clarky
Gold Member
Ah yeah lets give it to the Splitgate devs. How's that game doing currently genius?
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I believe it's time to disband 343 Industries.
- Thread starter Eddie-Griffin
- Start date
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Microsoft never gave the final figures for Xbox 360 but that's not relevant. We have no clue how much Halo 4 sold we only got this from Microsoft for player numbers https://www.gamespot.com/articles/halo-4-logs-116-million-players/1100-6405820/ they never published 9 million copies. before that the only reported number from microsoft stopped at 4 million https://www.videogamer.com/news/hal...million-next-game-in-series-already-underway/ after that they switched to the player numbers above.
The original 8 million number from 2013 came from VGchartz, and Wired made an article based on it https://www.wired.com/2013/08/halo-4-as-comedy/ and then from there that number kept spreading around and people modified it.
No such figure came from Microsoft. The last clear number they gave was 4 million, then they gave player numbers
clarky
Gold Member
I stand corrected, so neither of us know how well 4,5 or infinite have done sales wise for sure.
I will say the install base is highly relevant to how many copies of a game you sell though. 9 million sold on an install base of 10 million is more impressive i'd argue than 20 mill sold on a base of 120mill for example. More potential customers= more potential sales and the easier it is to hit higher numbers obviously. Although you could counter with a game like Halo 3 or "killer app" like they used to say, drives hardwares sales on the flip side, although its been a very long time since I personally bought a system for just one game.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
We know Halo 5 sold over 5 million. We know halo 4 sold over 4 sometime in 2013, that's it.
Halo Reach, Halo 3, and Halo 2 all sold big numbers on small user base relative to what 4, 5, and Infinite (two consoles) are on. Even ODSt sold over 5 million on the 360, so I don't think for this franchise the hardware sales are relevant, since Halo is supposed to moving moving hardware in the first place. I don't think halo 4 got many people to buy 360's i believe most of that game sold to the existing base.
Halo 5 may have moved consoles in the short term, but Xbox One sales fell off later that same year and wouldn't pick back up until the remodeled One S.
I have seen no indication of Halo Infinite improving sales of the Xbos Series consoles, and we know it's not selling Xbox one's, which were already discontinued before Halo Infinites release, so for Xbox one Infinite is only selling to the existing base.
Halo Reach, 2, 3, and somewhat ODST were not just selling millions of copies, but consoles with it. All with less consoles in the wild when they launched.
So for Halo I do not believe again, install base is relevant. If Halo Infinite had enough anticipation and hype, even short term, it would sell well regardless of the install base.
Forza Horizon 5 sold millions of copies, we don't know how much, but we know that it had 800,000 users before launch with early access, and in less than 7 months got over 20 million players. It had 10 million in it's first week, compared to FH4's 2 million. Top game on Xbox Series despite the early install base.
clarky
Gold Member
Good stuff ill reply tomorrow proper as im just about to call it a night. Although i was more talking about install bases in general, my point was Halo 5 sold well enough 5+ mill on console that only sold 50 or so million total. Id say thats pretty good( if we are going with 5 mill sales lifetime which i think is personally a little low of an estimate). A quick google puts it among the top ten best selling xbox one games.(although youll probably correct me on this one as well
)
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Good stuff ill reply tomorrow proper as im just about to call it a night. Although i was more talking about install bases in general, my point was Halo 5 sold well enough 5+ mill on console that only sold 50 or so million total. Id say thats pretty good( if we are going with 5 mill sales lifetime which i think is personally a little low of an estimate). A quick google puts it among the top ten best selling xbox one games.(although youll probably correct me on this one as well
But if most of that was in the first 3 months, that means the game was increasing in sales significantly with the install base, like the others did.
As for Xbox one can't really have an accurate best sellers list when MS doesn't give numbers. For a time Titanfall was the best selling game until they stopped reporting and that was prior to Halo 5 releasing, so games like DR3, Ryse, TF we have no idea what those sold. Xbox One is a lost case for software sales after 2014 unless Microsoft decides to be transparent about it.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
⁶
Destiny's gameplay feels just as good as Infinite and there's more to gameplay than just how responsive the combat is. Things like level design, enemy design, encounter variety, etc are gameplay elements that 343 abjectely failed at in Infinite. While many encounters are designed well, it's the same encounters every time over and over throughout the entire game. You have your bases to take over which have the typical mix of grunts, brutes, elites and snipers ....that's it. An occasional "boss" thrown in the mix.
Trazyn the Infinite
Member
Better product than anything 343i has created, warrior.
Arsic
Loves his juicy stink trail scent
A better halo like game with more support than 343 for Halo.
Keep in mind it isn’t full release yet.
Add in the fact it doesn’t have an established franchise by Bungie to be handed on a plate to them.
If they had the keys to the Halo license they would undoubtedly do a much better job than 343.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
September 1st 2022 update
https://www.theverge.com/2022/9/1/23332738/halo-infinite-season-3-delay-forge-launch-novemberhttps://www.shacknews.com/article/132116/halo-infinite-local-coop-canceled
Forge Mode and Co-Op have been delayed until November, Season 2 will last much longer than anticipated. Local co-op has been cancelled. 343 is considering adding MTX to Halo MCC, partnered with trolli candy for MTX, and marketed the release of a cookbook.
Microsoft is being too lenient here. This isn't Rare where they had a turn around, this is their worst performing studio long term they have ever had. With the most delays and the worst results. Any other company would have done something before this point. Phil, drop the nice guy act, time to get the business done.
Trazyn the Infinite
Member
343i showing they continue to be a massive fucking joke.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Don't be so harsh to 343i....lets wait and see how Factions comes out. Now...if Naughty Dog manages to make a proper GaaS...then yeah.... let's trash on 343i.
CeeJay
Member
But ND can make a hell of a single player game, the GaaS stuff is an afterthought that doesn't need to be amazing. 343 might be able to create a mechanically sound game at its core but are a long way off the quality required in their campaigns and are too shit at hitting deadlines to be successful at GaaS. They have plenty of talent but something is wrong with the studio at a fundemental level.
thicc_girls_are_teh_best
Member
The gulf in quality between Naughty Dog and 343i is equivalent to the gap between the Sun and Jupiter.
If the Factions game turns out to be even a moderate success commercially & critically, 343i might as well be Pluto.
They won't. With iD Software, and soon Infinity Ward & Treyarch under their belt, Microsoft can afford to let 343i continue to be the joke of the AAA games industry. It literally doesn't matter anymore, not even Halo.
When you have those teams and IP like DOOM, Quake, and COD now under your roof, having one child who's the constant disappointment can be ignored and written off.
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Banjo64
cumsessed
What a prophet . When they said they were laying down their roadmap this month I thought ‘this is the end of all the ‘soon’ bullshit and we’re getting something meaty’ - what a fucking idiot I am.
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Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Halo is the face of Xbox and the biggest brand generally (gaming Forza atm) so no, the won't ignore it. They aren't going to let Halo die for COD, it's not even the same audience, although 343 wants it to be.
ChorizoPicozo
Member
Don't make damage control before the game comes out.
I am just going to put this in perspective:
Jimbo said Play Station is investing in GaaS quite agressevly. Like 10 or 12 titles. So, no. It's not and afterthought. This is precisely why it's going to be a stand alone title and not just a mode.
Now. Play Sytation is know for the Highest AAA Quality...people expect the same quality for their GaaS games...yep....Sony is fucked. BUT if they manage to do it. They are going to set another standard in the industry.
And that's is the point.
It doesn't matter if you have all the money in the world, it doesn't matter if you have the best talent in the biz
You need THE leadership to be able to make a "perfect" launch.
Feel Like I'm On 42
Member
They won't let it die but they've let it be damaged and set back pretty badly
Banjo64
cumsessed
About time Rare get some credit for pulling in 30k concurrent Sea of Thieves players on Steam every single day whereas Halo Infinite and MCC are languishing at around 5k.
Biggest brand in name only these days.
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
They probably believed whatever assurances 343 gave them, that the game would be out on time if they had x length of dev time to do it, and the whole ten year plan thing. Microsoft figured it would work, and they ended up with a twice delayed game unfinished at launch, split in two, and is losing player numbers as fast as Halo 4 if not faster. Now with Season 3 delayed until 2023 and Forge and Co-op delayed, with local co-op nixed.
I don't think MS saw this coming given they gave them 5 YEARS to develop the game.
ZehDon
Member
... what? Factions could be a steaming pile of trash - literally, the worst game Sony has ever put out - and Naughty Dog's output would still be better than 343i's by a wide, wide, wide margin. 343i has had ten years with Halo, and every game they've made has been worse than the one before it. After Halo 5 nearly killed the series, the bar was on the fucking ground. With Infinite, 343i brought a shovel.
Right now, 343i are planning to: cancel split-screen co-op, move to 10 month seasons, use cut-content as Battle Pass rewards, ship Forge maps as replacements for actual maps, delay every single major feature, resolve exactly zero major issues, ignore single player and PvE content entirely, and shove microtransactions into eight year old games. At this point, Infinite isn't just a dead body of a once great hero, it's the hero's rotten course flung over the battlements via a catapult that now simply needs to be burned in order to save what's left of the Castle.
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Eddie-Griffin
Banned
Just move the staff to Publisher, Powerpoint, and Word. There's still a place for them at Microsoft. maybe have a few of the good ones stay to code some floor tiles on some maps, maybe a skybox or two.
Ozzy Onya A2Z
Member
Halo 4, MCC, Halo 5 and Infinite.
At what point does Xbox shake things up at 343? The track record of Bonnie and co at the helm speaks for itself. Time for some real vision with Halo.
Missing key features, promised ones even (raytracing, local coop, forge, mods), is a huge rolling tragedy in of itself. Now pile on missing industry leading features such as Battle Royale, PvE, campaign expansion, sustain every month/quarter and more.
Yes it's time for a new 343 studio head and management. Objectively there is a decade of under performing and problematic Halo games under Bonnie's 343.
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ChorizoPicozo
Member
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Eddie-Griffin
Banned
It is pointless to continue waiting for nothing. I will be trading in Halo for MS Flight Simulator and another game possibly today as I head home. This recent news just makes the decision even easier.
I guess I will do MS Flight and Psychonauts 2, I already have Horizon 5, that'll give me 3 great games from 3 competent MS studios. Who deliver what's promised, give us transparency, don't insult fans intelligence, don't delay or cancel features that should be basic, and have players who play it, have more players because people actually want to play them.
Plus, I have gamepass so I have it for free anyway. The physical version is pointless.
I guess I will do MS Flight and Psychonauts 2, I already have Horizon 5, that'll give me 3 great games from 3 competent MS studios. Who deliver what's promised, give us transparency, don't insult fans intelligence, don't delay or cancel features that should be basic, and have players who play it, have more players because people actually want to play them.
Plus, I have gamepass so I have it for free anyway. The physical version is pointless.
Apocryphon
Member
People will still defend this bullshit. The writing has been on the wall for a couple of years for these fuckers. Too much design by committee nonsense. I think Halo has lost its identity and will struggle to recover now.
fuck_diggity_cunt_ingdon
Banned
I tend to lurk on these Halo thread without posting because:
A) I enjoy the game but maybe don’t play it enough to justify an opinion
B) despite working in the film industry im sure my knowledge of production, development, etc etc is vastly different to that of game production
Having said that, I’m a little confused as to how a company of Microsoft’s size, who owns a production/dev studio the size of 343i, who they would have (I’m assuming) given an adequate budget to develop and produce a product, which went through (I’m assuming) a rigorous r&d phase would allow things to decline so much in the eyes of the core player base.
The player base which fundamentally is the back bone to the community which supports not only the ongoing popularity of the IP but is essentially the best post release gauge of the state of the product produced in the first place.
I’d like to think someone, somewhere is thinking “this isn’t going well, something needs to be corrected and someone needs to be held accountable for how we got here”
Because everyone keeps stupidly barking “disband 343” but the majority are clearly very talented, hard working individuals. But someone, or some group will be to blame here and wether it’s a bunch of suits or an individual - surely, SURELY someone higher up is thinking “they’ve gotta be replaced”
Just my thoughts. Ignore if it sounded like nonsense of if I’ve missed some huge piece of the puzzle.
A) I enjoy the game but maybe don’t play it enough to justify an opinion
B) despite working in the film industry im sure my knowledge of production, development, etc etc is vastly different to that of game production
Having said that, I’m a little confused as to how a company of Microsoft’s size, who owns a production/dev studio the size of 343i, who they would have (I’m assuming) given an adequate budget to develop and produce a product, which went through (I’m assuming) a rigorous r&d phase would allow things to decline so much in the eyes of the core player base.
The player base which fundamentally is the back bone to the community which supports not only the ongoing popularity of the IP but is essentially the best post release gauge of the state of the product produced in the first place.
I’d like to think someone, somewhere is thinking “this isn’t going well, something needs to be corrected and someone needs to be held accountable for how we got here”
Because everyone keeps stupidly barking “disband 343” but the majority are clearly very talented, hard working individuals. But someone, or some group will be to blame here and wether it’s a bunch of suits or an individual - surely, SURELY someone higher up is thinking “they’ve gotta be replaced”
Just my thoughts. Ignore if it sounded like nonsense of if I’ve missed some huge piece of the puzzle.
HoodWinked
Member
I dont think that they are though. Halo Infinite is not a particularly good looking game. And they're not that hard working judging from the constant delays, if anything they've over-corrected and seem to have a culture where "mental health" has become their mantra and bulwark. That stuff is poison because when you see others not working that just makes you feel like a sucker for working hard. Delaying season 3 is perplexing as seasonal content is supposed to be the easy part, some maps, and cosmetics how hard can that possibly be, and yet they can't manage to do that with 500 employees lol.
Zathalus
Member
Its a pity, Halo Infinite was really good at launch but 343 has been so incompetent that any good will and player number retention has been pissed away in the wind.
The fucking disaster of the Halo TV series is the final bullet to the head to have killed my interest in any Halo games going forward.
The next game really out to fucking spectacular for me to give a shit about it, but knowing 343s track record I doubt it would come to pass.
The fucking disaster of the Halo TV series is the final bullet to the head to have killed my interest in any Halo games going forward.
The next game really out to fucking spectacular for me to give a shit about it, but knowing 343s track record I doubt it would come to pass.
MOTM
Banned
Have you ever worked a corporate job in your life? No disrespect but you sound like either you’re still in school or you’ve only worked manual jobs.
Himuro
Member
Halo 3 came out during the big days of CoD and competed heavily. What are you talking about?
This is a bizarre statement. Halo was never known for being a PC title.
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HoodWinked
Member
Himuro
Member
Having not played Apex could you please expound upon this and how it relates to Halo?
‘Big days’ for COD started with Modern Warfare (released same year as Halo 3), and the userbase started to ramp up from there.
Between MW2 and Black Ops, COD grew to the major juggernaut it is today. You imagine it wasn’t going to leech users from Halo?
You should re-read my comment for better context. I don’t believe you got it.
Razvedka
Banned
How does one have 750+ employees and fail to produce much of anything when given years and a huge budget? At this point, just give it to a small or medium studio of some dedicated professionals and see what they churn out. Alot of things don't scale with size, and at a certain point (IMO) software doesn't either.
MOTM
Banned
Yeah thought sodafuq is this noise. you literally just went 0/3
DaedalusGrim
Banned
D2 is one of the best FPS on the market hands down. The PvP sucks but the gameplay itself is miles ahead of Infinite.
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CuNi
Member
Funny, to me it sounds like either you just Googled how a corporate job should be or are yourself in a extremely toxic one but since it was your first job u stick with it because that's how it's supposed to be right?
.I don't know what 343i are doing at this point. Even no man's sky turned itself around slowly with only a handful of people, so how can they achieve something that supposedly 750 man cannot do?
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chromhound
Member
i don't see one black lady. I just solve the problemBe sincere, do you believe this team can make a good shooter?
Eddie-Griffin
Banned
The part you are missing is that, the presentation they showed of Infinite before the planned 2020 release was met by fury that 343 was not expecting, so MS wouldn't have been in the know of how things were going until after they went back to upgrade the graphics and then rereleased in 2021, because everyone expected them to follow a road map, not to make false promises, lie to fans, have no content prepared, and fall further behind than they did.
The second Microsoft gave them a chance with this live service game Infinite with a 10 year plan, Microsoft took a risk that things wouldn't get to this point and probably wouldn't have expected it. If they have a replacement lineup to deal with the franchise, or a restructuring coming up assuming they had been looking into it since lunch may take another few months to get moving, if not more.
Calling the 343 team talented is a mixed wedge as well, because there's clearly more wrong with how Halo has been handled over the years than top suit decisions, some of the decisions were made from within the core staff, some game design or content delays had little to do with management, the failure belongs to the whole studio not just some people. If you pretend that everything would be fixed by just changing a few top staff, than you've been ignoring the changes that have already occurred over the years in important leadership positions and nothing has gotten better.
Outside of a minor fraction it didn't leech much from Halo at all, because they were not FPS targeting the same audience with the same gameplay meahcnics or design goals. Halo was still a big deal after Halo 3, while Halo 3 was still selling millions you had ODS still selling millions, War still selling millions, and Reach selling millions. You also had the 360 version of Halo 2 get a bump, and 343's first game Halo 1 remake received benefit from the IP's streght as well though not as much.
Where Halo started losing ground not just to COD, but in general, was Halo 4, which sold fast, looked good (mostly) and had a larger marketing army with tons of previews, and reviews, and merchandise lines up, with new lore. But the lroe got screwed up, plot holes were added to the story, the level design was changed, and you saw the series taking more cues from COD and other FPS games at the time which harmed Halo's identity. Player counts were dropping fast not too far in the games lifecycle.
Halo MCC was a mess, and Halo 5 was supposed to be the comeback because it was supposed to bring the MP and SP back to traditional Halo, it didn't, and added the boost silliness and other strange decisions. it was better than 4's, yes, but it wasn't want people wanted.
So when you fail a 3rd time with Halo Infinite, which had the idea right but they never fixed it up to be great, and stopped updating the game with content which is hilarious given it's a live service game, I think it's clear that after 3 chances it's just not going to happen. Now Halo as a whole has suffered a lot of damage that needs to be fixed sooner than later, or we will see permanent degradation (liek Sonic.)
343 only has about 50 people? Well that explains their lack of output.Be sincere, do you believe this team can make a good shooter?
lefty1117
Gold Member
I don't like talk about disbanding companies and firing people. These are people with families and bills and stuff. Still though it's yet another thing in a series of poor news. Like they can't get out of their own way. I wonder what Phil is thinking. This should have been his flagship XSX product and Gamepass seller. At the end of the day you've got to perform.