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"I Need a New PC!" 2014 Part 2. Read OP, your 2500K will run Witcher 3. MX100s! 970!

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kennah

Member
I like the 21" monitor, it's ideal for me, I can still take it from uni to home without too much hassle, anything larger than that monitor I don't really care for.

I don't mind about upgrading, essentially for me it would be nice to play backlogged games on a decent setting and be able to use production suites. I understand that too, but I'm not too knowledged up on all the latest PC tech, you could throw a CPU chip name at me and it would mean nothing to me, I definitely don't want a gaming rig that is big and bulky, and definitely don't mean I want to game on it meaning I want to play future games at highest quality etc.

So what I'm asking is, with that in mind, and the graphics chip that's in it (the Geforce GT 750M 1GB), will this allow me to play games like Alan Wake/Skyrim/Metro at ultra or at least high settings even if it's 30FPS, and if so is paying more for the i7 quad-core overkill and the i5 will allow me to play them the same and still use the machine for rendering and design etc. That's all I need to know, not looking to build a future proofed gaming rig that I can swap components out because I'm a console gamer anyway. Thanks :)
If you're coming in here asking permission to buy the imac then go for it.

i5 vs i7 you will see some productivity differences and osx is very good at spreading loads between cor s. It'll also help the computer last a little longer. The 750m is the most basic card that can still do some acceleration. It'll 'play' stuff, probably not at a fantastic level, and it won't cut your render times all that much.

TThe current imac aren't that great a purchase for the money, but hey, you've got your reasons, you don't need us to tell you its OK to do. But it's ok to do.

Edit - you'd probably get different advice from the Mac Hardware thread in the OT

And if you do buy Mac, make sure to buy from the refurbished site. Hundreds cheaper, exact same warranty
 

Smokey

Member
Seriously. You should buy it so you can have an idea of what kinds of draw you are working with, how much SC vs Stock adds, how much your OC adds, and when the issues start cropping up so you have an idea of where you stand and what PSU you need.

Things like my OC 290'd at max drawing over 3x the power of my 670 for instance :p

Yeah I know. This crossed my mind earlier in the day. I called EVGA and made some posts first because it's free :p , but a Kill A Watt is next logical step before dropping $400 on a PSU :x
 

tarheel91

Member
heard a lot of not so good things about the ax1500. do you know if the i version a revised model?

Completely different model. First PSU to get a 10/10 from JonnyGuru. Coincidentally (or not so much) the only other model to get a 10/10 is the EVGA Supernova P2 1200W (1600W version hasn't been reviewed yet).
 

wowzors

Member
I posted a little earlier about this problem but have decided to go a different route now, directly into the receiver. New problems have arisen :(

My pc hooked up to my receiver (Denon 4520) and in windows it shows that my receiver supports dolby digital and dts-hd, etc. However when i play a game or a movie my receiver shows Multi Channel In. Is there some hidden way to force bitstream? I dont understand why its only outputting in multi channel.

The graphics card is plugged into a Monitor via VGA/DVI and to my TV via HDMI into the receiver. The sound is going through the HDMI to the receivier, but it keeps outputting Multi Channel In and not Dolby Digital, I have set my configuration to 5.1 in Windows (I chose the 5.1 set up with the speakers in the back not the sides).
 

bro1

Banned
Yeah I know. This crossed my mind earlier in the day. I called EVGA and made some posts first because it's free :p , but a Kill A Watt is next logical step before dropping $400 on a PSU :x

You might as well pull the trigger and buy it now because in the end you know you will anyway.

I'm shocked at how much power a small OC can change the overall draw on a system. My AX860i wasn't enough to support my GTX 780 TI Classified SuperClocked from EVGA along with my H100i, 3 hard drives, blu ray, and 3570K at 4.2. I had to go to 1200 and even that I have concerns about. Really thinking about selling these cards to get two 980's when the larger RAM versions come out.
 

knitoe

Member
I posted a little earlier about this problem but have decided to go a different route now, directly into the receiver. New problems have arisen :(

My pc hooked up to my receiver (Denon 4520) and in windows it shows that my receiver supports dolby digital and dts-hd, etc. However when i play a game or a movie my receiver shows Multi Channel In. Is there some hidden way to force bitstream? I dont understand why its only outputting in multi channel.

The graphics card is plugged into a Monitor via VGA/DVI and to my TV via HDMI into the receiver. The sound is going through the HDMI to the receivier, but it keeps outputting Multi Channel In and not Dolby Digital, I have set my configuration to 5.1 in Windows (I chose the 5.1 set up with the speakers in the back not the sides).
The TV may only be sending stereo to your receiver. Why not do PC > Receiver > TV? If you don't have enough HDMI ports on your Receiver, buy / add a HDMI switch.
 

knavish

Member
I posted a little earlier about this problem but have decided to go a different route now, directly into the receiver. New problems have arisen :(

My pc hooked up to my receiver (Denon 4520) and in windows it shows that my receiver supports dolby digital and dts-hd, etc. However when i play a game or a movie my receiver shows Multi Channel In. Is there some hidden way to force bitstream? I dont understand why its only outputting in multi channel.

The graphics card is plugged into a Monitor via VGA/DVI and to my TV via HDMI into the receiver. The sound is going through the HDMI to the receivier, but it keeps outputting Multi Channel In and not Dolby Digital, I have set my configuration to 5.1 in Windows (I chose the 5.1 set up with the speakers in the back not the sides).

the only thing i can recommend is to go through your recievers set up process again and see if there is an option there.
 

garath

Member
I posted a little earlier about this problem but have decided to go a different route now, directly into the receiver. New problems have arisen :(

My pc hooked up to my receiver (Denon 4520) and in windows it shows that my receiver supports dolby digital and dts-hd, etc. However when i play a game or a movie my receiver shows Multi Channel In. Is there some hidden way to force bitstream? I dont understand why its only outputting in multi channel.

The graphics card is plugged into a Monitor via VGA/DVI and to my TV via HDMI into the receiver. The sound is going through the HDMI to the receivier, but it keeps outputting Multi Channel In and not Dolby Digital, I have set my configuration to 5.1 in Windows (I chose the 5.1 set up with the speakers in the back not the sides).

By multi-channel do you mean it is outputting to all 5 speakers or is it just outputting to 2 speakers again?

If it's outputting to 5 channel ok, then it's probably sending a PCM signal instead of a bitstream. The linear PCM signal means the computer will do the decoding of the audio and send the signal directly to the receiver. This isn't a bad thing. I'd look through menus and settings and try to find an option to set it to bitstream if you really want the receiver doing the decoding though.

For an example, I have my PS3 set to output Linear PCM 5.1. The PS3 does the decoding, including the lossless TrueHD or DTS-HD and sends it to my receiver. My receiver just reads it as a PCM 5.1 channel input. If I had a newer slim model, it could send the lossless audio through bitstream and I could set it to Linear PCM or bitstream and still get the lossless audio on my receiver but my old phat can't so I leave it PCM.

edit: What video card do you have?
 

riflen

Member
You might as well pull the trigger and buy it now because in the end you know you will anyway.

I'm shocked at how much power a small OC can change the overall draw on a system. My AX860i wasn't enough to support my GTX 780 TI Classified SuperClocked from EVGA along with my H100i, 3 hard drives, blu ray, and 3570K at 4.2. I had to go to 1200 and even that I have concerns about. Really thinking about selling these cards to get two 980's when the larger RAM versions come out.

That's weird. I'm using an HX850 to run 2 x EVGA 780 Ti SC (both overclocked a little), a 3570K @ 4.6, 10 fans, a pump, Blu-Ray, two SSDs and 4 x DDR3 DIMMS. I've never had a problem with power delivery or stability.
 
Well my HD6850 just isn't enough anymore and playing SoM with it isn't very enjoyable. I really want a 280X but can't afford it right. I came across a used GTX 760 for $130 on Craigslist. Is that a good deal you think?
 
Can anyone recommend a decent midsize tower that can hold SLI 670s (EVGA blower model)? I might throw together a mighty htpc after upgrading to 970s on my main rig.
 

wowzors

Member
By multi-channel do you mean it is outputting to all 5 speakers or is it just outputting to 2 speakers again?

If it's outputting to 5 channel ok, then it's probably sending a PCM signal instead of a bitstream. The linear PCM signal means the computer will do the decoding of the audio and send the signal directly to the receiver. This isn't a bad thing. I'd look through menus and settings and try to find an option to set it to bitstream if you really want the receiver doing the decoding though.

For an example, I have my PS3 set to output Linear PCM 5.1. The PS3 does the decoding, including the lossless TrueHD or DTS-HD and sends it to my receiver. My receiver just reads it as a PCM 5.1 channel input. If I had a newer slim model, it could send the lossless audio through bitstream and I could set it to Linear PCM or bitstream and still get the lossless audio on my receiver but my old phat can't so I leave it PCM.

edit: What video card do you have?

Exactly what you are saying my PC is sending 5 channel but i believe it is doing the decoding, I would rather my receiver decode and output in DTS or Dolby rather than PCM 5.1. is there anywhere in windows 8.1 or the nvidia control pannel to set the computer to not decode.
 

garath

Member
Exactly what you are saying my PC is sending 5 channel but i believe it is doing the decoding, I would rather my receiver decode and output in DTS or Dolby rather than PCM 5.1. is there anywhere in windows 8.1 or the nvidia control pannel to set the computer to not decode.

That's a tough one. I'm not familiar with that setup. I'd guess its somewhere in the windows sound settings. Might be in the nvidia panel but more likely windows.
 

bro1

Banned
I don't even know if that monster will fit in my case - Air 540.

I have the same case and the only concern we are going to have is height due to the wedge that keeps the PSU in place. You can adjust the length as much as you want.
 

Godot

Neo Member
Ok, I'm going to build a new PC since like ten years ago, so I've got a few questions. I'm going to use it basically for for gaming and recording some gameplay videos: is the i5 4690 still good or would you reccomend the i7 4790 for that purpose?
About overclocking, I never tried it but I may learn about it if necessary, but I still do not realize if it is really worth it and how strong the benefit would be for the above-mentioned CPUs.
What if I buy the basic models and spend the difference plus the cost of the heatsink for a GPU better than the GTX 760? Is it a bad idea?
 

bro1

Banned
Exactly what you are saying my PC is sending 5 channel but i believe it is doing the decoding, I would rather my receiver decode and output in DTS or Dolby rather than PCM 5.1. is there anywhere in windows 8.1 or the nvidia control pannel to set the computer to not decode.

PCM is fine and there is no difference on what does the decode. it will sound the same either way.
 

bro1

Banned
Ok, I'm going to build a new PC since like ten years ago, so I've got a few questions. I'm going to use it basically for for gaming and recording some gameplay videos: is the i5 4690 still good or would you reccomend the i7 4790 for that purpose?
About overclocking, I never tried it but I may learn about it if necessary, but I still do not realize if it is really worth it and how strong the benefit would be for the above-mentioned CPUs.
What if I buy the basic models and spend the difference plus the cost of the heatsink for a GPU better than the GTX 760? Is it a bad idea?
For gaming stick with the i5. You won't see much difference between the two.
 
Looking for something that I can play the latest or near latest games on and run the adobe suite, found this mac with these specs:

Hardware
3.1GHz Quad-core Intel Core i7, Turbo Boost up to 3.9GHz
8GB 1600MHz DDR3 SDRAM - 2X4GB
1TB Serial ATA Drive @ 5400 rpm
NVIDIA GeForce GT 750M 1GB GDDR5

For £1195

21 inch monitor which for me is ideal, good, bad, able to do what I want, yes no? Opinions pklease, want to purchase something soon, thanks gaf!

I'd say no. If you're buying for Adobe you're gonna want more than 8GBs of RAM and an SSD. Honestly, it's not a good buy. I bought my wife (Ad design) a Macbook Pro with the 750M, i7, 16GBs RAM and 500GB of the embedded NAND Flash memory (basically an embedded SSD) that's about right and cost around $2500. (~1551GBP)(She has external storage for her work, so she only needs what she's currently working on saved on the Macbook) I wouldn't waste my money on anything less than that for the price, especially if you're using Adobe. You could build something a WHOLE HELL of a lot better with the same amount of money, though. The only reason she got a Macbook Pro was because the magazine she worked at used Macs exclusively.
 

TMONSTER

Member
There is one weird thing about my new screen though... It does seem to output slightly incorrect refresh rates.

E.g.

At 60hz v-sync will lock me at 59fps
At 85hz v-sync will lock me at 80fps
At 144hz v-sync will lock me at 140fps

I mean... Due to G-Sync this is not really visible, but it's not correct either. Return that shit? :/

It's working as intended, when gsync first came out it was shown that it had input lag similar to vsync if it was allowed hit against the monitors refresh rate. Nvidia fixed it by capping fps 1-3 below the refresh rate.
 

TMONSTER

Member
Asking around at other forums and speaking with EVGA themselves today...they seem to think I am hitting the limit on my EVGA G2 1300w PSU and that is why I am having issues.

I was given this link from another forum to support their case.

3x Titan Blacks are at 1100w recommended...and that is for the stock version. I have Superclock. Plus 4930k .

1408.gif

I really doubt that smokey, when I had three volt modded titans on custom water with a oced 3930k @4.4 I was pulling 1300 max from the wall. Unless your PSU is faulty it should be fine.
 
Chaps,

I want to flash the second bios on my 780Ti Classy.

I really don't have a clue what to do but i'm going to look at some guides.

From what i've seen so far i use something called NVFlash and a BIOS downloaded from the internet.

Is there a known "best" bios to go for? I see people taking about the Skynet one?

Any and all help totally appreciated :)
 
Hi guys, I wanted some advice from you!
Here's my current config:
Case : Midi Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus ATX Black
RAM : DDR3 Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 1600MHz 8GB (2x4GB) CL9
CPU : Intel Core i5-2500 3.30GHz Socket 1155 95W
CPU Cooler: Arctic Cooling Freezer 13 Socket Intel Amd
GPU: MSI Radeon HD 6950 Core 850MHz Memory GDDR5 5200MHz 2GB DVI HDMI
Motherboard : Asus P8Z68-V/GEN3 Socket 1155 Intel Z68 DDR3 SATA3 USB3 ATX
PSU: OCZ ZT Series 650W ATX 80Plus Bronze

Now the question:
Will I be able to eventually upgrade my GPU (and maybe CPU) without the need to change anything else?
 

mkenyon

Banned
Chaps,

I want to flash the second bios on my 780Ti Classy.

I really don't have a clue what to do but i'm going to look at some guides.

From what i've seen so far i use something called NVFlash and a BIOS downloaded from the internet.

Is there a known "best" bios to go for? I see people taking about the Skynet one?

Any and all help totally appreciated :)
Check out the Overclock.net 780 Ti Classy Owners Club. There's guides and BIOS versions in there.
Hi guys, I wanted some advice from you!
Here's my current config:
Case : Midi Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus ATX Black
RAM : DDR3 Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 1600MHz 8GB (2x4GB) CL9
CPU : Intel Core i5-2500 3.30GHz Socket 1155 95W
CPU Cooler: Arctic Cooling Freezer 13 Socket Intel Amd
GPU: MSI Radeon HD 6950 Core 850MHz Memory GDDR5 5200MHz 2GB DVI HDMI
Motherboard : Asus P8Z68-V/GEN3 Socket 1155 Intel Z68 DDR3 SATA3 USB3 ATX
PSU: OCZ ZT Series 650W ATX 80Plus Bronze

Now the question:
Will I be able to eventually upgrade my GPU (and maybe CPU) without the need to change anything else?
You could buy a used 2500K or 2600K to upgrade the CPU, but nothing new.

Yes, you can upgrade the GPU.
 
Hi guys, I wanted some advice from you!
Here's my current config:
Case : Midi Cooler Master HAF 912 Plus ATX Black
RAM : DDR3 Corsair Vengeance CMZ8GX3M2A1600C9 1600MHz 8GB (2x4GB) CL9
CPU : Intel Core i5-2500 3.30GHz Socket 1155 95W
CPU Cooler: Arctic Cooling Freezer 13 Socket Intel Amd
GPU: MSI Radeon HD 6950 Core 850MHz Memory GDDR5 5200MHz 2GB DVI HDMI
Motherboard : Asus P8Z68-V/GEN3 Socket 1155 Intel Z68 DDR3 SATA3 USB3 ATX
PSU: OCZ ZT Series 650W ATX 80Plus Bronze

Now the question:
Will I be able to eventually upgrade my GPU (and maybe CPU) without the need to change anything else?
Kind of similar to my setup. 2500K, P8Z68-V Pro, 6950 2GB. And yeah, no problem upgrading your GPU.
 
Check out the Overclock.net 780 Ti Classy Owners Club. There's guides and BIOS versions in there.
.

Any idea which one of these is the best?

EVGA 780 TI CLASSIFIED BIOS'S


EVGA 780 Ti Classified skyn3t rev.1

skyn3trev.1bios.zip 271k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified ftw2002 bios

FTW_2002.zip 134k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified EVGA bios

Xti.zip 134k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified skyn3t bios rev.2 (evga official fix bios rev.)

skyn3trev.2bios.zip 271k .zip file
 
Check out the Overclock.net 780 Ti Classy Owners Club. There's guides and BIOS versions in there.

You could buy a used 2500K or 2600K to upgrade the CPU, but nothing new.

Yes, you can upgrade the GPU.
What do you mean by nothing new? Like new i7 CPUs won't run/be compatible?

Kind of similar to my setup. 2500K, P8Z68-V Pro, 6950 2GB. And yeah, no problem upgrading your GPU.

So for example if I wanna buy an hd7950 or the nVIDIA equivalent I'll be fine?
 

wowzors

Member
PCM is fine and there is no difference on what does the decode. it will sound the same either way.

PCM doesnt really sound as good to me as DTS-HD or other formats. Do i need to download a codec for my PC to understand said audio codecs?
 

mkenyon

Banned
What do you mean by nothing new? Like new i7 CPUs won't run/be compatible?


So for example if I wanna buy an hd7950 or the nVIDIA equivalent I'll be fine?
That's correct. 1155 is a dead socket. Intel only releases two versions of chips per socket. For yours, it was SandyBridge and IvyBridge. Haswell is the newest, and it is on socket 1150.

Yes, any new GPU is compatible.
Any idea which one of these is the best?

EVGA 780 TI CLASSIFIED BIOS'S


EVGA 780 Ti Classified skyn3t rev.1

skyn3trev.1bios.zip 271k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified ftw2002 bios

FTW_2002.zip 134k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified EVGA bios

Xti.zip 134k .zip file

EVGA 780 Ti Classified skyn3t bios rev.2 (evga official fix bios rev.)

skyn3trev.2bios.zip 271k .zip file
Probably the newest skyn3t BIOS?
 
That's correct. 1155 is a dead socket. Intel only releases two versions of chips per socket. For yours, it was SandyBridge and IvyBridge. Haswell is the newest, and it is on socket 1150.

Yes, any new GPU is compatible.
thanks, so basically any CPU that's SandyBridge or IvyBridge (or that runs on socket 1155)?
If I'm not mistaken Haswell should be the really new one right?
For example a Intel Core i7-3770 should be good (it's better than an i5 2500 I think?) and run on my config if I understand correctly
 

Flaxh

Member
[Basic Desktop Questions]
Your Current Specs: none
Budget: 1100/1200€ Portugal
Main Use: Rate 5 Gaming, 3 Streaming games in HD, 5 General Usage
Monitor Resolution: 1080p
List SPECIFIC games or applications that you MUST be able to run well: 60FPS minimum
Looking to reuse any parts?: SSD and the 2 HDDs listed
When will you build?: next week
Will you be overclocking?: Yes, nothing extreme

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($225.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($32.99 @ Mwave)
Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LP 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($96.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Crucial M500 120GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($68.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($80.00 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($80.00 @ Amazon)
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 970 4GB WINDFORCE Video Card ($369.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Corsair 300R ATX Mid Tower Case ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: XFX 650W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Monitor: Asus VN248H 23.8" Monitor ($207.58 @ Newegg)
Total: $1422.49
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-02 13:48 EDT-0400

I posted here this week that a friend of mine broke his laptop and was looking for a desktop but the deal I mentioned was a fluke so he moved on to building his own rig. What would you guys change? We dont know much about mobos.
 

TronLight

Everybody is Mikkelsexual
I have a GTX 570 and 4GB of RAM.

I'm thinking about upgrading the GPU to a 970 in a few months, but today I realized that I probably have too little RAM for the future.

What would you do first, upgrade the RAM or the GPU?
From my perspective, the most logical thing seems to be GPU first and RAM down the line. Because RAM hasn't been a bottleneck yet, and I know that the number of games that are going to use a 64bit executable it's only going to increase but I think I could be able to get along for at least a year before reaching a point where the situation gets unsustainable. Add to that that RAM prices seem to have raised like crazy lately, I remember that in 2011 8GB where way cheaper (on an hindsight, I should have gone with 8GB from the beginning).
The GPU instead, is already showing it's age, for max settings at 1080/60fps that is.
 

mkenyon

Banned
thanks, so basically any CPU that's SandyBridge or IvyBridge (or that runs on socket 1155)?
If I'm not mistaken Haswell should be the really new one right?
For example a Intel Core i7-3770 should be good (it's better than an i5 2500 I think?) and run on my config if I understand correctly
You want a "K" CPU. Like 3770K. But yes.
[Basic Desktop Questions]
Your Current Specs: none
Budget: 1100/1200€ Portugal
Main Use: Rate 5 Gaming, 3 Streaming games in HD, 5 General Usage
Monitor Resolution: 1080p
List SPECIFIC games or applications that you MUST be able to run well: 60FPS minimum
Looking to reuse any parts?: SSD and the 2 HDDs listed
When will you build?: next week
Will you be overclocking?: Yes, nothing extreme

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant

CPU: Intel Core i5-4690K 3.5GHz Quad-Core Processor ($225.98 @ SuperBiiz)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($32.99 @ Mwave)
Motherboard: ASRock Z97 Extreme3 ATX LGA1150 Motherboard ($119.99 @ Newegg)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance LP 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($96.99 @ Amazon)
Storage: Crucial M500 120GB 2.5" Solid State Drive ($68.99 @ NCIX US)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($80.00 @ Amazon)
Storage: Seagate Barracuda 500GB 3.5" 7200RPM Internal Hard Drive ($80.00 @ Amazon)
Video Card: Gigabyte GeForce GTX 970 4GB WINDFORCE Video Card ($369.99 @ Amazon)
Case: Corsair 300R ATX Mid Tower Case ($69.99 @ Amazon)
Power Supply: XFX 650W 80+ Bronze Certified ATX Power Supply ($69.99 @ NCIX US)
Monitor: Asus VN248H 23.8" Monitor ($207.58 @ Newegg)
Total: $1422.49
Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available
Generated by PCPartPicker 2014-10-02 13:48 EDT-0400

I posted here this week that a friend of mine broke his laptop and was looking for a desktop but the deal I mentioned was a fluke so he moved on to building his own rig. What would you guys change? We dont know much about mobos.
I'd drop one of the hard drives for a 144Hz panel or bigger SSD.
 
Has anyone compared the enthoo pro to the define r4? Before the enthoo came out I was thinking about the r4 and I'm curious how they stack up now that the pro has been out for a bit.
 
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