5″ and expanding on to PCs.

“We always talk about it as like, putting it on the Hudson, right?” French said, referring to the 2009 emergency landing of US Airways Flight 1549 in New York’s Hudson River. “We landed safely. That’s good. Now we’ve got to kind of get momentum going again."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/video-games/2022/03/24/halo-series-infinite-future/

The issue you aren't considering is that 343i thought the engine was fine and ready, and if they had a better presentation at E3, it's likely we would have gotten the Infinite that was to release in 2020, and the problems with the engine would have been more problematic. Possibly resulting in MCC type of disaster.

Presumably because there's a production in process, they needed to find someone to take the job from them, a handover. The guy still works for them, too, so it's not like they kicked him out the door immediately.

They already had Staten, he's the guy to fix up studios.

Of course they did, presumably the game would have worked and could be completed, Joe Staten himself said so well before release he'd played it through repeatedly, the game wasn't not working. I would say that it's entirely possible that had the game been in a better state on a GAAS level that they'd have shipped it. For all we know the demo that was shown was running on months old code and the game would have looked the same as the one that was shipped and the majority of improvements took place in the engine, not the visuals.

The game wasn't running on anything ol in the demo, 343 had jumped into the backlash the days that followed defending the game as it was before they stopped, then at the same a short time later, the game was delayed, this all happened within two weeks, the gameplay demonstration tot he delay.

original reveal doesn't make sense if people are prepared to accept that the released game doesn't also look terrible, because they're not different enough.

You are making an assumption that most Halo Infininte players think the game was fine, the MP was given flak for the graphics downgrade to keep the 120fps promise for example.

You are also still not considering the fact the gameplay shown at the demo was also an issue not just the visuals.

 

[FireFly]

The issue you aren't considering is that 343i thought the engine was fine and ready, and if they had a better presentation at E3, it's likely we would have gotten the Infinite that was to release in 2020, and the problems with the engine would have been more problematic. Possibly resulting in MCC type of disaster.

1.) If you mean that the 343 development team thought the engine was "fine and ready" please provide developer quotes to confirm this.
2.) Even if you are right, it's perfectly feasible that Staten has done everything reasonably possible to resolve the situation. MCC is a perfect example. If they had brought him in after the game's launch, would the game have been fixed within a year? No, because the issue was that the underlying technology was broken.

 

[ZehDon]

To this point I distinctly remember people being happy with Infinite when it released. Now people want to close the studio forever. What changed? The delays? That doesn’t make has been released bad.

A lot of the people who were happy with Halo Infinite at release aren't the people who've been around the Halo franchise for twenty years. They finished the campaign, played multiplayer for a touch, posted some positive impressions of both, and moved on. The people who are left with Infinite are the ones who've been playing Halo for twenty years, and now their voices are the ones left to be heard. And since launch. the state of Infinite has only gotten worse. These two elements in tandem has altered the discourse immensely.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

If they had brought him in after the game's launch, would the game have been fixed within a year? No,

But it wouldn't have taken nearly 4 years to fix the game.

A lot of the people who were happy with Halo Infinite at release aren't the people who've been around the Halo franchise for twenty years. They finished the campaign, played multiplayer for a touch, posted some positive impressions of both, and moved on. The people who are left with Infinite are the ones who've been playing Halo for twenty years, and now their voices are the ones left to be heard. And since launch. the state of Infinite has only gotten worse. These two elements in tandem has altered the discourse immensely.

That last update announcement has made even the most crazy fans consider leaving.

 

[FireFly]

But it wouldn't have taken nearly 4 years to fix the game.

And we're not even at 1/4 of the 4 year mark right now with Infinite. Season 3 will be 1 year 4 months post launch and after that Staten says we will see regular updates. If Season 4 arrives without a big delay, it will be reason to think the situation is improving.

Even if 343 was replaced now, the new developer would have to get up to speed on the engine, and learn all of the tools and workflow, before they could do anything. Then if the engine issues aren't resolved the new developer would also have to do the same work 343 is doing to fix them. The immediate effect would likely be to create that big delay for Season 4 that 343 were trying to avoid.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

And we're not even at 1/4 of the 4 year mark right now with Infinite.

Already leadership has changed at 343 again, emphasizing my point earlier.

now the new guy Peter, thread on him is up, is a gamer going back to the 90's working for EA, and was the one who finished the fight to fix MCC. It could be his abrupt promotion may be the turnaround 343i needs. let's see what changes he makes before the end of the year.

 

[TransTrender]

Out of morbid curiosity I watched the Halo Infinite 343i 10 Year Plan September 2022 Roadmap Update and without a doubt the studio should be disbanded.
This is embarrassing.

Just LOL.
To even come out with a straight face and deliver a hot load of slimy shit like this is simply amazing.
The best part will be the follow ups in November and March when they completely miss these deliverables.
It's also funny because when they call the March season "Echos Within" I'm getting strong Anthem flashbacks with "Echos of Reality" which is never a good thing to be associated with.

Disband 343i, fire everyone above the line, and scatter the individual contributors like ashes to other in house brands.

EDIT:
Also compare the engagement of this video with the latest God of War trailer.
Halo is dad.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Out of morbid curiosity I watched the Halo Infinite 343i 10 Year Plan September 2022 Roadmap Update and without a doubt the studio should be disbanded.
This is embarrassing.

Just LOL.
To even come out with a straight face and deliver a hot load of slimy shit like this is simply amazing.
The best part will be the follow ups in November and March when they completely miss these deliverables.
It's also funny because when they call the March season "Echos Within" I'm getting strong Anthem flashbacks with "Echos of Reality" which is never a good thing to be associated with.

Disband 343i, fire everyone above the line, and scatter the individual contributors like ashes to other in house brands.

EDIT:
Also compare the engagement of this video with the latest God of War trailer.
Halo is dad.

Well in the last few days it seems that's happening, people are leaving and new people are in charge.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Xbox Studios boss says Halo Infinite's launch was like 'stumbling as you come across the finish line'

"We've got to recover there, so the burden is on us".

www.pcgamer.com

Even Matt Booty had to admit the lunch was doody.

Even if there is decent upgrade in 2023 (months from now) when Season 3 drops, i feel it's likely much too late to see the active playerbase and sales number have a turn around. Maybe they can still make profit off infinite but that opportunity to take advantage of previous hype is long gone. I can't see how they do this for another 9 years.

 

[64bitmodels]

ah shit we're back here again

 

[Ozriel]

http://[URL]https://www.pcgamer.com...stumbling-as-you-come-across-the-finish-line/

[/URL]

Even Matt Booty had to admit the lunch was doody.

Even if there is decent upgrade in 2023 (months from now) when Season 3 drops, i feel it's likely much too late to see the active playerbase and sales number have a turn around. Maybe they can still make profit off infinite but that opportunity to take advantage of previous hype is long gone. I can't see how they do this for another 9 years.

We already had a thread for that. Did you really need to plug your own old thread?

 

[Kuranghi]

Xbox Studios boss says Halo Infinite's launch was like 'stumbling as you come across the finish line'

"We've got to recover there, so the burden is on us".

www.pcgamer.com

Even Matt Booty had to admit the lunch was doody.

Even if there is decent upgrade in 2023 (months from now) when Season 3 drops, i feel it's likely much too late to see the active playerbase and sales number have a turn around. Maybe they can still make profit off infinite but that opportunity to take advantage of previous hype is long gone. I can't see how they do this for another 9 years.

Stumbling?!?? More like:

I exaggerate of course, its not a trainwreck for most, loads loved it even on PC, but for me its still not in a state where I'd want to play it and I just don't care anymore, its too late. Forget MP, I'm a SP only guy and it was a major disappointment on many levels but technical ones most annoying. I'm still thinking about how much wasted potential for an open world Halo game there was/is. On PC they still haven't fixed all the general frame-pacing, animation and cutscene 30fps facial animation issues

Like Sackboy (Sackboy is worse) on PC, it'll probably never be at the level of the console release even years later. They just give up on it because most don't care about these things but it matters to me goddammit!:

edit - oh ffs didnt notice this was so old, I've been away for ages.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

We already had a thread for that. Did you really need to plug your own old thread?

Funny you didn't complain about this that last several times this thread was updated.

This is relevant to how 343i is managing the franchise.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

With Tom French now leaving, 343i has in some ways have had a partial restructure in the last several months, though key influencers that led to the issues surrounding the franchise the last several years are still in place, it is notable that many of those influencers have now "left" the studio. The question is after the Halo Infinite incident will Microsoft gaming (with Phil as CEO) now put a fist down when inputting new staff to replace who left to make sure these things don't happen again?

Or will they continue their hands off approach with Matt Booty just kind of walking in saying hi and then leaving as he's STILL doing now?

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

Who knows? There are big changes afoot such as Staten in, Ross out and Certain Affinity likely having one of the most important releases relating to Infinite with Tatanka. I agree with you Eddie-Griffin the restructure had already started, some big trees felled and others planted with a little more to go.

For me it feels like Certain Affinity are the more experience team with a better track record about to deliver the more "modern and likely important" Battle Royale-esque mode for Infinite, the hands off approach was already there long before the 343 shake up.

 

[gothmog]

Changing the culture is difficult and it's even more difficult when you are doing this slow turnover of leadership Existing leaders basically push back on the change and by the time you replace them the new people are frustrated. I really don't understand why they're doing it this way.

 

[diffusionx]

It would not surprise me if MS is done with treating Halo as an AAA franchise and showering 343 with the resources it has gotten the past 10 years. They just wasted all of it, and now Halo is a firmly B-tier franchise. I really believe MS moved to the A-B acquisition (which, let’s be real, is a COD acquisition) in large part because they realized Infinite was not going to be the ongoing GamePass draw they were counting on it being.

 

[Shubh_C63]

Its sad because we won't be able to see any signs and proof of a better HALO by the next 5-10 years. They might stretch Infinite till Xbox-Next Gen in 2028 where we reset the countdown and hope for the best again.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

It would not surprise me if MS is done with treating Halo as an AAA franchise and showering 343 with the resources it has gotten the past 10 years. They just wasted all of it, and now Halo is a firmly B-tier franchise.

Nah, they'll make 343i a smaller core part of a new game, and have outside studios (Certain affinity) and new acquires studios like Bethesda, Arkane, and id software to make the meat of the game.

Microsoft still has life in the brand, they aren't going to give up on it yet, they'll just maybe possibly finally realize 343 needs to be more of a bluepirnt and support team instead of the main team.

I really believe MS moved to the A-B acquisition (which, let’s be real, is a COD acquisition) in large part because they realized Infinite was not going to be the ongoing GamePass draw they were counting on it being.

I doubt this, because MS was discussing the deal before Halo Infinites infamous E3 reveal, and at that time Microsoft had no reason to believe 343 messed up the game until the backlash happened, they likely didn't understand the state the game was in until during that year delay for Infinite. As the first changes were made then to the team, and then post-release we have seen gradual change at first and now it's speeding up.

It is also for that last reason why I think MS is still going to go heavy on Halo, but use some of their newer studios to handle the meat of the game(s) themsleves. Several of their studios are proficient in FPS or first-person action in general.

 

[diffusionx]

Nah, they'll make 343i a smaller core part of a new game, and have outside studios (Certain affinity) and new acquires studios like Bethesda, Arkane, and id software to make the meat of the game.

I don’t really see how this conflicts with what I said, but I think it would be a mistake to have id work on Halo instead of Doom or Quake or something like that. Yes, it’s gotten that bad, I really think Doom is a bigger franchise than Halo right now. I didn’t say MS was totally done with Halo, just that it isn’t going to be a primary flagship in their lineup like it was. And it shouldn’t be, it’s not that anymore. 343/MS squandered it all.

I doubt this, because MS was discussing the deal before Halo Infinites infamous E3 reveal, and at that time Microsoft had no reason to believe 343 messed up the game until the backlash happened, they likely didn't understand the state the game was in until during that year delay for Infinite. As the first changes were made then to the team, and then post-release we have seen gradual change at first and now it's speeding up.

It is also for that last reason why I think MS is still going to go heavy on Halo, but use some of their newer studios to handle the meat of the game(s) themsleves. Several of their studios are proficient in FPS or first-person action in general.

I don’t remember MS discussing a A-B acquisition before the reveal (which not to be pedantic was during a XSX live show not E3). MS announced the deal publicly in January 2022, so I really don’t think they were going on record talking about a mega-deal in mid-2020.

That said, if MS did not understand the state of the game until the backlash that says a LOT about MS’ management, and none of it is good. BTW I actually agree with you, they did seem like they were blindsided.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

I don’t really see how this conflicts with what I said, but I think it would be a mistake to have id work on Halo instead of Doom or Quake or something like that. Yes, it’s gotten that bad, I really think Doom is a bigger franchise than Halo right now. I didn’t say MS was totally done with Halo, just that it isn’t going to be a primary flagship in their lineup like it was. And it shouldn’t be, it’s not that anymore. 343/MS squandered it all.

You said that HALO will end up being B-tier and that doesn't make sense with how much pull the franchise still has which hasn't completely eroded under 343i. Microsoft will want to try and reverse that if they can given how much Halo makes in gamers, TV, merchandise, and other.

Doom Eternal may seem bigger because it was growing as a sequel while Halo was fumbling, but Halo still brought in more revenue than Doom so to say Doom is bigger than Halo overinflates Doom quite a bit. I think that it's possible it could but Microsoft has a whole infrastructure around Halo with what I mentioned above, along with esports and etc. Doom doesn't have as much reach. Microsoft will definitely try to attempt to save the franchise as a money machine at least once. It's also why I don't think the 10 year promise is going to happen.

I don’t remember MS discussing a A-B acquisition before the reveal (which not to be pedantic was during a XSX live show not E3). MS announced the deal publicly in January 2022, so I really don’t think they were going on record talking about a mega-deal in mid-2020.

That said, if MS did not understand the state of the game until the backlash that says a LOT about MS’ management, and none of it is good. BTW I actually agree with you, they did seem like they were blindsided.

I said they were "working" on the deal since then I didn't say they announced it.

Halo Co-Creator Was 'Pretty Worried' About Halo Infinite After E3 2020 Showing

Weren't we all

www.purexbox.com

As for E3, most of the backlash was associated with it. The reveal showcase drew backlash but much of the quick spread of frustration was further clips/images and 343i's reaction which made things a lot worse and that's when things started getting really out of hand with Halo Infinite and why it's often associated as an E3 event in entirety(both parts). To the point where iirc 24 hours after the LAST time 343i was doing damage control at the end of a whole week of it, Microsoft immediately after that time announced that the game would be delayed.

So I take it that MS wasn't really intervening until they believed they had too. They were definitely blind sided, and when they actually had to be hands-on they started making changes, and when those didn't produce results they started accelerating the changes.

It's clear MS was given a lot of freedom to studios, maybe TOO much freedom to studios, and when guys like Matt Booty are not putting their hands down to meet targets you get not just the problems with Infinte, but also the other delays Microsoft has been experiencing. Some of the acquisitions MS made were in 2017-18 and we still haven't seen a major release form them yet. For games like State of Decay that were hovering around indie status being changed to a AAA game with help from the Coalition, this makes sense because changes were made in the middle of development along with objectives. But for the AA-AAA games this is concerning.

I still think MS should give some freedom but not be entirely hands-off especially if they are going to miss targets. This is something that had been an issue with Phil since he took over Mattricks deals on the Xbox One, leading Phil dragging projects through multiple delays for years until he lost enough money to force cancel them, or drag them across the finish line with half of what was intended.

As the new "Microsoft CEO of gaming" Nadella made out of nowhere for him, he now has much more control than his last two positions so hopefully he will fix this problem, and also make the right decisions to bring Halo back up in perception and status.

Won't be easy though with around 10 years of damage to the brand.

 

[diffusionx]

You said that HALO will end up being B-tier and that doesn't make sense with how much pull the franchise still has which hasn't completely eroded under 343i. Microsoft will want to try and reverse that if they can given how much Halo makes in gamers, TV, merchandise, and other.

I said Halo is B-tier, right now. I don’t know how much pull the franchise has now but where is the evidence it has a lot? Infinite was forgotten pretty quickly, nobody really cares about it, the multiplayer was boring, and 343 can’t manage a live game. Nobody is out there talking about the TV show (which was horrible) or the Doritos or whatever.

Right now the game is in the 20s in Xbox most played, right behind ARK Survival Evolved which sounds about right. It’s not irrelevant, but it’s not exactly relevant either.

Doom Eternal may seem bigger because it was growing as a sequel while Halo was fumbling, but Halo still brought in more revenue than Doom so to say Doom is bigger than Halo overinflates Doom quite a bit. I think that it's possible it could but Microsoft has a whole infrastructure around Halo with what I mentioned above, along with esports and etc. Doom doesn't have as much reach. Microsoft will definitely try to attempt to save the franchise as a money machine at least once. It's also why I don't think the 10 year promise is going to happen.

MS tried to save the franchise once, it was called Halo Infinite, and it was a failure. I don’t think they’re going to abandon the game, they’re just not going to treat it like a massive AAA brand-defining franchise, because it’s not anymore. And yea, I think investing in Doom going forward is a much wiser use of resources.

I said they were "working" on the deal since then I didn't say they announced it.

Maybe, maybe not, without any info or evidence I dunno. According to Wiki, they started discussing the possibility with A-B in 2021, after the reveal, which fits into what I said.

Halo Co-Creator Was 'Pretty Worried' About Halo Infinite After E3 2020 Showing

Weren't we all

www.purexbox.com

So, that headline is just wrong, there was no E3 in 2020, it was canceled. Like I said, MS put on a live show in the summer to show off Xbox first party games and that is where Halo unleashed a giant diarrhea blast across the gaming industry. This doesn’t matter too much, but it shows that even professional websites can get basic details wrong.

So I take it that MS wasn't really intervening until they believed they had too. They were definitely blind sided, and when they actually had to be hands-on they started making changes, and when those didn't produce results they started accelerating the changes.

Well that is the problem, they put out the game to headline this brand new console, when people were hungry for info, and dropped something that really was not impressive at all. It says something about Spencer and his management team that they didn’t spot this beforehand. It’s a big problem. Like, if they can’t see what was wrong with that trailer what else are the not seeing in their business?

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

MS tried to save the franchise once, it was called Halo Infinite

Why would putting the studio in charge of the decline of Halo at the helm of another game be trying to "save" the franchise?

So, that headline is just wrong, there was no E3 in 2020,

You basically ignored what I wrote, read again.

It says something about Spencer and his management team that they didn’t spot this beforehand. It’s a big problem. Like, if they can’t see what was wrong with that trailer what else are the not seeing in their business?

If they didn't know about how the game played and how far below target the were then it doesn't make sense to blame this on them "not seeing" but instead of now "keeping an eye" on their studios and giving them too much autonomy.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

Just wanted to put the word "vindicated" here based on the latest updates/scandals/news that's come up recently. Looks like indirectly, the disbanding may actually be happening, in some form.

 

[Eddie-Griffin]

It looks like the final phases are coming closer and closer, we have seen massive changes in the last 6 months at the studio, and it's looking like Xbox is finally going to stop ignoring the problem and is now asking the fans if it's worth it.

It only took them 11 years to finally do this, but there may be hope for the Halo franchise yet, if they move quickly with changes, damage may be reversible.